Paladins Justicar and Oathkeeper is too much nerfed

darkerickx · January 2021

I was very fond of playing as a paladin. But since module 19 you have been destroying my paladin little by little. I'm a tank and healer and I only play as tank and healer. You destroyed my 2 paths. I dont play as dps and i never wil. Give back my paladin's powers and I value the developer's work again by making purchases in the zen market. I think it's fair that we make this deal, as i have no option to continue playing.

Unknown · January 2021

This content has been removed.

rjc9000 · January 2021

ewjax#5077 said:
Rogues also took a beating with the changes. They were never at the top of the pain giver with similarly equipped DPS's,

Paingiver measures the amount of HP removed from target, and therefore is a race to see who touches the enemies first.
It isn't a measure of DPS.

ewjax#5077 said:
but they were always at the top of the damage absorbed, they had a fun ability to deflect damage that made up for the lack of DPS.

The damage absorbed chart measures amount of damage blocked by block (if playing Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian tank), dodges, or damage absorbed by a barkshield.

Deflecting attacks never resulted in any damage versus enemies unless you picked up pets that did procc'd damage when you Deflected attacks (which are universal to all classes).

Deflect, by itself, was purely a defensive stat that was a random chance to reduce incoming damage by (Deflect Severity Amount), an defensive version of a Critical Hit.

The old version of Focused Retaliation was universal to all classes, not just Rogue.

Unknown · January 2021

This content has been removed.

rjc9000 · January 2021

ewjax#5077 said:
I have no doubt you are correct on the game mechanics.

What matters is the class does not play as it should anymore, the old system made rouges feel as they should.
https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-is-dnd/classes/rogue
"When it comes to combat, rogues prioritize skill over brute strength. A rogue would rather make one precise strike, placing it exactly where the attack will hurt the target most, than wear an opponent down with many smaller strikes. They have an almost supernatural knack for avoiding danger, and a few rogues learn magical tricks to supplement their other abilities."

I'd agree that many, if not all of the classes lack much of the flavor and flair that makes them unique from one another.

But, sadly, this game's direction has moved towards being an online action game with D&D names/settings, rather than being a D&D ruleset adapted to video game form.

armadeonx · January 2021

Would you mind NOT hijacking the post to make it about Rogues - start your own thread. The OP was about the, erm, OP... (sorry).

I have to agree with Dark that the Paladin has been severely neutered and everything good about it has been removed:

* Auras that helped the entire party
* Dailies that properly protected the party or damaged multiple enemies
* A tab mechanic that worked independently of encounter powers (now using Divine Palisade drains Divinity - which is needed for Smite, which is the main threat mechanic. In other words, you can't maintain aggro and use your tab defence mechanic in the same fight - genius move)
etc

The Pally has been redesigned into a second rate Fighter tank, with watered down versions of Fighter skills.

All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

tchefi · January 2021

armadeonx said:
Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

If i remember well, as i don't play much on my paly ^^, it's not when you are soloing content : it's when no partymember is nearby (is there a radius mentionned ? can't remember), so yep if no partymember none can be nearby.

The only solo stuff i can remember this MMO has is the craft/workshop-content (there was the hellpit but it's currently gone, replaced by the nightmare). I may have forgotten some, but the pure solo content doesn't really exist in Neverwinter.
In practice, almost everything is party-content that you choose to do alone (because it's easy enough to be done alone).

If the new class is the bard, i will certainly go back to leveling phase, and will work my poems and stories to make adventurers join me in my quests.

By the way, i'm an advocate of : past half the leveling phase, what is considerered today "solo content" (campaigns) should have at least a bunch of steps with hardcore difficulty in solo for any class, and a bit more normal difficulty when duo (then easier the more you are above 2), because it's a MMO : you should need other(s) for plenty of the activities proposed in the game, not only for some few (= dungeons, trials and some HE and hunts).

armadeonx · January 2021

tchefi#6735 said:

armadeonx said:
Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).
If i remember well, as i don't play much on my paly ^^, it's not when you are soloing content : it's when no partymember is nearby (is there a radius mentionned ? can't remember), so yep if no partymember none can be nearby.

The only solo stuff i can remember this MMO has is the craft/workshop-content (there was the hellpit but it's currently gone, replaced by the nightmare). I may have forgotten some, but the pure solo content doesn't really exist in Neverwinter.
In practice, almost everything is party-content that you choose to do alone (because it's easy enough to be done alone).

