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Paladin Suggestions Thread
starrlight
Member Posts: 39 Arc User
I caught wind somewhere (I think?) that paladins might be the next class to get looked at. I wanted to suggest some updates that may help to level the playing field for them. I main pally and can get through most content just fine! But certain content is a lot harder and there's some small, conditional things that I think would really help the class to enjoy the runs more.
Healer
Tank
And if I'm wrong about the rework order, I guess.... for future reference?
Healer
- Set "Lay on Hands" daily to immediately apply to the player with the least health. This is a great 'oh HAMSTER' heal, but I never use it because it's so tricky to target it in a bind. Paladins do not have any heals (aside from divine shelter) that don't require targeting. It makes them challenging to play in HC content especially
- Don't replace larger shields with smaller ones. At times I'll heal the tank with hand of divinity, then need to toss up a divine shelter for the rest of the group. Doing so punishes me for healing the group, though, because the tank immediately loses that larger shield if they are within range. Shields don't need to stack, but it would be nice if they didn't replace unless the second is greater than the first.
- Related to above ^ but perhaps casting a new heal won't replace the shield, but would refresh the duration it lasts? That seems like a good compromise that would not be broken, the way stacking would be, but that could (slightly) incentivize overlapping healing casts.
- Update "Sanctuary" daily to not be useless on interruption. There's really only 2 instances where I've been able to use it - the charge during the final boss in LOMM and the black holes in VoS. It would be great to be able to use it for things like the LOMM purple worm or the second boss in VoS, both instances where the group might take heavy damage together, but it's impossible when you are getting knocked around. If we could get an option within a feat, even, it would give us an ability that many of the other classes have. (Shield of faith can't compare - it blocks so much less damage and has no HoT).
- Make "Cleansing Touch" an AOE. It is so hard to target for poison removal, especially in trial content. It's fine if the heal only applies to the target, but it would be nice if the cleanse had radius of effect for nearby allies.
Tank
- Decrease the cast time on "Absolution". This one in particular is painful, at least to me, because it's meant to be used strategically but sometimes can't be because there isn't enough time to cast it. I'm a lot more fine with Sacred Weapon and Binding Oath having this since they are damage buffs and are easier to time. Usually, by the time I am able to get "Absolution" off, I've already taken the hit I wanted to mitigate some of.
- Replace "Intimidating Presence" with something better. The increased threat can't compete with the survivability lost (and does not work, apparently?). It would be cool to see it instead maybe offer an alternative method for increased survival. Perhaps, instead of shielding, slightly increased damage and/or threat and some amount of self-heal on hit? Something that still supports a more aggressive play style, but also doesn't entirely remove the "shields = less likely to die" aspect.
And if I'm wrong about the rework order, I guess.... for future reference?
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Comments
————— Still I have a Pally, and also like several of the suggestions above for both Healer & Tank as well!
Some things just need to rethink, perhaps how they approach them...
I think you mean most Aura's are nothing special, they do help; yet could do a little bit more too. Even though using Devine Champion doubles the effectiveness of Aura's; they could use a slight 2% boost up to maybe 2.25% - 2.35% per party member--that be at most from 4%, to instead 4.7% with Devine Champion!
NOTE: (Shield Mechanic) - Block or Raise your shield, absorbing damage from the front of your character up to 40% of your total maximum hitpoints. They should increase Shield to 45% mechanic or block as both often can be hit very hard while using shield; it's not always, yet often you are because of the Divinity which causes loss of Critical Avoidance!
Update: Paladin's can't even attack, while holding up shield like a Guardian Fighter can! They should then increase Devine Champion for Paladin from 50% to 55% too.
Shield of the God's Feat: Also reduces Damage by 25%, yet (often) only lasts 2-3s, sometimes 6s at best.
╘ despite Devine Protector last 12 seconds, many are lucky to cast Daily once, if swinging to keep threat!
╘ Feat Shield of the God's could use clarification on Feat tooltip, should say last half as long when Blocking!
