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Paladins Justicar and Oathkeeper is too much nerfed

darkerickxdarkerickx Member Posts: 20 Arc User
edited January 2021 in Player Feedback (PC)
I was very fond of playing as a paladin. But since module 19 you have been destroying my paladin little by little. I'm a tank and healer and I only play as tank and healer. You destroyed my 2 paths. I dont play as dps and i never wil. Give back my paladin's powers and I value the developer's work again by making purchases in the zen market. I think it's fair that we make this deal, as i have no option to continue playing.

Comments

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User

    Rogues also took a beating with the changes. They were never at the top of the pain giver with similarly equipped DPS's,

    Paingiver measures the amount of HP removed from target, and therefore is a race to see who touches the enemies first.
    It isn't a measure of DPS.

    but they were always at the top of the damage absorbed, they had a fun ability to deflect damage that made up for the lack of DPS.

    The damage absorbed chart measures amount of damage blocked by block (if playing Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian tank), dodges, or damage absorbed by a barkshield.

    Deflecting attacks never resulted in any damage versus enemies unless you picked up pets that did procc'd damage when you Deflected attacks (which are universal to all classes).

    Deflect, by itself, was purely a defensive stat that was a random chance to reduce incoming damage by (Deflect Severity Amount), an defensive version of a Critical Hit.

    The old version of Focused Retaliation was universal to all classes, not just Rogue.

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User

    I have no doubt you are correct on the game mechanics.

    What matters is the class does not play as it should anymore, the old system made rouges feel as they should.
    https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-is-dnd/classes/rogue
    "When it comes to combat, rogues prioritize skill over brute strength. A rogue would rather make one precise strike, placing it exactly where the attack will hurt the target most, than wear an opponent down with many smaller strikes. They have an almost supernatural knack for avoiding danger, and a few rogues learn magical tricks to supplement their other abilities."

    I'd agree that many, if not all of the classes lack much of the flavor and flair that makes them unique from one another.

    But, sadly, this game's direction has moved towards being an online action game with D&D names/settings, rather than being a D&D ruleset adapted to video game form.

  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    armadeonx said:

    Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

    If i remember well, as i don't play much on my paly ^^, it's not when you are soloing content : it's when no partymember is nearby (is there a radius mentionned ? can't remember), so yep if no partymember none can be nearby.

    The only solo stuff i can remember this MMO has is the craft/workshop-content (there was the hellpit but it's currently gone, replaced by the nightmare). I may have forgotten some, but the pure solo content doesn't really exist in Neverwinter.
    In practice, almost everything is party-content that you choose to do alone (because it's easy enough to be done alone).

    If the new class is the bard, i will certainly go back to leveling phase, and will work my poems and stories to make adventurers join me in my quests.

    By the way, i'm an advocate of : past half the leveling phase, what is considerered today "solo content" (campaigns) should have at least a bunch of steps with hardcore difficulty in solo for any class, and a bit more normal difficulty when duo (then easier the more you are above 2), because it's a MMO : you should need other(s) for plenty of the activities proposed in the game, not only for some few (= dungeons, trials and some HE and hunts).
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,932 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

    If i remember well, as i don't play much on my paly ^^, it's not when you are soloing content : it's when no partymember is nearby (is there a radius mentionned ? can't remember), so yep if no partymember none can be nearby.

    The only solo stuff i can remember this MMO has is the craft/workshop-content (there was the hellpit but it's currently gone, replaced by the nightmare). I may have forgotten some, but the pure solo content doesn't really exist in Neverwinter.
    In practice, almost everything is party-content that you choose to do alone (because it's easy enough to be done alone).

    If the new class is the bard, i will certainly go back to leveling phase, and will work my poems and stories to make adventurers join me in my quests.

