Removal of Quests

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

Hello All

Having played this game sometime ago and now replaying it, I'm disappointed that the start of the game is completely different and therefore doesn't make a good story line as soon as you get to the Protector's enclave. The Theft of the Crown & Finding Honor quest has now been left out of the story completely which makes the start of your game a little disjointed. Any thoughts?

aurumreclusa · July 2021

I think the start animation is changing for Module 21, this might be why those quests are removed?

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

Ahh ok.. any idea if one can get a different start?

greywynd · July 2021

Buy a character slot or delete one you've already got to start over.

boggo49 · July 2021

"Ahh ok.. any idea if one can get a different start?"
Mod 21 will give you a different start. The whole story line is being "re-invented" and you will be able to reach max level, LVL 20 now, in a few hours and be ready for endgame, according to the devs. Of course, (call me cynical) what they really mean is the quicker you get to lvl 20, the sooner you need to start spending real money to get the millions of AD needed for mounts, companions, enchantments,insignia and upgrades to actually be able to complete end game.
So enjoy what little story line you've got left until Mod 21 drops

rubytrue · July 2021

boggo49 said:
"Ahh ok.. any idea if one can get a different start?"
Mod 21 will give you a different start. The whole story line is being "re-invented" and you will be able to reach max level, LVL 20 now, in a few hours and be ready for endgame, according to the devs. Of course, (call me cynical) what they really mean is the quicker you get to lvl 20, the sooner you need to start spending real money to get the millions of AD needed for mounts, companions, enchantments,insignia and upgrades to actually be able to complete end game.
So enjoy what little story line you've got left until Mod 21 drops

You obviously haven't been on preview otherwise you would realize that there will now be a cohesive storyline that you will follow--you level up by completing adventures, i.e. different parts of the storyline. You don't follow the story, you don't level up. Right now, there isn't a real storyline on live because it is so easy to outlevel zones that many (read most, if not all) players skip zones (and the connecting storylines) to get to level 80 as quick as possible.

Once you complete the original storyline, you will be level 20 and from there, pick which adventures/campaigns you want to focus on. And no, just because you are level 20 does not mean you will automatically be end game by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, many zones will be off-limits to a character until you reach the requisite item level.

Mod 21 is such a huge improvement over where the game currently stands.

One thing that no one seems to be talking about is how much more detail there is in the game in Mod 21...it is absolutely gorgeous. Enyo has a nice video that kind of shows the attention to detail (visually, at least) there is in Mod 21 vs earlier Mods by focusing on one map from the preview trailer.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AyFcdYavFV0

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

@greywynd i have created another character but the start is still the same.. oh well. i'll potter along then.

blargskull · July 2021

@rubytrue I think you are confusing leveling with plot. There is little to no plot left. I came in on mod 5 ToD, there was/is a HD cutscene with Valindra attacking Neverwinter. I then join William Fred or red shirt #5 on the beach... blah blah blah, roll credits. I was told by Sgt. Knox the Nashers were using the attack to go after the crown of Neverwinter because those guys thought Karzov was rightfully King. I witnessed Honor Reigh steal the crown from the vault and then tracked her to Blacklake. After killing Karzov I returned the crown, this all happened before going to the Tower District. The game lost both zones, tons of quests, and all just getting to level 10. Level 80 divided 4 = 20 so this would be level at 2.5 on the new level scale.

At level 2 they have me trotting off to Neverdeath Graveyard (for no good reason or plot) this is level 30 to 35. Let's look at what the new players joining us in module 20 missed:

At level 4 Vital Supplies, Rags to Riches, The Theft of the Crown, Finding Honor.
At level 6 The Trail of the Crown.
At level 10 Nest Egg, Finder's Fee, False Idols, Trouble in the Tower District... there goes more quest and information. Have fun falling down the Fallen Tower while you still can!

Are Troubled Times, The Wizard's Folly, Spellburst, and The Plague Tower still part of the new game? I don't know, didn't play far into preview, I guess I will find out on release.