If the new class is the bard, i will certainly go back to leveling phase, and will work my poems and stories to make adventurers join me in my quests.

By the way, i'm an advocate of : past half the leveling phase, what is considerered today "solo content" (campaigns) should have at least a bunch of steps with hardcore difficulty in solo for any class, and a bit more normal difficulty when duo (then easier the more you are above 2), because it's a MMO : you should need other(s) for plenty of the activities proposed in the game, not only for some few (= dungeons, trials and some HE and hunts).

Yes, Blessed Wanderer states "any party member near" which pretty much means 'solo' as you have no party member near when you're not in a party - and in any meaningful part of a dungeon you will have party members near. The point you're making is purely semantic and adds nothing to the purpose of the thread.

vaultingfrog · January 2021

Normal content: Completible with yourself and a companion

Dungeons: 5 man content

Trials: 10 man content

The normal every day questing and zone wandering is ment to be done by yourself. Tool tips displayed in the game even state this. If you are required to have a group to run normal content then it is is direct violation of that design. And quite frankly a pally needs help at this point due to lack of dps and healing and well everything. Even companions are getting needed more and more because DPS PLAYERS don't like it when a comp does a decent amount.

Oh no the comp hit for 50k.... but I just hit for 500k... must nerf comp as its too much damage

Unknown · February 2021

This content has been removed.

mushellka · February 2021

armadeonx said:

All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).

My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
I don't understand this crying.
What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
Is that going to be okay?

plasticbat · February 2021

I play 6 classes and include paladin. I insist to play solo content solo. None of them has problem doing solo content. When I do have problem doing solo content, I consider it is on me and I just have to figure out how to get pass it. So far so good since mod 3.

mushellka · February 2021

vaultingfrog#2497 said:
Normal content: Completible with yourself and a companion

Dungeons: 5 man content

Trials: 10 man content

The normal every day questing and zone wandering is ment to be done by yourself. Tool tips displayed in the game even state this. If you are required to have a group to run normal content then it is is direct violation of that design. And quite frankly a pally needs help at this point due to lack of dps and healing and well everything. Even companions are getting needed more and more because DPS PLAYERS don't like it when a comp does a decent amount.

Oh no the comp hit for 50k.... but I just hit for 500k... must nerf comp as its too much damage

Run around with this companion solo and let him deal even 200k dmg.
On one condition: don't bring him on trial or dung.
And that some HAMSTER dps who hits less than this companion, won't came here with him.
But. . . becouse that's not possible, you have to deal with it as it is.
And it's better for you to master your character instead of crying on the forums about how lame you are.

armadeonx · February 2021

mushellka said:

armadeonx said:

All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).
My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
I don't understand this crying.
What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
Is that going to be okay?

My Pally can get through all content and if you look at my signature on posts you'll see that I play ALL classes so I am fully aware of all of the differences in strengths & weaknesses.

One thing you may not be aware of is how they've altered how Defence works. Compared to how it used to work, it is now more effective at lower levels and much less so at higher levels. Pallys have a shield, yes - but they have no dodge mechanic and unlike some DPS classes, they do not have Awareness as their defensive Forte, making CA a real issue.

Compared to before, Pallys take a lot more incoming damage.

Pallys not only deal 15% less base DPS, the magnitudes on most of their powers are low and their class features/feats are not damage oriented. This is a net difference of far greater than 15% damage output. Compared to my Cleric, Ranger and Rogue, my Pally takes at least twice as long to kill anything. This is a lot greater than it used to be and the 'survivability offset' is nowhere what it used to be.

My Cleric was in Avernus last night and solo'd Mog and his minions. It was pretty easy, health wasn't a problem, everything went down fast - got the reward and moved on within 2 minutes. My pally would take more like 10 minutes to solo Mog. That is a problem.

Nice of you to put in an opinion based on your 'friend's experience' by the way - someone you know running the class must give you a real insight. You want to know what it's like? Trying creating one - I'm very sure that your opinion will change.

I never comment on classes I don't run as my opinion would be based on assumptions. Btw, have you noticed a decrease in the number of players running tanks? I have - and that should be a concern for anyone of any class that likes to run dungeons.

darthpotater · February 2021

Using a dps companion and bane with the feat that makes it cost 0 divinity helps.