    By the way, i'm an advocate of : past half the leveling phase, what is considerered today "solo content" (campaigns) should have at least a bunch of steps with hardcore difficulty in solo for any class, and a bit more normal difficulty when duo (then easier the more you are above 2), because it's a MMO : you should need other(s) for plenty of the activities proposed in the game, not only for some few (= dungeons, trials and some HE and hunts).
    Yes, Blessed Wanderer states "any party member near" which pretty much means 'solo' as you have no party member near when you're not in a party - and in any meaningful part of a dungeon you will have party members near. The point you're making is purely semantic and adds nothing to the purpose of the thread.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    armadeonx said:



    All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

    My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
    I don't understand this crying.
    What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
    You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
    That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
    Is that going to be okay?



    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,060 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    I play 6 classes and include paladin. I insist to play solo content solo. None of them has problem doing solo content. When I do have problem doing solo content, I consider it is on me and I just have to figure out how to get pass it. So far so good since mod 3.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User

    Normal content: Completible with yourself and a companion


    Dungeons: 5 man content


    Trials: 10 man content


    The normal every day questing and zone wandering is ment to be done by yourself. Tool tips displayed in the game even state this. If you are required to have a group to run normal content then it is is direct violation of that design. And quite frankly a pally needs help at this point due to lack of dps and healing and well everything. Even companions are getting needed more and more because DPS PLAYERS don't like it when a comp does a decent amount.


    Oh no the comp hit for 50k.... but I just hit for 500k... must nerf comp as its too much damage

    Run around with this companion solo and let him deal even 200k dmg.
    On one condition: don't bring him on trial or dung.
    And that some HAMSTER dps who hits less than this companion, won't came here with him.
    But. . . becouse that's not possible, you have to deal with it as it is.
    And it's better for you to master your character instead of crying on the forums about how lame you are.
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,932 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    mushellka said:

    armadeonx said:



    All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

    My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
    I don't understand this crying.
    What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
    You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
    That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
    Is that going to be okay?

    My Pally can get through all content and if you look at my signature on posts you'll see that I play ALL classes so I am fully aware of all of the differences in strengths & weaknesses.

    One thing you may not be aware of is how they've altered how Defence works. Compared to how it used to work, it is now more effective at lower levels and much less so at higher levels. Pallys have a shield, yes - but they have no dodge mechanic and unlike some DPS classes, they do not have Awareness as their defensive Forte, making CA a real issue.

    Compared to before, Pallys take a lot more incoming damage.

    Pallys not only deal 15% less base DPS, the magnitudes on most of their powers are low and their class features/feats are not damage oriented. This is a net difference of far greater than 15% damage output. Compared to my Cleric, Ranger and Rogue, my Pally takes at least twice as long to kill anything. This is a lot greater than it used to be and the 'survivability offset' is nowhere what it used to be.

    My Cleric was in Avernus last night and solo'd Mog and his minions. It was pretty easy, health wasn't a problem, everything went down fast - got the reward and moved on within 2 minutes. My pally would take more like 10 minutes to solo Mog. That is a problem.

    Nice of you to put in an opinion based on your 'friend's experience' by the way - someone you know running the class must give you a real insight. You want to know what it's like? Trying creating one - I'm very sure that your opinion will change.

    I never comment on classes I don't run as my opinion would be based on assumptions. Btw, have you noticed a decrease in the number of players running tanks? I have - and that should be a concern for anyone of any class that likes to run dungeons.

    Post edited by armadeonx on
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,128 Arc User
    Using a dps companion and bane with the feat that makes it cost 0 divinity helps.

    But yes, bigger magnitude in some powers could help.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    > @mushellka said:
    > Run around with this companion solo and let him deal even 200k dmg.
    > On one condition: don't bring him on trial or dung.
    > And that some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps who hits less than this companion, won't came here with him.
    > But. . . becouse that's not possible, you have to deal with it as it is.
    > And it's better for you to master your character instead of crying on the forums about how lame you are.

    1: I would love comps to do 200k damage. Would make life a lot more enjoyable in content instead of me sitting there hitting for a 1k crit on an at-will in avernus and taking forever to do basic content.