What about NPC groups the player will not encounter but is simply "expected" to know? When they encounter Yargo Company in the Dread Ring and they are just suppose to know. We experienced the Pirate's Skyhold, but they will never know. It is bad enough they are removing all the startup dragons but all these trivial quests have meaning to the plot. How can you follow a broken timeline?

This is going to be interesting how the players who joined us in the last few months will take to all the changes. Me? I am going to pop the popcorn, pull up a chair in PE, and watch the horror show on day one.

Maybe people will love it, hate it, or just meh, it was fun while it lasted...

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

@blargskull I agree with u.. ATM vital supplies/ Rags to Riches / Theft of the crown and Fining Honor have been left out which makes the story a little disjointed. Miss those..

greywynd · July 2021

Instead of focusing on removing content and shoving people to endgame as fast as they can, perhaps they should have looked at slowing down leveling progression so that people weren't skipping zones and missing story points.

rockster · July 2021

I've read comments from people in the past that they would create new characters purely to go back and enjoy the storyline all over again, there are many people I think who do this on the reg for this reason. But at least people had the choice to do that before while still allowing others to skip content if that's what they wanted to do. Can't do it if the option is deleted and everyone is shoved into a cookie-cutter mold and forced to play in one away only. Game should be about choices of how you want to play it and having options and the ability to customize your experience and playstyle. Which it started-out as having in the beginning imo. Game is going in the other direction.

emix · July 2021

The problem is, most older content is based on 4th Edition and we have 5th Edition now.
4th Edition is from 1479 DR - 1486 DR, 5th Edition is from 1489 DR - ? and the upcoming Baldur's Gate III will be 1492 DR or 'now' and is after Season 9 Avernus Rising (Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus)
The old part/intro of the game actually begins in 1479 DR during the attack of Valindra, and everything up to Mod 3 is 4th Ed.
If you compare the Modules and the official D&D content/Seasons you may recognize patterns:

Mod 1	Fury of the Feywild 	2013-08-22	(4th Ed)
Mod 2	Shadowmantle		2013-12-05	(4th Ed)
Mod 3	Curse of Icewind Dale 	2014-05-13	(playtest)	2014-07-09 Legacy of the Crystal Shard (Icewind Dale)
Mod 4	Tyranny of Dragons 	2014-08-14	Season 1	2014-08-19 Hoard of the Dragon Queen (Tyranny of Dragons)
Mod 5	Rise of Tiamat		2014-11-18			2014-11-04 The Rise of Tiamat (Tyranny of Dragons)
Mod 6	Elemental Evil		2015-04-07	Season 2	2015-04-07 Princes of the Apocalypse (Elemental Evil) 
Mod 7	Strongholds		2015-08-11
Mod 8	Underdark		2015-11-17	Season 3	2015-09-15 Out of the Abyss (Rage of Demons)
Mod 9	The Maze Engine 	2016-03-15
Mod 10	Storm King's Thunder 	2016-08-16	Season 5	2016-09-06 Storm King’s Thunder
Mod 11	The Cloaked Ascendancy	2017-02-21
						Season 6	2017-04-04 Tales from the Yawning Portal
Mod 12	Tomb of Annihilation 	2017-07-25	Season 7	2017-09-19 Tomb of Annihilation
Mod 13	Lost City of Omu 	2018-02-27
Mod 14	Ravenloft		2018-06-26	Season 4	2016-03-15 Curse of Strahd
Mod 15	The Heart of Fire 	2018-11-06			2019-06-18 Acquisitions Incorporated
Mod 16	Undermountain		2019-04-23	Season 8	2018-09-18 Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
								2018-11-20 Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage
Mod 17	Uprising		2019-08-13
Mod 18	Infernal Descent 	2020-01-21	Season 9	2019-09-17 Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus
Mod 19	Avernus			2020-06-30
Mod 20	Sharandar		2021-01-07

(you can check out https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Neverwinter_(game) to see where it all fits in)

Some of the old zones/stories are based on 4th Ed Adventures/Sourcebooks such as Lost Crown of Neverwinter or Storm over Neverwinter (Helm's Hold/Chartilifax/Rohini). With Mod 4 we follow the 5th Edition stories more or less. So it is justified to move the game along. Yes, we loose some (or alot) old content and we gain a bit back (2 'lost' dungeons) but we move along.
This will NOT be the Neverwinter folks played in 2013/14, but will it be bad? Decide for yourself, but form your opinion based on experience.

