Mod 22 Mase Of Vole - Feed back to devs

tankready · December 2021

hi i was looking at new weapon set of mod 22 and it says 5% more awarness as a tank role can we please get that exchanged for 5% more threat generation as a tank it would seam more logical. i am capped 90% and fully caped on awarnes but tanks lack threat generated weapon sets dps has 7.5% damage boost ones but tanks have no 7.5% threat gen weapons.. ty for reading if your from dev team

wilbur626 · December 2021

I think the playerbase would be better off if we never again saw an item that gave any kind of modifier to threat, due to the non-existant ingame explanation of what threat is and how it works.

callumf · December 2021

wilbur626 said:
I think the playerbase would be better off if we never again saw an item that gave any kind of modifier to threat, due to the non-existant ingame explanation of what threat is and how it works.

or we could get given an explanation

yamioni · December 2021

wilbur626 said:
I think the playerbase would be better off if we never again saw an item that gave any kind of modifier to threat, due to the non-existant ingame explanation of what threat is and how it works.

Do you have an example of a game that does explain it? I've always felt it was rather intuitive and an explanation unnecessary.

wilbur626 · December 2021

> @yamioni#9870 said:
> Do you have an example of a game that does explain it? I've always felt it was rather intuitive and an explanation unnecessary.

Then it must be my lack of understanding, can you please educate me ? How does threat work in neverwinter? How is it calculated? Does everyone generate the same amount of threat?

yamioni · December 2021

wilbur626 said:
> @yamioni#9870 said:
> Do you have an example of a game that does explain it? I've always felt it was rather intuitive and an explanation unnecessary.

Then it must be my lack of understanding, can you please educate me ? How does threat work in neverwinter? How is it calculated? Does everyone generate the same amount of threat?

Sure. Basically, every mob has their own threat list. When you enter combat with it, you're added to that list. When you deal damage to the mob, you gain threat equal to that damage. If you heal another player in combat with that mob, you gain threat equal to that heal. Whoever is on top of the list with the most threat is who gets slapped. You can see (vaguely) where you are on the list with your current target by looking at the bubble near your nameplate. Red means you're on top and getting slapped, yellowish-red means you're close to becoming the person getting slapped, yellow means you're generally safe, and green means you can go ham without any worry of getting slapped.

Some classes or specs have abilities that either increase or decrease threat generation. Generally, tanks generate more threat, and healers generate less threat. Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts) and healers have abilities to reduce their current threat.

I am by no means an expert on the classes (I only have six characters, and really only play one spec each,) so you'd need to read through your own abilities to learn what tricks you have available to you. This is, however, how threat generally works in most games, and casual gameplay has shown that Neverwinter isn't any different. The exact values and multipliers are anyone's guess, as they end up getting changed and balanced over time as new gear and content is added and issues arise. I'm led to believe that currently, tank threat generation is too low, so some of the current values may change in the near future.

arazith07 · December 2021

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
> @yamioni#9870 said:
> Do you have an example of a game that does explain it? I've always felt it was rather intuitive and an explanation unnecessary.

Then it must be my lack of understanding, can you please educate me ? How does threat work in neverwinter? How is it calculated? Does everyone generate the same amount of threat?
Sure. Basically, every mob has their own threat list. When you enter combat with it, you're added to that list. When you deal damage to the mob, you gain threat equal to that damage. If you heal another player in combat with that mob, you gain threat equal to that heal. Whoever is on top of the list with the most threat is who gets slapped. You can see (vaguely) where you are on the list with your current target by looking at the bubble near your nameplate. Red means you're on top and getting slapped, yellowish-red means you're close to becoming the person getting slapped, yellow means you're generally safe, and green means you can go ham without any worry of getting slapped.

Some classes or specs have abilities that either increase or decrease threat generation. Generally, tanks generate more threat, and healers generate less threat. Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts) and healers have abilities to reduce their current threat.

I am by no means an expert on the classes (I only have six characters, and really only play one spec each,) so you'd need to read through your own abilities to learn what tricks you have available to you. This is, however, how threat generally works in most games, and casual gameplay has shown that Neverwinter isn't any different. The exact values and multipliers are anyone's guess, as they end up getting changed and balanced over time as new gear and content is added and issues arise. I'm led to believe that currently, tank threat generation is too low, so some of the current values may change in the near future.

I read that tanks have 4.5x base treat. Meaning a DPS needs to do more than 4.5 times the tank's damage (without adding in any additional threat modifiers) in order to take threat.