Pally's get hit very hard, there are feats that help improve this, like Shield of the God's for Pally to improve Devine Protector. Yet most don't, or won't use Shield of the God's, simply because it often only lasts 3 seconds, it lasts twice as long if your swinging not Blocking.
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Still the bigger challenge for tanks, is that DPS rush to do damage, even before the Tank has aggro!
╘ While Aura of Valor can help, they needs to increased Valor from 5% reduced threat to 7%.
Still that only benefit's people who are within 30' feet of Paladin so rushing further ahead, won't reduce your threat. Nor can Templars Wrath works to grab Mobs attention, as it blasts out threat to enemies within 8-10' feet in front of the Paladin. Devine Challenger can double the effectiveness from 5% reduced threat, or other Aura's yet not something that can be cast from 80' feet; at best 15' feet in front/behind Palladin. While Smite has a Range of about 50-55' feet and uses Divinity like Templars, tanks take hit to Critical Avoidance the more Divinity drains; and while Vow can also work at slightly longer range at 80' feet. Realize both the later (mostly) target a single Enemy and the 2nd has a lot longer cooldown on it, whereas the first will quickly drain Paladin's Critical Avoidance.
As a result of DPS focus to rush ahead, many tanks have completely stopped using Stamina Bonus, or even Rechange Bonus as Tanks; which is kind of silly; only because most DPS use 2, or even 3 Gladiator's Guile's. Perhaps 2 isn't so bad, yet using 3 doesn't benefit you so much as the Stamina gain only works while you <20% so be prepared to Dodge a lot more! While a tanks focus should be mostly on defense, so recharge speed, or stamina bonus is more beneficial in most fights, even if some might use 'Movement' in their playstyle. Rogue & Ranger used to use Movement all the time, yet would also stay with the group, it's benefit is mostly to avoid getting hit, or getting in & out quickly as that benefits their class. Now everyone tries to use it to get out in front of the tank, as they complete rather than work as a team, trying to TOP the charts. Risk/Reward benefit's one might say...
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I think more groups need to let Tank hit first to get Aggro, then stay closer, or where possible for Tier 4-5 Enemy &/or Mini Bosses, move behind for Combat Advantage, or toward the rear yet still on the side.
@starrlight#7491
If I think of anything else I'll let you know...
I think you are missing key points on the paladin.
Healer:
Our mags are way to low. I understand this was to combat high shielders but the current method does not work. Reason being is with 90% in power/crit sev/ogh and 10% Mw at 9000 weapon damage you basically are healing for 100-150k heals with divine shelter giving 200-225k shields.
This means we have a high chance of not even proc'ing our % to ratings when healing 10-15% more then our Max Hp. (Armour bonus's)
This also means that since we do not have a hot or any other form of "healing" our divine shelter needs to be cast 6 times to heal someone to full (Raid groups have 900k-1m hp now). This is 6+ seconds to heal a team PLUS the added divinity cost.
Ontop of this we now have Rangers shielding for 300-400k which is DOUBLE what our shield can do and thats not even costing them divinity. (I have a ranger with 2mil hp doubling me in tiamat for example)
So to combat this just up the mag heals and put a cap on the shields to 30% of max hp or whatever # they find is that sweet spot ARC wants. Or give 2 mags, 1 for heals 1 for shields.
Shields should also not overwrite the previous shield if its smaller then the current shield. How many times have you RB'd the tank but then had to immediately cast divine shelter for the group just to overwrite the shield you gave the tank?
I propose that the shield overwrites the previous shield if its a higher # shield or refreshes the duration of the current shield if it is not.
The Daily shield of faith only seems to effect 5 people, this is counter productive if you are in a raid. Therefore you cannot protect half the team during DR checks. whereas hollowed ground or the Sw daily are Raid wide heck they are even Instance wide (ie during an HE)
The other daily with the bubble (forget the name) needs ALOT of help. One it has a startup time, this needs to be removed entirely, we have a hard enough time to get into place for DR checks and almost next to impossible to have that daily ready when Dr is needed and its always late. Secondly its a channel, this means you cannot move you cannot heal you cannot do anything (The heal it gives is minimal) If you do get knocked (which is very common in raids) Then you lose the daily, not to mention you may have to move slightly to adjust to DR or mechanics.