But yes, bigger magnitude in some powers could help.

vaultingfrog · February 2021

> @mushellka said:
> Run around with this companion solo and let him deal even 200k dmg.
> On one condition: don't bring him on trial or dung.
> And that some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps who hits less than this companion, won't came here with him.
> But. . . becouse that's not possible, you have to deal with it as it is.
> And it's better for you to master your character instead of crying on the forums about how lame you are.

1: I would love comps to do 200k damage. Would make life a lot more enjoyable in content instead of me sitting there hitting for a 1k crit on an at-will in avernus and taking forever to do basic content.

2: To be frank... if you are getting out dps'ed by someone's companion you're definitely not playing as well as your class should. Well before xuna and chicken were hit with the nerf hammer of doom I was still being out dps'ed by my friends... all the time.

They never ran those comps either. Just me. And I was always smoked by them. Be it on rangers, rouges, clerics, warlocks, wizards or barbies.. (none of us play fighters really). They know their class and maximize its damage. Any dps class will out perform a comp if you actually pay any sort of attention to what you are doing. Yes even fighters can. Seen it happen on a regular basis.

Its really not that difficult of a thing to do but for many their ego gets in the way. Just like those who go into trials and think they know everything but die constantly to mechanics. And most of those have their LH or even capes.

3: I still laugh at those who complain about comps doing too much damage when they are showing content being run with 6 rank 15 indomitables, the bell and stacks of warlords inspiration... yet they say the comp hits too hard....

I mean really? You're boosting its damage by 200% and thats why you say it hits too hard?

3: who exactly is the one coming here whining about mastering their class when they don't even play the class under discussion in the topic?

Oh thats right....

I main a pally, and always will. Even with how badly they have been neutered. If that means I don't do trials anymore than so be it.

Now can I get through content? Absolutely. However that doesn't mean it is in a timely fashion. Being a working adult I can't afford to sit on Neverwinter for 10 hours a day or longer to run the content I need to get through. Legacy campaigns, general questing, dungeon crawling... everything has had its time dramatically increased for its completions. Thus I play less content than I used to in the same time frame.

THAT is what the problem is. No other class that I have played has experienced this issue to the degree the paladin has. None of my friends have either.

Now then... I would be remiss if I were to be asking for the paladin to be buffed up to dps class levels of damage. That just isn't right. They shouldn't be putting up the same numbers. However that doesn't mean we don't need a buff.

mushellka · February 2021

armadeonx said:

mushellka said:

armadeonx said:

All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).
My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
I don't understand this crying.
What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
Is that going to be okay?

My Pally can get through all content and if you look at my signature on posts you'll see that I play ALL classes so I am fully aware of all of the differences in strengths & weaknesses.

One thing you may not be aware of is how they've altered how Defence works. Compared to how it used to work, it is now more effective at lower levels and much less so at higher levels. Pallys have a shield, yes - but they have no dodge mechanic and unlike some DPS classes, they do not have Awareness as their defensive Forte, making CA a real issue.

Compared to before, Pallys take a lot more incoming damage.

Pallys not only deal 15% less base DPS, the magnitudes on most of their powers are low and their class features/feats are not damage oriented. This is a net difference of far greater than 15% damage output. Compared to my Cleric, Ranger and Rogue, my Pally takes at least twice as long to kill anything. This is a lot greater than it used to be and the 'survivability offset' is nowhere what it used to be.

My Cleric was in Avernus last night and solo'd Mog and his minions. It was pretty easy, health wasn't a problem, everything went down fast - got the reward and moved on within 2 minutes. My pally would take more like 10 minutes to solo Mog. That is a problem.

Nice of you to put in an opinion based on your 'friend's experience' by the way - someone you know running the class must give you a real insight. You want to know what it's like? Trying creating one - I'm very sure that your opinion will change.

I never comment on classes I don't run as my opinion would be based on assumptions. Btw, have you noticed a decrease in the number of players running tanks? I have - and that should be a concern for anyone of any class that likes to run dungeons.

