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LET's TALK CLASSES
abn173d2003
Member Posts: 31 Arc User
Now I understand that I may get torn apart for this, but lets talk about the classes we have in game and the difference from the D&D game.
I'm going to run down the list in no real order so please bear with me:
in game Fighter: right now the paths for a fighter are DPS and Tank. The tank part I get, the DPS side of the fighter is a little lacking on options in my opinion. D&D fighter: is DPS and Tank. pretty much the same on paths, however the fighter in D&D can use many different weapons including but not limited to bows, crossbows, duel wield weapons, two handed weapons, ect.
CLERIC: now this one is a bit tricky to talk about. In game its healer or DPS. in D&D the cleric can be the most overpowered class in the realms. truthfully I can not go into this without causing a big fight. and I really don't want to start fights.
Warlock: in game is DPS and Healer in D&D warlock is a eldritch blast using beast among other things depending on the angry evil entity they sold their soul to. although I never seen a warlock as a healer in D&D, it could happen i guess.
Wizard: Ok this is fun, in game DPS or DPS. in D&D it is DPS and a buff style " yes I understand buffs are not in the game anymore". the main difference other than buffs is in D&D you only get a certain number of spells to use in a day, so the game has that over D&D.
Rouge: in game dps or dps. in D&D the rouge is a very complicated class. you could be an assassin, thief, and about 12 other different paths to play with.
Barbarian: in game DPS or Tank(???) in D&D a very angry sword wielding monster, haven't seen a barbarian tank in game but hey who knows, Truthfully Barbarians are some of the best at hitting things period.
Paladin: ok the first of the two hybrid style classes in D&D. in game its tank or healer in D&D the paladin is one the best dps in the realms, Can be a great tank and healer. With that being said the paladin in D&D does not have to have a shield to be very effective. so this class needs to be looked at guys.
Ranger: The other hybrid style class type. in game it's DPS and DPS. in D&D the ranger is basically a hybrid between a fighter and druid. with damage and buffs that can make more damage or buff or heal.
I hope I covered the basics for the classes. I know its vagure but we need something to talk about.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
I'm going to run down the list in no real order so please bear with me:
in game Fighter: right now the paths for a fighter are DPS and Tank. The tank part I get, the DPS side of the fighter is a little lacking on options in my opinion. D&D fighter: is DPS and Tank. pretty much the same on paths, however the fighter in D&D can use many different weapons including but not limited to bows, crossbows, duel wield weapons, two handed weapons, ect.
CLERIC: now this one is a bit tricky to talk about. In game its healer or DPS. in D&D the cleric can be the most overpowered class in the realms. truthfully I can not go into this without causing a big fight. and I really don't want to start fights.
Warlock: in game is DPS and Healer in D&D warlock is a eldritch blast using beast among other things depending on the angry evil entity they sold their soul to. although I never seen a warlock as a healer in D&D, it could happen i guess.
Wizard: Ok this is fun, in game DPS or DPS. in D&D it is DPS and a buff style " yes I understand buffs are not in the game anymore". the main difference other than buffs is in D&D you only get a certain number of spells to use in a day, so the game has that over D&D.
Rouge: in game dps or dps. in D&D the rouge is a very complicated class. you could be an assassin, thief, and about 12 other different paths to play with.
Barbarian: in game DPS or Tank(???) in D&D a very angry sword wielding monster, haven't seen a barbarian tank in game but hey who knows, Truthfully Barbarians are some of the best at hitting things period.
Paladin: ok the first of the two hybrid style classes in D&D. in game its tank or healer in D&D the paladin is one the best dps in the realms, Can be a great tank and healer. With that being said the paladin in D&D does not have to have a shield to be very effective. so this class needs to be looked at guys.
Ranger: The other hybrid style class type. in game it's DPS and DPS. in D&D the ranger is basically a hybrid between a fighter and druid. with damage and buffs that can make more damage or buff or heal.
I hope I covered the basics for the classes. I know its vagure but we need something to talk about.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
9
Comments
As much as I'd be intrigued of having more weapon selection, I am not sure that NW currently has the ruleset to support it.