    2: To be frank... if you are getting out dps'ed by someone's companion you're definitely not playing as well as your class should. Well before xuna and chicken were hit with the nerf hammer of doom I was still being out dps'ed by my friends... all the time.

    They never ran those comps either. Just me. And I was always smoked by them. Be it on rangers, rouges, clerics, warlocks, wizards or barbies.. (none of us play fighters really). They know their class and maximize its damage. Any dps class will out perform a comp if you actually pay any sort of attention to what you are doing. Yes even fighters can. Seen it happen on a regular basis.

    Its really not that difficult of a thing to do but for many their ego gets in the way. Just like those who go into trials and think they know everything but die constantly to mechanics. And most of those have their LH or even capes.

    3: I still laugh at those who complain about comps doing too much damage when they are showing content being run with 6 rank 15 indomitables, the bell and stacks of warlords inspiration... yet they say the comp hits too hard....

    I mean really? You're boosting its damage by 200% and thats why you say it hits too hard?

    3: who exactly is the one coming here whining about mastering their class when they don't even play the class under discussion in the topic?

    Oh thats right....

    I main a pally, and always will. Even with how badly they have been neutered. If that means I don't do trials anymore than so be it.

    Now can I get through content? Absolutely. However that doesn't mean it is in a timely fashion. Being a working adult I can't afford to sit on Neverwinter for 10 hours a day or longer to run the content I need to get through. Legacy campaigns, general questing, dungeon crawling... everything has had its time dramatically increased for its completions. Thus I play less content than I used to in the same time frame.

    THAT is what the problem is. No other class that I have played has experienced this issue to the degree the paladin has. None of my friends have either.

    Now then... I would be remiss if I were to be asking for the paladin to be buffed up to dps class levels of damage. That just isn't right. They shouldn't be putting up the same numbers. However that doesn't mean we don't need a buff.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,932 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    armadeonx said:

    mushellka said:

    armadeonx said:



    All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

    My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
    I don't understand this crying.
    What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
    You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
    That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
    Is that going to be okay?

    My Pally can get through all content and if you look at my signature on posts you'll see that I play ALL classes so I am fully aware of all of the differences in strengths & weaknesses.

    One thing you may not be aware of is how they've altered how Defence works. Compared to how it used to work, it is now more effective at lower levels and much less so at higher levels. Pallys have a shield, yes - but they have no dodge mechanic and unlike some DPS classes, they do not have Awareness as their defensive Forte, making CA a real issue.

    Compared to before, Pallys take a lot more incoming damage.

    Pallys not only deal 15% less base DPS, the magnitudes on most of their powers are low and their class features/feats are not damage oriented. This is a net difference of far greater than 15% damage output. Compared to my Cleric, Ranger and Rogue, my Pally takes at least twice as long to kill anything. This is a lot greater than it used to be and the 'survivability offset' is nowhere what it used to be.

    My Cleric was in Avernus last night and solo'd Mog and his minions. It was pretty easy, health wasn't a problem, everything went down fast - got the reward and moved on within 2 minutes. My pally would take more like 10 minutes to solo Mog. That is a problem.

    Nice of you to put in an opinion based on your 'friend's experience' by the way - someone you know running the class must give you a real insight. You want to know what it's like? Trying creating one - I'm very sure that your opinion will change.

    I never comment on classes I don't run as my opinion would be based on assumptions. Btw, have you noticed a decrease in the number of players running tanks? I have - and that should be a concern for anyone of any class that likes to run dungeons.

    My friend and I have been playing together every day for 3 years. We usually discuss and do everything together. E. g. BHE on sharandar we doing just together, two people. Me on dps he as tank, because it's the most comfortable for us.
    I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. I also have a paladin both tanking and healing paths. I don't play it actively because I don't like melee classes. That doesn't mean I don't know anything about him.
    Awarness, while having limited sources, is achievable at a satisfactory level. If you finally manage to get around 65-70% you will see how much your gaming experience will improve.