My friend and I have been playing together every day for 3 years. We usually discuss and do everything together. E. g. BHE on sharandar we doing just together, two people. Me on dps he as tank, because it's the most comfortable for us.
I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. I also have a paladin both tanking and healing paths. I don't play it actively because I don't like melee classes. That doesn't mean I don't know anything about him.
Awarness, while having limited sources, is achievable at a satisfactory level. If you finally manage to get around 65-70% you will see how much your gaming experience will improve.

The paladin was never designed to deal damage. He is a typical support character, currently with a tank and healer path. The fact that a few years ago it was buggy and dealt a lot of damage was not the intention of the developers.

He's doing great today, if you know how to play him.
When I see posts on this forum regarding paladin-tanks, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic.
Tank is for tanking, for holding aggro and not for being first on the pangiver list.
You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity.

Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything.

armadeonx · February 2021

mushellka said:

armadeonx said:

mushellka said:

armadeonx said:

All of this AND it is the ONLY class that doesn't have a DPS option for soloing. Blessed Wanderer (class feature) provides a 5% boost for soloing, which means it does 15% less DPS than all other classes when doing all the solo stuff (90% of the game).
My friend is playing paladin and he can do solo content without problem and help. Sure, it takes longer but it's not big deal.
I don't understand this crying.
What do you think you gonna play, an immortal dps?
You imagine that you will deal the same amount of damage as dps but with shields and tank mechanics?
That's really funny. In that case, I, as dps, will ask for your shield and resistance.
Is that going to be okay?

My Pally can get through all content and if you look at my signature on posts you'll see that I play ALL classes so I am fully aware of all of the differences in strengths & weaknesses.

One thing you may not be aware of is how they've altered how Defence works. Compared to how it used to work, it is now more effective at lower levels and much less so at higher levels. Pallys have a shield, yes - but they have no dodge mechanic and unlike some DPS classes, they do not have Awareness as their defensive Forte, making CA a real issue.

Compared to before, Pallys take a lot more incoming damage.

Pallys not only deal 15% less base DPS, the magnitudes on most of their powers are low and their class features/feats are not damage oriented. This is a net difference of far greater than 15% damage output. Compared to my Cleric, Ranger and Rogue, my Pally takes at least twice as long to kill anything. This is a lot greater than it used to be and the 'survivability offset' is nowhere what it used to be.

My Cleric was in Avernus last night and solo'd Mog and his minions. It was pretty easy, health wasn't a problem, everything went down fast - got the reward and moved on within 2 minutes. My pally would take more like 10 minutes to solo Mog. That is a problem.

Nice of you to put in an opinion based on your 'friend's experience' by the way - someone you know running the class must give you a real insight. You want to know what it's like? Trying creating one - I'm very sure that your opinion will change.

I never comment on classes I don't run as my opinion would be based on assumptions. Btw, have you noticed a decrease in the number of players running tanks? I have - and that should be a concern for anyone of any class that likes to run dungeons.

My friend and I have been playing together every day for 3 years. We usually discuss and do everything together. E. g. BHE on sharandar we doing just together, two people. Me on dps he as tank, because it's the most comfortable for us.
I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. I also have a paladin both tanking and healing paths. I don't play it actively because I don't like melee classes. That doesn't mean I don't know anything about him.
Awarness, while having limited sources, is achievable at a satisfactory level. If you finally manage to get around 65-70% you will see how much your gaming experience will improve.

The paladin was never designed to deal damage. He is a typical support character, currently with a tank and healer path. The fact that a few years ago it was buggy and dealt a lot of damage was not the intention of the developers.

He's doing great today, if you know how to play him.
When I see posts on this forum regarding paladin-tanks, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic.
Tank is for tanking, for holding aggro and not for being first on the pangiver list.
You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity.

Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything.

You must be aware that every single other support class has a DPS path? You must be aware that no DC, Fighter, Warlock or Barbarian would ever run their support build through solo content. Why? BECAUSE IT TAKES TOO LONG.

Why would a Paladin have a DPS build? Because 90% of time is spent in solo content! Should they run that build in group content? No - they need a full tank build. I have 3 loadouts on my Pally; tank / heal / solo. Do I have a chicken companion? Yup: for soloing. I also have a Harper Bard for group content.

hypervoreian · February 2021

mushellka said:
....

"I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. "
So you are missing two or thgree tanks.