Right now, classes are locked to a specific weapon type, and I don't think the devs have the time or resources to develop, say, rules for two weapon fighting for non Rogue/Ranger classes right now, or develop new powers and animations for using crossbow.
Additionally, from my limited D&D knowledge, the Fighter's gimmick was that they are very good at fighting, and terrible at non-combat stuff.
NW currently has combat as its only gameplay (and an entrepreneurship minigame, I guess), so I don't know how you would justify Fighter getting access to all weapons while everyone else is limited, aside from the class flavor being "person that trains really hard with weapons". There was that one time where Clerics could cast so many buffs on the party that you would literally just use one rotation and kill 99% of all bosses in the game.
And by that one time, I mean Mod 8-15... I would actually find Warlock interesting if it was magic GWF that uses Eldritch Blast (in other words: a feat path is centered around making Eldritch Blast really really strong). For as much as people want the game to be more D&D-like ... can you imagine Wizards having to wait several hours before they can use their encounter powers?
The rage from that thread would be very very big, and I'd think most D&D fans would be happy that they don't need to rest for 6 or more real life hours before their encounters recharge again.
Last but not least I remember Wizzards as good augmenters. Something like a Haze or Flaming Sword Buff to their friends. In Neverwinter I see nothing comparable.
What don't understand about neverwinter is why paladin attacks are magical based. Makes no sense from D&D perspective...
> Rogues are my favorite and my 1 disappointment is that there's no trap feat like in Neverwinter Nights where you can SET TRAPS and lure enemies into them. There's no point in being able to only disable traps in dungeons everone runs over them anyways.
>
Which is why they need to get rid of injury kits. You run over a trap, you either get a healer to cure it or wait hours for it to heal
The class feature "Greater Endurance" will increase move speed by 10%, but it ins't worth using in battle.
The Encounter "Into the Fray" increases all allies move speed by 20%, but the skill is worthless except in speed runs.
Dreadnought is the DPS
Vanguard is the TANK
Tanks: got screwed. Unless you have the books, you are not getting enough hp. Increase the amount of HP tanks have. My paladin tank has 870k hp (it took effort to actually increase it again after that 140k nerf u guys threw out, thx for that btw, I always wanted to have a squishy tank) and when i change to healer i have 720k. This is ridiculous. DPS have over 650k hp. There is almost no reason to build a tank atm. Just put some hp companion powers on a rogue and u are good to go. Tanks should have at least twice as many hps as other roles. Dont give me that HAMSTER,"oh u have to upgrade stuff to get that much". Tanks with lots of hp should be a given. Whats the point if we die as fast as the dps. Also some enemies in LoMM are still not fixed. On the way to the balor gatekeeper the mobs are 1 dot but they hit like freaking halaster. Unless the tank goes in with DR, we are looking at instant death.
Also is there going to be a change in focused retaliation and other master boons? At the moment they feel kinda underwhelming.
Finally a question. How much awareness does a tank now need? at 47% halaster kills me with arcane blast. Annilate also hits hard but i didnt even make it to the 2nd one. (was only testing things, no party, and before the combat changes i could take 5 annihilates before dying, and 8 annihilates in a training run and survive) BBZ seems to be doing less dmg than before, at least with 47% awareness. Master zariel seems to be doing the same amount of dmg, if not more.
So thats what I would like to ask. Is there gonna be a chart or a recommendation on how much awareness we need for endgame content? And will there be any way to obtain more awareness? Or to break the 50% cap on the gear side?
Wizards: Well they still feel powerless. Totally. Thaumaturge is still dead. Are we gonna see some changes to that? I like that paragon path a lot, but the dmg is about 50% less than Arcanist atm, and even Arcanists are meh. Dont get me wrong. There are a few strong wizards out there, but 90% of all others are basically competing with the healer in terms of dmg at this point. Pathetic. Im even thinking of making a MWGA hat (make wizards great again). I hope you will guys bring thaumaturge back to power. It should be the sorcerer class. It was supposed to be that. Blast stuff. Some new encounters would help with that.
Barbarians: They still look decent. Havent checked mine thorougly. Healing bloodletter doesnt seem so great atm
Did i like the way the game was? hell yeah! especially the old into the fray, but buffs/debuffs+power share+recovery made us way to overpowered.