Move this to SW/Cleric versions where you just plop it on the ground and let it do its thing. If you want to give it some flavour make it give DR and shields instead of DR and minimal heals. So anybody who stands in it gets DR and then gets a shield every 1 second for the duration of the daily (this would need the above mentioned shield change as it would overwrite any other shields)
As you can see I am talking about Raiding, this is where the paladin SEVERLY drops in efficiency. our 5 man content isnt really the issue as 5 man content there isnt as much DR/Burst damage as raids plus in raids you can afford to have a gimmick char like the Ranger shielder in the 10 people.
Tank
I am pretty happy with tank, I guess. Aggro is a bit of an issue when you have people who are hitting 4m toads etc but usually you can smite to get it back. I am NOT a fan of our Crit avoidance scaling down when we use our smite as smite is our hard taunt. So we hard taunt to make the bad guy hit us but as we do so we lower our crit avoidance making us take more damage? That makes no sense. I would just give us the 10% crit avoidance perm and remove the whole scales with divinity mechanic.
The auras themselves are... ok? I dont feel they are worth mentioning because they all are so irrelevant that they make zero difference if you have them or not. Shame really that Paladins are all about auras but they are all so terrible there is no point to them.
The only real thing I would change and this is a controversial suggestion is the feat that gives free banes to switch to give free templars wrath. Yes bane is our only main ranged aggro (other then smite) but I feel templars wrath would be a mainstay and much better use, the tradeoff is we would have better aoe aggro but less ranged aggro (which really is what paladins are, they dont do ranged)
I wish their at wills were a slightly higher mag but ill live with what they got because its manageable even though it might be slightly below the curve compared to fighters/barbarians.
Il ask how can you say the auras are OK while at the same time saying you don't feel it worth mentioning because you think they make no difference, can't be OK and bad at the same time dude, that said ofc some of the class features make a difference example one literally is needed to turn smite into a hard taunt and the 10 divinity regeneration is usefull but not enough
Note: (Shield Mechanic) - Block or Raise your shield, absorbing damage from the front of your character up to 40% of your total maximum hitpoints. They should increase Shield to 45% block as Pally & Guardian Fighter often can be hit very hard while using shield. Especially given Divinity Drain you can loose 7.5% critical avoidance or possibly slightly more...
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Ancient Dragons often Pounce on Paladin's or the Tank. Getting knocked prone your lucky if first hit you have 20-25% of your health remaining, especially if your Critical Avoidance is lower cause of Divinity! So your often hit very hard then still in fire, acid, or ice, or something else that's a big circle to get out of.
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Update: Paladin's can't even attack, while holding up shield like a Guardian Fighter can! Why they need to rethink at least boost shield mechanic to 45% for both, then add 5% for Devine Champion for Paladin from 50% to 55%.
Shield of the God's Feat: Also says reduces Damage by 25%, yet it only lasts 3s often, sometimes 6s at best if lucky.
╘ This Feat should always last 50-55% at least or 6-7 seconds at least I'd say!
CLASS:
♦ Composure up from 10% to 11.25 - 11.75% Divinity Regeneration.
♦ Devine Retribution from 5% up to 7% Damage as Stamina reduces, it averages to 3.5% here.
AURAS:
♦ Aura of Protection up from 2% to 2.25% - 2.35%, also depends on everyone's Deflect Severity.
♦ Aura of Wrath up from from 2% up to 2.25% - 2.35%, also relies on everyone's Crit Severity.
♦ Aura of Valor up from 5% to 7% reduced threat for Party, as some DPS class do a lot DMG.
Note: They also should extend Smite & Devine Challenger to keep threat longer!
╘ Devine Champion also doubles the effectiveness of your Auras, yet doesn't last terribly long.
♥ Devine Challenger is one I'd not change, yet should enhance to keep threat longer.