"The paladin was never designed to deal damage."
And the DPS classes were never designed to be so tanky but cause of complaints you were before th changes.
Even after changes cause how damage mitigation works the difference between a DPS tankiness and a tank is not so great:
HP is only 20-30% difference.
Defense does not make much difference cause of the formula: Damage received/(1xdefe percentage)
So the tanks you see have a real mitigation performace 53% max.

"These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic. "

Threat is a magnitude of damage done since mod16. If a tank dont do enough damage cannot hold aggro end of story.Yoy should know that.
High damage tank=better aggro smoother run.

"You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity. "

Well. I would be happy if less entitled DPS that speak for tank classes whoile having limited or nil knowledge, would be around.

"Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything."

kudos to him.
By your same "logic" DPS would not wear barkshield ,I mean according to you if a tank cannot have a mirage weapon a dps should not a barkshield...right?

---------------

devs ,tank classes are going extinct in NW, they are minimal damage while their survivability is severely nerfed ( cause of DPS complaints ).
Boreworm zaps hit like before changes while now tanks have far less mitigation,stamina and cause of scaling HP.
Stop listening to DPS complaints and buff tank classes pls.
Thanks !

silente07 · February 2021

“My focus is on quality not quantity “

Nice.

Someone knows nothing about Tanks. But that’s not an uncommon attitude and you wonder why all the RTQ and REQ’s are looking for Tanks.

You want us to do our job, give us the tools.

Hey, who can get 65-70% awareness as a non endgame player?
No one
Not with out a CCard.

OMG you saw a mirage set on a Tank? My heavens!
How vulgar, I guess he didn’t have the gold to change them out. How embarrassing to have the audacity to use a DPS set.
What WAS he thinking.

My Pally is parked in. Guild I can no longer raise, I’m thinking of changing it to the guild of misfit Classes.

Hopefully the state of things improve by mod 25.

mushellka · February 2021

hypervoreian said:

mushellka said:
....

"I have all classes except GF, TR and barbie. "
So you are missing two or thgree tanks.

"The paladin was never designed to deal damage."
And the DPS classes were never designed to be so tanky but cause of complaints you were before th changes.
Even after changes cause how damage mitigation works the difference between a DPS tankiness and a tank is not so great:
HP is only 20-30% difference.
Defense does not make much difference cause of the formula: Damage received/(1xdefe percentage)
So the tanks you see have a real mitigation performace 53% max.

"These "builds" under "dps" with chicken, xuna and god knows what else. Those sets of lostmauth, orcus, etc. It's pathetic. "

Threat is a magnitude of damage done since mod16. If a tank dont do enough damage cannot hold aggro end of story.Yoy should know that.
High damage tank=better aggro smoother run.

"You say there aren't enough tanks? Well, I'll be honest, if we got rid of tanks like OP, I'm personally happy about it.
Forgive me, but my focus is on quality, not quantity. "

Well. I would be happy if less entitled DPS that speak for tank classes whoile having limited or nil knowledge, would be around.

"Incidentally, I saw a tank with a mirage weapon today. Now... I know I've seen everything."

kudos to him.
By your same "logic" DPS would not wear barkshield ,I mean according to you if a tank cannot have a mirage weapon a dps should not a barkshield...right?

---------------

devs ,tank classes are going extinct in NW, they are minimal damage while their survivability is severely nerfed ( cause of DPS complaints ).
Boreworm zaps hit like before changes while now tanks have far less mitigation,stamina and cause of scaling HP.
Stop listening to DPS complaints and buff tank classes pls.
Thanks !

But he can have a mirage weapon. He can have a lostmauth set and 40% awarness and 5 tenebrouses like you. Just don't complain that everything kills you in dungeons and paladin is broken

mushellka · February 2021

silente07#2597 said:

Hey, who can get 65-70% awareness as a non endgame player?

No one

Not with out a CCard.

Look at this:

darthpotater · February 2021

nukaze#1578 said:

everything was fine before the combat rework, now it's f'd up, QOL is not up to us, it's what Cryptic decides and they decided that people need to spend more money

Sorry but NO.
People can repeat this mantra 1 million times and wont get true. Before the combat rework everything wasn't fine. Not even close.