Now, I don't have a tank that I play, but I would assume that most tanks will time their top of list threat powers sometime after artifacts are called to counter all that DPS aggro gain, the rest of the time, threat should be pretty easy to maintain without the need for external items giving more threat.

yamioni · December 2021

arazith07 said:

I read that tanks have 4.5x base treat. Meaning a DPS needs to do more than 4.5 times the tank's damage (without adding in any additional threat modifiers) in order to take threat.

Now, I don't have a tank that I play, but I would assume that most tanks will time their top of list threat powers sometime after artifacts are called to counter all that DPS aggro gain, the rest of the time, threat should be pretty easy to maintain without the need for external items giving more threat.

I don't play any of my three characters who could tank as tanks, but I mained a tank in WoW years ago. The general strategy I followed there was: taunt to trade with another tank when mechanics required (such as new Demo,) taunt when adds spawn and start slapping the healer, or taunt when DPS couldn't keep it in their pants and pulled threat.

So, it seems the same general strategy applies here as well; try your best, and taunt when necessary (which shouldn't be too often...)

wilbur626 · December 2021

> @yamioni#9870 said:
> Sure. Basically, every mob has their own threat list. When you enter combat with it, you're added to that list. When you deal damage to the mob, you gain threat equal to that damage. If you heal another player in combat with that mob, you gain threat equal to that heal. Whoever is on top of the list with the most threat is who gets slapped. You can see (vaguely) where you are on the list with your current target by looking at the bubble near your nameplate. Red means you're on top and getting slapped, yellowish-red means you're close to becoming the person getting slapped, yellow means you're generally safe, and green means you can go ham without any worry of getting slapped.
>
> Some classes or specs have abilities that either increase or decrease threat generation. Generally, tanks generate more threat, and healers generate less threat. Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts) and healers have abilities to reduce their current threat.
>
> I am by no means an expert on the classes (I only have six characters, and really only play one spec each,) so you'd need to read through your own abilities to learn what tricks you have available to you. This is, however, how threat generally works in most games, and casual gameplay has shown that Neverwinter isn't any different. The exact values and multipliers are anyone's guess, as they end up getting changed and balanced over time as new gear and content is added and issues arise. I'm led to believe that currently, tank threat generation is too low, so some of the current values may change in the near future.

What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?

tankready · December 2021

it would be nice to have a weapon set for tanks with 7.5% threat gen since they have made other weapon sets in the past for dps that do 7.5% more damage to make dps stronger

if they added the threat generation to new weapon sets for the tanks it would help even out the other weapon sets like..
lion heart set,
celesial set,
and few others

for tanks as of right now the jewl of north artifact set gives threat gen but for tanks we have no weapon in neverwinter created yet witch has threat gen and i know the new weapon set gives 7.5% when in combat from our bottom bonus stats but at the bottom there is no threat gen available in that boost stats that would also need to be added to the tank roles witch they have not added yet and i have been waitting for them to add that to tank boost so i can see my threat gen based on gear and weapons as of right now there is no way / % to look at in the boost section under stats

tankready · December 2021

i do under stand that tanks have increased threat through mechanics encounters, feats, at wills, but im talking about the weapon set only every tank class has threat gen abilitys but for we dont have weapon sets with threat gen

cuz my awrness right now on preview is 73k item level with 90% both are green and maxed adding 5% more from weapon set is useless so for me to grind for the new weapon set for just item level is not worth the work nor the time and a lot tanks probly wont bother yeah we get little more hp but with item level being higher next mod i dont need no more item level it would be better to have threat generation added to the weapon set it would be worth grinding for but as of right now i'm not wasteing my time with it since i'm capped on awareness until they change it

wilbur626 · December 2021

You could just swap another of your awareness sources for +% power?

yamioni · December 2021

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?

Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.

jules · December 2021

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.

Now just wait for it

wilbur626 · December 2021

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.

The fact that we keep hearing this is the very reason I think that threat generation should be properly explained in the game.

In my humble opinion the problem is not threat generation itself, it is how players expect it to work.
You give a very good example in your explanation ; "Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts)". Many players expect this to be super awesome tank taunts, while the truth is that this power only places you 10% over the next player on the threat table. If a sub-optimal tank is in a party with DPS with high damage potential, this lead can be caught up with a few powerful attacks.

Examples :

Tank using "top of threat table" power :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses power that puts him on top of threat table, score on threat table = 440.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank loses aggro.

Tank using normal version of the power (no top of threat list feat) :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses encounter power dealing 250.000 damage , score on threat table = 1.125.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank holds aggro.

Other things in the game that should be clarified when it comes to threat generation is ; tank self healing and tank healing party members.