PS: I am not payed/employed by any parties involved in the game, just a fan of FR

kohanas · July 2021

blargskull said:

At level 2 they have me trotting off to Neverdeath Graveyard (for no good reason or plot) this is level 30 to 35. Let's look at what the new players joining us in module 20 missed:
At level 4 Vital Supplies, Rags to Riches, The Theft of the Crown, Finding Honor.
At level 6 The Trail of the Crown.
At level 10 Nest Egg, Finder's Fee, False Idols, Trouble in the Tower District

You do realize that the areas that were removed are not gone. They have been shelved, so that the story for those areas can be reworked, updating the quests, so that you can go back and do them as end game "epic" adventures.
But for the time being, Blacklake District, Tower District, Blackdagger Ruins, Helm's Hold, Pirate's Skyhold, Rothe Valley, and Mount Hotenow and all quests for those areas are gone.

pitshade · July 2021

emix#2069 said:
The problem is, most older content is based on 4th Edition and we have 5th Edition now.

The Chasm is the most 4th edition based map of them all and it remains in the game. In tabletop it was magically sealed over and completely gone. This change has nothing to do with 4th edition to 5th edition.

emix · July 2021

pitshade said:

emix#2069 said:
The problem is, most older content is based on 4th Edition and we have 5th Edition now.
The Chasm is the most 4th edition based map of them all and it remains in the game. In tabletop it was magically sealed over and completely gone. This change has nothing to do with 4th edition to 5th edition.

You noticed I said 'most older' not all older and I did not state all 4th Edition content is gone. Nor that Mod 21 is a move to 5th Edition. One can argue that making it more align with 5th Edition is one aim of Mod 21 (I never played 4th Ed, but I doubt there were much levels past 20 in it, that was 3rd), but only the devs (perhaps) know the answer. For now, lets hope the transition will be fun, least for me that is the aim, I play for fun, not for nuking the game with insanely progging rings...
And yes, the 'shelved' part of the 'removed' zones did not get lost to me. Lets hope the comeback will be fun as well.

Edit: oh and I forgot: yes the Chasm and all that spellplague nonsense from 4th would have made a better target for removal

hotfrostworm · July 2021

kohanas said:

blargskull said:

At level 2 they have me trotting off to Neverdeath Graveyard (for no good reason or plot) this is level 30 to 35. Let's look at what the new players joining us in module 20 missed:
At level 4 Vital Supplies, Rags to Riches, The Theft of the Crown, Finding Honor.
At level 6 The Trail of the Crown.
At level 10 Nest Egg, Finder's Fee, False Idols, Trouble in the Tower District
You do realize that the areas that were removed are not gone. They have been shelved, so that the story for those areas can be reworked, updating the quests, so that you can go back and do them as end game "epic" adventures.
But for the time being, Blacklake District, Tower District, Blackdagger Ruins, Helm's Hold, Pirate's Skyhold, Rothe Valley, and Mount Hotenow and all quests for those areas are gone.

Archived sure, we will get right on that ... LoL, if you believe that, I have some swamp land to sell you.

My wife was really upset they removed the Foundry. She told Thomas Foss personally, how upset she was about this action 2 years ago. He more or less confirmed the entire database was removed and not just archived. If they cared so much about this feature, why wasn't it backed up? The entire database maybe contained 2,000 scripts coded in a text only format. The biggest one must have been about 400 to 500 KB. That comes to 1 standard DVD of files including the others on Star Trek.