If they bring buffs/debuffs back, they have to do it in a way that it won't HAMSTER the game up, or else we will have another combat rework eventually.
We or you?
Note that originally all 3 tanks were to get Awareness as their defensive forte but at the last minute it was removed from the Fighter & Pally (not the Barb), causing a significant impact on their survivability.
They replaced it with the highly dubious Deflect Severity - the worst option available.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Can you imagine the common NW leech playing tabletop?
DM: Alright, Dan. You're up. You see you're party's getting swarmed by twigblights and spiders, and one of them has just been engulfed by a shambling mound. What do you do?
Dan the leech: Guess I'll do a downtime activity.
DM: What?!
.... after the fight's over...
DM: Alright. Good job everyone. You manage to staunch your wounds and revive the paladin. Let's see, that's 775 xp for everyone - including Dan - yes. yes, I know he didn't. I get that. Yes, but Dan's still a member of the party. Speaking of - Dan, you've been quiet. What's your character doing at this point?
Dan the leech: "Looking for the loot."
Tanks need Awareness and hit points back please.
I could be false remembering this, but earlier dungeons actually had treasure oriented traps which were dismantled by a Rogue, or at the very least they could "see" the traps ahead as little interactive spots. That's as far as the development of those mechanics went, unfortunately.
For earlier mods if kind of made sense, since you'd assume that these mechanics would expand & grow dynamically as new content arose, so a Rogue would get to be an important role to have in pt.
Rogue would dismantle a trap, after which others would traverse further.
It needn't be anything complicated, either. Stuff like - - - - - There'd be a crack in the wall and something down the lines of "xx could fit here". After dismantling the trap, a mechanism or magic initiative would help build a bridge, or a rope would drop, stuff like that.
It was a cool thought, and I'd love to see something like that implemented in any DnD oriented games.
Tomb of the Nine Gods should've been filled with floors and puzzles everywhere, but I think that there might've been a fear of some [very casual] players not really figuring them out or finding them enjoyable, which is why all puzzles are extremely dumbed down to the point of A to B & B to A system. They feel like a chore more than an enjoyable puzzle to solve, and realistically having a puzzle based system in an action oriented game like NWO seems counter-intuitive.
Having secret areas is a decent thing, but loot should've been more amazing than just having a few trinkets & a few broken glasses. To battle bots, the puzzle should've been something that would take 3 players of different classes to do it.
Among other games where puzzles can potentially work, and with somewhat similar aesthetics & Action Based combat would be Avencast: Rise of the mage. It had a lot of those light-mirror puzzles, pointing the light to the source of a crystal sort of a thing, that was very prominent even in earlier games like Dungeon Siege 2 or similar to that. It is actually one of the more popular puzzle systems I think, since I've seen it in the Shadow of the Tomb Raider, too. And God of War
If you like to deal damage;
Hunter, Sw or Tr is the way to go. You don't need a 50k+ ilevel to do the most damage in any dungeon. Just roll one you like. Because some devs like to play those classes, they are the strongest, Cw is just nerfed with the last patch. Some of the big brothers don't like magic. As for Barb, fighter no, this is not the early neverwinter. If you have muscles you need to be outdps'ed by a cleric. Because HAMSTER lives matter.
If you like to heal:
Only way to go is cleric at the moment. Well, warlocks are quite good too. But why not DC while you can both dps and heal?
Tanking;
Well Both paladin and Vanguard do well. Barbarians, no! Unless you want to block a 1k Hammer with a sword, dont go for it.
It's really simple now.
You don't need to be smart in Neverwinter. Type on Google search "best dps mod20" ... Everything is already there. Do it, hunter ... Oh, relax. Open Netflix next to your game window. Because you don't need to move the mouse. If you want, you can open HAMSTER, you can play with one hand! Just click the red dots, flush, flush, that's it.
You ask why? Because this is the company policy. Don't forget to try Trogue, too, because when some dev are bored, they like to login and play ninja.
The Cleric healing ability is now down to one single encounter power: Healing Word. They quite simply don't have the divinity regen capability to use anything else. It's completely ridiculous that the arbiter/dps path has far better regen - healers should be able to regen divinity via at-will usage too.