We had 99% of the content trivialized rolfstomping everything except zariel and ToMM (and depending on players even ToMM was a joke).
The new player experience was horrible in leveling dungeons with players that go ahead and kills everything and blaming new players because they were slow
All the builds were the same, and the gear was only good if it gave power.
Horrible rewards in all the content
They couldnt give better rewards because of 5 min dungeons

The new system is also far from perfect, it has obvious flaws that are being commented in this forum and they need to change things obviously. I understand that there are people that never like changes, but stop telling that the old system was fine. A big NO.

Edit (thanks @armadeonx ) I missunderstood that you were only talking about paladins, but as a paladin myself, I dont think everything was fine. Dungeons didnt need tanks in most of the cases. I agree that solo play in paladins is a pain now and need to be addressed like other things, but the change was for better in group play.

xaltius · February 2021

Totally agree with the OP. I play Justicar and we are pretty much useless atm, in comparisson to fighter and barbarian.

We take too much dmg, we have no bonus to awareness (short of a daily, which u either burn on that or u use to initiate and keep aggro and that only based on dmg), our forte is terrible. I mean defense is good. Critical chance is debatable. It used to be great before the combat changes for keeping aggro, now not so much. And deflect severity, is useless unless we focus on getting deflect to over 75%, to make it half reliable. Which is not. We would have to ignore awarness defense and critical avoidance which are even more important, for the most part. And hp.

What is with the hp nerfs across the board. Right now it s either buy the storytellers when they come up, or suck. I used to have 1 million HP before the changes and caps on everything without the books. Now my hp goes from 780k - 850k with buffs, if i want to keep awareness at a 71-76%. Which is almost the maximum we can achieve. I think 80% is probably the max we can achieve as paladins without using the daily. Which is not bad, but with awareness having no diminishing returns (according to youtubers) myself and other pally mains would like to cap it at 90%.

The text for divine champion/palisade and the feat of unyielding champion are weird. I have not tested it but it seems to me that without unyielding, my palisade can block up 75% of my hp incoming dmg and divine champion by itself stays at 50% stamina 50% health. If what I read is correct, picking unyielding as a feat, just makes us even more sucky. It reduces the max hp % that palisade can absorb by 15% and gives it to divine champion. Which may seem like a good trade off, but in reality it is not. The divinity cost reduction is pretty much wasted here as well, since lately it has become a struggle to survive big hits without palisade. So we pretty much use it for a burst dmg reduction (hi halaster. oh u are playing goku again, oh u have another spirit bomb for me). OK this is not too bad. But the text has to be clearer in that it is a nerf for palisade and champion. Before the changes it only boosted champion to 75% to match palisade. The difference between the 2 was that u could either keep attacking while taking only half the dmg in your hp, or block, go into palisade and use that dmg reduction purely on your stamina. It was nice. I just see an overall nerf for justicars again. Do the devs dislike the class or smthng?

Aggro management. Oh boy. The devs did indeed help us out with the recent boost to threat. Well they helped new players who want to start a pally. I can not recommend to anyone, to start a paladin tank atm though. I made a fighter couple days ago and i was going through their encounters and feats and I could not believe my eyes, how braindead easy it is to keep aggro as a vanguard. I mean sure, pallies have lots of hard taunts, if they get past the learning curve (big one) of managing divinity cost, stamina cost, regen (for both) and block timings. Fighters just need knights resolve or whatever that last encounter is called. Yup. Thats it. Just have the highest dps stand on the side of the boss, so that they are closest to u, and every hit they land, counts as your aggro. U have literally nothing to do. Just stand there and look pretty XD. I guess it is harder in endgame content. for the most part. Thats where a paladin shines. At the beginning of zariel and tomm. Where we can just smite at will to keep everyones aggro in check. After that we are there to cheer on the barbarian or fighter who can easily bring awareness to 90% btw, while we wait to absorb a hit, if they need us to. We are basically a glorified cheerleader with divine energy. I like fighters though. I hope they dont nerf them. Yes they are very easy to play as tank. Far easier than pallies. We got too much nerfed. Our offensive stats used to matter for holding aggro. Our defenses used to be as good as a fighter's to survive a few stacks of annihilation (5 without a healer pre changes, died on the 6th, and 8 with a healer, died on the 9th)

MY SUGGESTIONS (opinions really so take it with a grain of salt. Or the whole bag)

I do wonder if a rework is in order. Templar's wrath for example has not been relevant in years. Or ever for that matter. Everything it can do, is easily achievable with the use of bane or burning light or vow of enmity. It could use some rework. No need for a low dmg low threat generation skill (i know the text says it has increased threat generation, but it really doesnt. I take aggro far easier and faster with bane). Make it give some movement speed or divinity regen or smthng. At least running faster would be beneficial.