They tell they the users, we will archived this or we plan to rework that, this is told to stroke the ruffled feathers. Even if this current Neverwinter team plans to do something with old data in the future, they will be working in another department or even at another company by that time. Next team tosses it in the recycle bin... DONE!

jules · July 2021

hotfrostworm said:

kohanas said:

blargskull said:

At level 2 they have me trotting off to Neverdeath Graveyard (for no good reason or plot) this is level 30 to 35. Let's look at what the new players joining us in module 20 missed:
At level 4 Vital Supplies, Rags to Riches, The Theft of the Crown, Finding Honor.
At level 6 The Trail of the Crown.
At level 10 Nest Egg, Finder's Fee, False Idols, Trouble in the Tower District
You do realize that the areas that were removed are not gone. They have been shelved, so that the story for those areas can be reworked, updating the quests, so that you can go back and do them as end game "epic" adventures.
But for the time being, Blacklake District, Tower District, Blackdagger Ruins, Helm's Hold, Pirate's Skyhold, Rothe Valley, and Mount Hotenow and all quests for those areas are gone.
Archived sure, we will get right on that ... LoL, if you believe that, I have some swamp land to sell you.

My wife was really upset they removed the Foundry. She told Thomas Foss personally, how upset she was about this action 2 years ago. He more or less confirmed the entire database was removed and not just archived. If they cared so much about this feature, why wasn't it backed up? The entire database maybe contained 2,000 scripts coded in a text only format. The biggest one must have been about 400 to 500 KB. That comes to 1 standard DVD of files including the others on Star Trek.

They tell they the users, we will archived this or we plan to rework that, this is told to stroke the ruffled feathers. Even if this current Neverwinter team plans to do something with old data in the future, they will be working in another department or even at another company by that time. Next team tosses it in the recycle bin... DONE!

After M16 in preview subforum, they pretty much said the same when people asked about rolling back to M15... no backup... everything deleted...
I don't want to start another discussion about M16, but I remembered when you said that

I wonder what kind of practise this is...

pitshade said:

emix#2069 said:
The problem is, most older content is based on 4th Edition and we have 5th Edition now.
The Chasm is the most 4th edition based map of them all and it remains in the game. In tabletop it was magically sealed over and completely gone. This change has nothing to do with 4th edition to 5th edition.

They DID state somewhere (I would have to dig...) on the preview forum that the zones that got the boot were chosen because they are low(est) traffic zones compared to others. (Which screams Reducing-for-cheaper-maintenance) I could totally see Hotenow - but not Pirates Skyhold (which was stated that they thought it does not fit the theme, or something like that)
Not sure why they had to kill the first few quests tho... But whatever...

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

@blargskull I got the nest egg quest now an i'm already lvl 17.. Trouble in the tower district was ok..

pitshade · July 2021

IIRC they said the vaulted zones had less player time but that doesn't make much sense with adventure zones. Are players supposed to just camp out after they've finished the quests. The only repeatable content in any of those older zones comes from Maze Engine and Tyranny, both if which are getting reworked and won't contribute to that anymore. Rothe is only only Tyranny associated zone getting vaulted. It's really hard to make sense of what they mean or how they measured it.

hotfrostworm · July 2021

pitshade said:
IIRC they said the vaulted zones had less player time but that doesn't make much sense with adventure zones. Are players supposed to just camp out after they've finished the quests. The only repeatable content in any of those older zones comes from Maze Engine and Tyranny, both if which are getting reworked and won't contribute to that anymore. Rothe is only only Tyranny associated zone getting vaulted. It's really hard to make sense of what they mean or how they measured it.

Vellosk (I think I spelled it correctly) is never active in any census my wife recorded, she did these on the weekends when the game was running hot. However this is not Wizards of the Coast content, this is original content from Cryptic Studios not being "vaulted" in the recycle bin. I will speculate there might be problems with the Hasbro/WoC intellectual property rights? This could be caused by friction, which has been stated on video by the developers.

I am not sure if they are threatening to pull their IP or Cryptic is getting the game ready in the event they do pull the IP. In my opinion, losing the IP at any point would just kill Neverwinter, it could not even be called Neverwinter anymore. The game would need a complete revamp removing far too much. Magic was Hasbro/WoC IP, maybe it was the tip of the proverbial iceberg? I don't know.

emix · July 2021

hotfrostworm said:
However this is not Wizards of the Coast content, this is original content from Cryptic Studios not being "vaulted" in the recycle bin.