    The paladin was never designed to deal damage. He is a typical support character, currently with a tank and healer path. The fact that a few years ago it was buggy and dealt a lot of damage was not the intention of the developers.

    He's doing great today, if you know how to play him.
    When I see posts on this forum regarding paladin-tanks, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
    These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic.
    Tank is for tanking, for holding aggro and not for being first on the pangiver list.
    You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
    Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity.

    Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything.

    You must be aware that every single other support class has a DPS path? You must be aware that no DC, Fighter, Warlock or Barbarian would ever run their support build through solo content. Why? BECAUSE IT TAKES TOO LONG.

    Why would a Paladin have a DPS build? Because 90% of time is spent in solo content! Should they run that build in group content? No - they need a full tank build. I have 3 loadouts on my Pally; tank / heal / solo. Do I have a chicken companion? Yup: for soloing. I also have a Harper Bard for group content.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User

    mushellka said:

    ....



    "I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. "
    So you are missing two or thgree tanks.


    "The paladin was never designed to deal damage."
    And the DPS classes were never designed to be so tanky but cause of complaints you were before th changes.
    Even after changes cause how damage mitigation works the difference between a DPS tankiness and a tank is not so great:
    HP is only 20-30% difference.
    Defense does not make much difference cause of the formula: Damage received/(1xdefe percentage)
    So the tanks you see have a real mitigation performace 53% max.


    "These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic. "

    Threat is a magnitude of damage done since mod16. If a tank dont do enough damage cannot hold aggro end of story.Yoy should know that.
    High damage tank=better aggro smoother run.


    "You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
    Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity. "

    Well. I would be happy if less entitled DPS that speak for tank classes whoile having limited or nil knowledge, would be around.

    "Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything."

    kudos to him.
    By your same "logic" DPS would not wear barkshield ,I mean according to you if a tank cannot have a mirage weapon a dps should not a barkshield...right?

    ---------------

    devs ,tank classes are going extinct in NW, they are minimal damage while their survivability is severely nerfed ( cause of DPS complaints ).
    Boreworm zaps hit like before changes while now tanks have far less mitigation,stamina and cause of scaling HP.
    Stop listening to DPS complaints and buff tank classes pls.
    Thanks ! :)


    But he can have a mirage weapon. He can have a lostmauth set and 40% awarness and 5 tenebrouses like you. Just don't complain that everything kills you in dungeons and paladin is broken :)

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User


    Hey, who can get 65-70% awareness as a non endgame player?

    No one

    Not with out a CCard.


    Look at this:

    staty

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,128 Arc User
    edited February 2021


    everything was fine before the combat rework, now it's f'd up, QOL is not up to us, it's what Cryptic decides and they decided that people need to spend more money

    Sorry but NO.
    People can repeat this mantra 1 million times and wont get true. Before the combat rework everything wasn't fine. Not even close.
    • We had 99% of the content trivialized rolfstomping everything except zariel and ToMM (and depending on players even ToMM was a joke).
    • The new player experience was horrible in leveling dungeons with players that go ahead and kills everything and blaming new players because they were slow
    • All the builds were the same, and the gear was only good if it gave power.
    • Horrible rewards in all the content
    • They couldnt give better rewards because of 5 min dungeons
    The new system is also far from perfect, it has obvious flaws that are being commented in this forum and they need to change things obviously. I understand that there are people that never like changes, but stop telling that the old system was fine. A big NO.

    Edit (thanks @armadeonx ) I missunderstood that you were only talking about paladins, but as a paladin myself, I dont think everything was fine. Dungeons didnt need tanks in most of the cases. I agree that solo play in paladins is a pain now and need to be addressed like other things, but the change was for better in group play.
    Post edited by darthpotater on
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    just to add to the post above - healing is same situation - all hamster :D
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