As for forte, we could use different stats. Which ones? Well, awareness would be nice I guess. If not that, maybe crit avoidance or power even.

Hp needs a boost for tanks, across the board. 140k loss at the launch of the new combat system. Close to 200k loss now since we need to focus on other stats. Especially pallies have real trouble with that, since we get no bonus to awareness or crit avoidance. And defense does not matter as much as it used to.

Aggro is fine for the most part. We are nowhere near fighter level, but I guess it goes to show, u need better resource management skills to play paladin. Main reason I made a paladin in the first place (although after seeing how braindead stupidly easy fighters are, I am contemplating my life choices). But if the feat intimidating presence were to allow for auto block of attacks during palisade that would be great. Extra aggro, and some dmg reduction. It would make it a valid option in more situations.

Other than these, the game still needs a lot of fixes. The monsters in dungeons are still unbalanced/broken to the point that even tanks die in 2-3 seconds from 1 dot mobs. Let alone 4 dots. It should not be the case. We should be able to tank effectively and without spamming stones of health, or the release button (yeah yeah healers, well healers are nerfed as well).

Some dungeons require a huge overhaul. I made a post about CR a few days ago. It has been years since its release and the bugs it had from the beginning, have still not been fixed. In fact they are even worse now.

It is really tough to play paladin nowadays. I can not speak for Oathkeepers, I tried to make a loadout, I suck at it, I only know they have a ton of issues as well (opinions of oathkeeper mains), and are pretty much dead weight, unless the player invests a huge amount of money to turn them into half a cleric or less.

The only saving grace we have as Justicar paladins is our dmg output if we make a dps loadout for farming zones.
But ofc this is viable for players who have been around for some time. New players attempting this, end up in disaster, since they will most likely enter a REDQ or RTQ with no tankyness, and no prior knowledge of what to do or not do, meaning a dead weight with a shield of paper. Which will put new players off, since there will be someone who will (rightfully too) call them out on them being unable to fulfill their role. An experienced player can get away with this, but new players fall into this trap almost always.

And with the massive role abandonement it is no wonder, that people ask for hours for a tank in PE. Nobody wants to play this role anymore, and paladin mains especially are quitting everyday.

I really hope we see some fixes soon. This has been very frustrating for lots of players. I have started 3 other games, since the combat changes have been announced. And so many others have quit, never to come back. I understand it takes time to make a game great, but maybe this decision put a nail in the coffin. It does not look like the developing team was ready or even adequately prepared for such a massive overhaul. And especially not for the backlash they received. Or did they think we would applaud them and appreciate the nerfs?

armadeonx · February 2021

@darthpotater Nukaze was specifically referring to Paladins when he said everything was fine before the update - as per the topic on this thread. The change to the Defence formula (dropping effectiveness from 90%DR to 50-53%DR?) and enemy HP/DR being matched to dps classes who also now have a 20% dps bonus PLUS dps oriented forte means a significant net drop in the defensive & offensive capabilities of the Paladin class compared to before.

@xaltius#7326 I agree with you. On forte - Pallies originally had Awareness as it's defensive forte but at the last minute @noworries changed it to Deflect Severity without explanation.

According to Rainer's guide on the new stats, Deflect & Deflect severity are the worst stats for a tank to focus on. Not only do they have the least Damage Reduction capability, you have to put stats into TWO categories instead of one. I mean, he could at least have made it critical avoidance!! (single stat, effective on every crit).

You asked if they have a thing about Pallies? I'm pretty sure they do - but I also think removing Awareness was a kneejerk reaction to a video on youtube by Aragorn where he showed on the preview server his pally taking massive hits with very little HP loss and called it something like "Pallys are the new gods of neverwinter". Straight after that came out, we were hit with the new DR formula and removal of Awareness.

The fact that the devs base major decisions about their own changes on youtube videos is a different matter entirely.

datarider · February 2021

just to add to the post above - healing is same situation - all hamster

Paladins Justicar and Oathkeeper is too much nerfed

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