What do you mean, original content from Cryptic? To my knowledge all storylines are more or less original content from Cryptic and only based on WotC material (hence my comparison list above).
And yes, loosing the IP would very much terminate the game, unless there is some contigency clause in the contract.

blargskull · July 2021

Vellosk was a Cryptic Studio creation. It was derived from the video game itself. He was telling me, they might be prepping the possible loss of the IP rights. Should that occur, they could keep generic creatures; werewolves, witches, and whatnot. Rebrand the game and hope players will understand. I can't see it happening, there is way too much named items, places, and creatures. Also tieflings and dragonborn are a D&D brand, so what can you do there? Things like elves, dwarves, are generic mythical and public domain. They could only salvage the game, if they have a backup plan in place.

I play some other fantasy base games online, they have their own unique stories. He and I were talking about how WoC owned by Hasbro, may have canned the Magic game. Reasons could be evident enough, most people say they never planned to play it.

cr44zycarrot · July 2021

Oh no.. is re branding and renaming a game the same or similar??? I played Magic the Gathering card game back in the day an enjoyed it thoroughly. I think that WoC or who ever had magic the gathering couldn't make a good enough replica of it for the PC or Console. I wonder if it still been played tho.. Are there still ppl that play D & D on paper an with the Books i wonder..

greywynd · July 2021

cr44zycarrot said:
I think that WoC or who ever had magic the gathering couldn't make a good enough replica of it for the PC or Console.

Look for the Arena online.

hotfrostworm · July 2021

greywynd said:

cr44zycarrot said:
I think that WoC or who ever had magic the gathering couldn't make a good enough replica of it for the PC or Console.
Look for the Arena online.

Yes, Wizards has always owned MtG. I have an old version of Magic the Gathering for PC. I mean this dates back to 1998 made by MicroProse. While dated on graphics, it is still the best version they have ever made. I never got into playing the card game itself. It was and still is my opinion, MtG is trying to turn tabletop D&D into Poke'mon. It is very dull and uncreative, people seem to have missed what Gary Gygax and others were doing back then.

Gygax wasn't about you playing in his world of Greyhawk or Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, he wanted people to make their own worlds. He wanted people to use their imagination to advance the universe of D&D. Wizard of the Coast has been "play it our way or hit the highway" since they took over D&D. The game was stolen from Gary Gygax, not by Wizard's of the Coast, but his partners the Blumes. The Blumes sold their stock to Lorraine Williams. Lorraine Williams then sold TSR to Wizards of the Coast.

People shouldn't need to be told by a single card how to think for themselves.

greywynd · July 2021

Magic and WotC were formed around 93. Garfield created a good solid game that was also used as a teaching tool.

They've been dumbing the game down and removing core mechanics since.

rockster · July 2021

First example I saw in NW was Rhix. 'People are forgetting to go and see him for their dailies and we feel this is unfair on those people who have bad memories and can't play the game properly so we're removing this function.'

hotfrostworm · July 2021

@greywynd Sorry didn't mean to be harsh on the card game. I know there are tons of people who enjoy it. It is just I have been to conventions, where they are slamming cards so fast, it isn't even fun for me to watch it being played. If you go to gaming cons that have "today's players" of D&D at tables they are not as entertaining as they have been in the past. Most just quote jargon from the books or purchased modules and the rest is all game mechanics. Of course the sessions are so short on time at the conventions, it don't allow for much storytelling.

@rockster#6227 There are things to be done! My wife said, she noticed on preview they finally removed the old salvager from the garden roof. She used to joke about him needing employment. I guess he found it or Lord Neverember has him in his private dungeon in the Blackstaff Tower as a replacement for Granek Ruskelver

greywynd · July 2021

Con games with handout characters don't allow players much time to settle into their character, either.

Tournaments at cons tend to be best of three, so the faster you get through the faster they can wrap things up for the round and move on to the next.

gufar · July 2021

greywynd said:
Instead of focusing on removing content and shoving people to endgame as fast as they can, perhaps they should have looked at slowing down leveling progression so that people weren't skipping zones and missing story points.

Exactly! Well said!

Removal of Quests

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