The easiest fix for these complaints of lacking aggro would be tooltips including actual information for tanks.

yamioni · December 2021

wilbur626 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.
The fact that we keep hearing this is the very reason I think that threat generation should be properly explained in the game.

In my humble opinion the problem is not threat generation itself, it is how players expect it to work.
You give a very good example in your explanation ; "Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts)". Many players expect this to be super awesome tank taunts, while the truth is that this power only places you 10% over the next player on the threat table. If a sub-optimal tank is in a party with DPS with high damage potential, this lead can be caught up with a few powerful attacks.

Examples :

Tank using "to of threat table" power :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses power that puts him on top of threat table, score on threat table = 440.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank loses aggro.

Tank using normal version of the power (no top of threat list feat) :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses encounter power dealing 250.000 damage , score on threat table = 1.125.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank holds aggro.

Other things in the game that should be clarified when it comes to threat generation is ; tank self healing and tank healing party members.

The easiest fix for these complaints of lacking aggro would be tooltips including actual information for tanks.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers on taunts, but one would think if they only gave a 10% buffer then the spec feature of "threat generation is increased by 40%" isn't functioning as intended. That 40% should apply to anything that generates threat. It shouldn't set your threat to whatever #1 has +10%, it should be generating threat equal to the difference between the tank and #1, +40%. Granted, the longer the fight goes on and the larger the amount of current threat becomes, the more of a buffer that 10% provides. Which is typically why (good) DPS doesn't go ham and pop all cooldowns at the start of a fight (for non-trivial content, at least.)

Taunts aren't supposed to be used as "Oh HAMSTER" buttons when someone can't keep it in their pants. They're supposed to be for picking up new targets (adds) that you haven't had a chance to build threat on first (to keep them from slapping the healer,) and for swap mechanics in multi-tank setups. If tanks are finding themselves using them on cooldown, then the numbers need fixed. Full stop. Tanks shouldn't have to worry about losing threat as long as they're actively damaging a target; they should be able to refocus their attention on mechanics and making sure everyone else isn't getting slapped.

There's obviously a bit more nuance to it than that, such a 40k tank trying to hold aggro against a 60k DPS (probably going to be hard,) but at comparable gear levels, and especially in the end-game, mechanics and doing a fight correctly should be taking precedence over what are arguably "the basics".

So, I can agree that it would nice if there was an explanation as to how it all gets calculated (for everything, not just threat!!) but I view it as something that shouldn't need explained, because in most situations it should just work.

arazith07 · December 2021

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.
The fact that we keep hearing this is the very reason I think that threat generation should be properly explained in the game.

In my humble opinion the problem is not threat generation itself, it is how players expect it to work.
You give a very good example in your explanation ; "Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts)". Many players expect this to be super awesome tank taunts, while the truth is that this power only places you 10% over the next player on the threat table. If a sub-optimal tank is in a party with DPS with high damage potential, this lead can be caught up with a few powerful attacks.

Examples :

Tank using "to of threat table" power :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses power that puts him on top of threat table, score on threat table = 440.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank loses aggro.

Tank using normal version of the power (no top of threat list feat) :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses encounter power dealing 250.000 damage , score on threat table = 1.125.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank holds aggro.

Other things in the game that should be clarified when it comes to threat generation is ; tank self healing and tank healing party members.

The easiest fix for these complaints of lacking aggro would be tooltips including actual information for tanks.
I'm not sure of the exact numbers on taunts, but one would think if they only gave a 10% buffer then the spec feature of "threat generation is increased by 40%" isn't functioning as intended. That 40% should apply to anything that generates threat. It shouldn't set your threat to whatever #1 has +10%, it should be generating threat equal to the difference between the tank and #1, +40%. Granted, the longer the fight goes on and the larger the amount of current threat becomes, the more of a buffer that 10% provides. Which is typically why (good) DPS doesn't go ham and pop all cooldowns at the start of a fight (for non-trivial content, at least.)

Taunts aren't supposed to be used as "Oh HAMSTER" buttons when someone can't keep it in their pants. They're supposed to be for picking up new targets (adds) that you haven't had a chance to build threat on first (to keep them from slapping the healer,) and for swap mechanics in multi-tank setups. If tanks are finding themselves using them on cooldown, then the numbers need fixed. Full stop. Tanks shouldn't have to worry about losing threat as long as they're actively damaging a target; they should be able to refocus their attention on mechanics and making sure everyone else isn't getting slapped.

There's obviously a bit more nuance to it than that, such a 40k tank trying to hold aggro against a 60k DPS (probably going to be hard,) but at comparable gear levels, and especially in the end-game, mechanics and doing a fight correctly should be taking precedence over what are arguably "the basics".