I mean you can only use One Aura & One Class power, and some are very underwhelming, they shouldn't however be boosted too much either. Those overall are small changes, yet boost overall party buff from 10% to 11.25% - 11.75%. All these also rely on everyone's severity bonus, for how well they apply to each person too. I'd say those are small, yet relevant changes for to consider for Palladin Class & Aura's. The rest I'd mostly leave as is.
Nice to see you again, Master Yoda.
Auras are a very slippery slope, if you buff them too much then they become a "must have" instead of a "nice to have"... an aura that gives 1% chance to reduce damage by roughly 30% (Aura of protection, 2% chance to deflect (50% of the time) most dps have around 30% deflect sev) is "OK" but it is not substantial enough that warrants someone "wanting" you to use it, but you might as well use it.
It could be neat to make these aura "activate on daily use" for a set period of time and have a substantial buff. for example changing aura of protection to give 5% damage resistance for 15 seconds after a daily use. Or aura of vengeance to deal 100 mag attack (when hit) for 15 seconds after daily use.. etc etc
This way you can make them powerful enough to make a difference but it is now controlled by daily use, with their current use of a permanent effect they can easily tip the scales if buffed too much
So I am not a fan of templars wrath and love Bane. Hence why I said controversial, I am simply going with the paladin esthetic whereas they aren't much of a ranged tank. I like the fact that the paladin "surges with holy might" and explodes around him and that gathers aggro, I also see Bane being a ranged "aoe" pull mechanic and usually bane does not leave my encounter bar (except in raids)
That being said I think moving it to templars wrath would be better and firmly puts Paladins in the "I aggro everything around me" and cannot do much to ranged mobs except via smite and vow.
Buff blessed wanderer so paladins don’t have to do 25% of the damage of other classes if not built for dps.
Remove the devinity vs critical avoidance.
Note: Aura's given to those within 30 feet, and 2% is lower than many class buff's, why slight buff be good here.
╘ I also revised shield block (mechanic) down from 50% to 45% damage reduction with Shield.
The issue most have is loosing the Critical Avoidance as Divinity drains, it can drop it by 7.5% or so...
They should increase Shield Mechanic to 45% block or Shift Key is the more fair option; while I'd like to see it a bit higher; doubt they would do more. So yea some with higher Damage reduction Weapons Enchants, may also hold threat even less often. Yet with Devine Challenger (especially in Trials) you often can die very easily with it enabled, because it so greatly reduces your Critical Avoidance as stated by several others!
This is why I suggested they increase Shield Mechanic for tanks be boosted by +5%.
Auras are a hard call, I mean they all need a change but by what I don't know.
You could have a persistent aura that gives a very slight buff (but would it be worth it?)
You could have an aura "proc" after daily for a set time but have a substantial weight to it during that time
Both could be solid choices, but right now they aren't anything to write home about. I use aura of vengeance and the smite one (something challenger?) These 2 are always on in any group content. I agree the aura is "meh" but its just one of those things that "might as well" since I have nothing better to use and want to use an aura.
What do you guys think of my shield suggestions?
Whatever highest shield overwrites the previous shield or refreshes duration of current shield.
The one that gives Pally's Smite top threat is Devine Challenger, that likely doesn't need revision at all.
It would free up a couple of feats/mechanics for new abilities that could help to balance the class a bit more, would solve the shield replacement issue, and it would up the paladin's ability to heal more effectively across the party in higher-damage situations. Right now a huge pain point on paladin healing is trials, mainly because they just don't hold up in situations where numerous party members are taking heavy damage.
New feats could be around introducing trade-offs or options for HoT or aoe cleanse/cleanse over time? maybe less shield magnitude for an HoT for situations where the extra healing is necessary. I know it's a pain point for a lot of players trying to compete with cleric, but I actually really like the "proactive" healing style of paladin, where we don't get the healing numbers because we are preventing damage instead. (esp since they added the "Shielded" category to the stats)
Anywho, thanks for all the other suggestions so far!