So, I can agree that it would nice if there was an explanation as to how it all gets calculated (for everything, not just threat!!) but I view it as something that shouldn't need explained, because in most situations it should just work.

That may be how taunts work in other games, but here those top of threat list taunts are meant to be most useful after a DPS burst and not a "Hey new guys, over here". You should be using any ranged encounters to bring new mobs over, or a heal.

Keep in mind that whatever damage the tank does, for threat it's recognized as 4.5x that damage. Or, 4.5x that heal.

yamioni · December 2021

arazith07 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.
The fact that we keep hearing this is the very reason I think that threat generation should be properly explained in the game.

In my humble opinion the problem is not threat generation itself, it is how players expect it to work.
You give a very good example in your explanation ; "Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts)". Many players expect this to be super awesome tank taunts, while the truth is that this power only places you 10% over the next player on the threat table. If a sub-optimal tank is in a party with DPS with high damage potential, this lead can be caught up with a few powerful attacks.

Examples :

Tank using "to of threat table" power :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses power that puts him on top of threat table, score on threat table = 440.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank loses aggro.

Tank using normal version of the power (no top of threat list feat) :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses encounter power dealing 250.000 damage , score on threat table = 1.125.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank holds aggro.

Other things in the game that should be clarified when it comes to threat generation is ; tank self healing and tank healing party members.

The easiest fix for these complaints of lacking aggro would be tooltips including actual information for tanks.
I'm not sure of the exact numbers on taunts, but one would think if they only gave a 10% buffer then the spec feature of "threat generation is increased by 40%" isn't functioning as intended. That 40% should apply to anything that generates threat. It shouldn't set your threat to whatever #1 has +10%, it should be generating threat equal to the difference between the tank and #1, +40%. Granted, the longer the fight goes on and the larger the amount of current threat becomes, the more of a buffer that 10% provides. Which is typically why (good) DPS doesn't go ham and pop all cooldowns at the start of a fight (for non-trivial content, at least.)

Taunts aren't supposed to be used as "Oh HAMSTER" buttons when someone can't keep it in their pants. They're supposed to be for picking up new targets (adds) that you haven't had a chance to build threat on first (to keep them from slapping the healer,) and for swap mechanics in multi-tank setups. If tanks are finding themselves using them on cooldown, then the numbers need fixed. Full stop. Tanks shouldn't have to worry about losing threat as long as they're actively damaging a target; they should be able to refocus their attention on mechanics and making sure everyone else isn't getting slapped.

There's obviously a bit more nuance to it than that, such a 40k tank trying to hold aggro against a 60k DPS (probably going to be hard,) but at comparable gear levels, and especially in the end-game, mechanics and doing a fight correctly should be taking precedence over what are arguably "the basics".

So, I can agree that it would nice if there was an explanation as to how it all gets calculated (for everything, not just threat!!) but I view it as something that shouldn't need explained, because in most situations it should just work.
That may be how taunts work in other games, but here those top of threat list taunts are meant to be most useful after a DPS burst and not a "Hey new guys, over here". You should be using any ranged encounters to bring new mobs over, or a heal.

Keep in mind that whatever damage the tank does, for threat it's recognized as 4.5x that damage. Or, 4.5x that heal.

No wonder it's so hard to find a tank. That sounds boring as hell.

arazith07 · December 2021

yamioni#9870 said:

arazith07 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:

yamioni#9870 said:

wilbur626 said:
What leads you to believe that tank threat generation is too low ?
Because I keep hearing tanks complain about it, and don't hear anyone tell them they're wrong.
The fact that we keep hearing this is the very reason I think that threat generation should be properly explained in the game.

In my humble opinion the problem is not threat generation itself, it is how players expect it to work.
You give a very good example in your explanation ; "Tanks have abilities that can move themselves to the top of the list (taunts)". Many players expect this to be super awesome tank taunts, while the truth is that this power only places you 10% over the next player on the threat table. If a sub-optimal tank is in a party with DPS with high damage potential, this lead can be caught up with a few powerful attacks.

Examples :

Tank using "to of threat table" power :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses power that puts him on top of threat table, score on threat table = 440.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank loses aggro.

Tank using normal version of the power (no top of threat list feat) :
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, current score on threat table = 400.000.
-Tank uses encounter power dealing 250.000 damage , score on threat table = 1.125.000.
-DPS deals 400.000 dmg, tank holds aggro.

Other things in the game that should be clarified when it comes to threat generation is ; tank self healing and tank healing party members.

The easiest fix for these complaints of lacking aggro would be tooltips including actual information for tanks.
I'm not sure of the exact numbers on taunts, but one would think if they only gave a 10% buffer then the spec feature of "threat generation is increased by 40%" isn't functioning as intended. That 40% should apply to anything that generates threat. It shouldn't set your threat to whatever #1 has +10%, it should be generating threat equal to the difference between the tank and #1, +40%. Granted, the longer the fight goes on and the larger the amount of current threat becomes, the more of a buffer that 10% provides. Which is typically why (good) DPS doesn't go ham and pop all cooldowns at the start of a fight (for non-trivial content, at least.)

Taunts aren't supposed to be used as "Oh HAMSTER" buttons when someone can't keep it in their pants. They're supposed to be for picking up new targets (adds) that you haven't had a chance to build threat on first (to keep them from slapping the healer,) and for swap mechanics in multi-tank setups. If tanks are finding themselves using them on cooldown, then the numbers need fixed. Full stop. Tanks shouldn't have to worry about losing threat as long as they're actively damaging a target; they should be able to refocus their attention on mechanics and making sure everyone else isn't getting slapped.

There's obviously a bit more nuance to it than that, such a 40k tank trying to hold aggro against a 60k DPS (probably going to be hard,) but at comparable gear levels, and especially in the end-game, mechanics and doing a fight correctly should be taking precedence over what are arguably "the basics".

So, I can agree that it would nice if there was an explanation as to how it all gets calculated (for everything, not just threat!!) but I view it as something that shouldn't need explained, because in most situations it should just work.
That may be how taunts work in other games, but here those top of threat list taunts are meant to be most useful after a DPS burst and not a "Hey new guys, over here". You should be using any ranged encounters to bring new mobs over, or a heal.

Keep in mind that whatever damage the tank does, for threat it's recognized as 4.5x that damage. Or, 4.5x that heal.
No wonder it's so hard to find a tank. That sounds boring as hell.

What part is boring? o.0 Or rather what makes it more boring than how you thought it was?

sagakaiyume · December 2021

These hard taunts shouldn't be used except in cases where you're tank swapping or dying; at least, as fighter (60.6k-62k IL depending on spec) or pally (56.2k IL), as I hold aggro over those that are 61k IL, BIS (including band of air) with zero issues in all content, I have no say about barbarians as I can't be bothered to make one. I do have my concerns for next mod when all dps have access to the new Artifact set from the campaign.

Some changes I'd like to see from tanks would be;
1. Our initial aggro radius being double other player's, to help with mob encounters and random spawns. We know they can alter aggro radius for A.I, so changing it for tank roles shouldn't be an issue.

2. Make Charging Bull (100 magnitude threat after 1 second of moving) part of our base kit, so we can stop running the dang ring. Maybe even just add it as something that happens without requiring moving and lower it to 50.

Unfortunately, at the time of TOMM hard taunt builds, even while solo tanking, was all the rage for guides. It caught on for those who didn't test stuff themselves and now its what most newer tanks use.

hotfrostworm · December 2021

All Wendy told me, when I asked her about threat was this, just now is Gory Thay has a companion that used threat on his equipment and it gave the companion +20% per item for total of +60%. Her Drow thief could stand and watch them pummel the companion and seldom pay her any attention. Cryptic removed the threat from companion equipment at some point in the past. I hope that explains what threat does or what it did before.

armadeonx · December 2021

I'm not so bothered about threat generation as I am about the significantly reduced survivability of tanks. The serious nerf to the Defence stat and reduction in base HP is the main reason people have dropped their tanks - including me - I now main my cleric, who was my number 2 toon.

rockster · December 2021

If a tank can't survive and be the last one standing even without heals, then they're not really a tank.

sagakaiyume · December 2021

@armadeonx well yeah, that's a huge problem; however its not (in most cases) that we can't survive, its rather that a dps can still do our job as tank and do 4x more damage, or more. But the topic was about aggro

so didn't bring this up as noworries ignores it anyways after his hand in this mess up.

Changes suggested was based off my experience as fighter tank, which AoE situations can get annoying, especially when there are constant mob spawns that instantly decide to one shot a dps before you have time to do anything. Meaning you need to know exactly when and where everything spawns and move around, giving up CA for your group.

My pally however has no issues with AoE aggro thanks to how broken templar's wrath is in all situations.

callumf · December 2021

rockster#6227 said:
If a tank can't survive and be the last one standing even without heals, then they're not really a tank.

This.

Mod 22 Mase Of Vole - Feed back to devs

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