Wizards basically suck, but the devs haven't respected this class for years now.
Rogue & Ranger are still fun to play - good powers, good for solo & group content, a little bit squishy if built for pure dps but that's reasonable.
Barbarian - I've shelved mine, it needs too much investment to get decent imo, no longer nice for chugging around mindlessly hacking stuff.
Warlock, surprisingly nice atm once specced up a bit.
As for the comparison to the original dnd, everything is way off the mark.
On the subject of using different weapon types - Baldur's Gate was able to do this in 1998. Why it is beyond the capabilities of Cryptic's developers 23 years later - well, that's just sad.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Take whatever class( excluding warlock and wiz), put whatever gear, whatever companions, up to rank 9 enchantments, and add mirage weapon set.
And in most game content up to LoMM you will not even need to know how play with x class. All is need random keyboard hammering, and you still will be either top or second by most dealt dmg.
32k IL rogue or ranger easily outdps 46k IL warlock. Even if rogue/ranger or even barbie would have random gear parts put on, it still will outperform.
So your conclusions which class is best in dps is wrong. Mirage set is stimply too broken.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
My 38k Rogue is currently using the Alabaster set (from Undermountain) and I've recently out-scored 50k Wizards (twice) AND a 45k Rogue who had the Mirage! The Alabaster has a much more useful bonus for those who've not capped power (my rogue is at appx 82%) than the mirage, which only adds an extra 3x at-will damage for 10 seconds out of every 30.
Mirage is over-hyped and gets blamed for the negative effects some classes are experiencing due to the combat rework.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Here is thing, couple hours ago I where in eDemo, and there where barbie with Lightninght rank 11, + indomitable x6 ranks ~12. And his others enchantments where only up to rank 9.
When his mirage proc and summon these illusions, his dps count fly through the roof. Before my warlock where able finish one power rotation all where dead.
Once illusions gone, then I can match him easily. Then once again illusions up and once again his dps goes out of any sense of logic.
Then very final boss fight come, and he walker over boss as it would be training dummy.
Now that barbie I met like couple days ago, and he is rather new player. Playing like ~2 month at best. Don't have best gear, neither any great parts. But with that he was more than capable stay on top by dps without any problems..
He where doing Edemo with me before he got mirage set, and he was doing way less dps,. But now he can easily walk through game ..
Also why do you think every high dps toons now use mriage set?? IF it would be just overhyped and not doing much dps, no one would bother with it..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I know what you mean though - a lot of people are talking about Xuna's and Mirages but indomitables are under-mentioned.
The logic for me with the Alabaster is that it's rare for a fight to go longer than 10 seconds without me killing something so the bonus is up most of the time in everything except boss fights where there are no adds, so typically I have a nice boost to power and crit nearly all the time which is better than having 3 mirages with me.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
So I don't know the exact values and I'm too lazy to get back into that disgusting game and look but Mirage on legendary has something like 650 i level.
Blessed set of Avernus has 1250ish item level. If you substract the values of Combined ratings you will find a 600ish sum.
This 600 is combined rating difference of the weapons Mirage and Blessed set. But 600 from main hand, 600 from off hand.
It means +600x2 to all offensive and defensive stats: +600 power +600accuracy +600 crit chance +600 crit severity +600 combat advantage.
If we see the +1000 increase of an offensive stat as a 1% increase in damage (which is not the case, for example 1% combat advantage is 1% damage increase only if you have the combat advantage, but if 1% critical chance I think equals to 2.9% damage increase provided your critical severity is 90%, i maybe wrong on this one) +600 to all offensive stats mean 600x5= 3000 stat %3 damage increase. Now we multiply it by 2 because both main hand and off-hand has +600 difference. It nets somewhere around %6 damage increase.
And there is also the iLevel difference. If you drop your iLevel by 1200 (which is the difference between Mirage and Blessed set), your Damage will be reduced by 300. Because damage = Itemlevel / 10 x 1.2 for dps classes)
For example my fighter dreadnought has 6,024 damage (50.199 ilevel - i removed all enchantments, weapon and offensive slots alike to see it better). So If I unequip his honed sword of the blessed blade, it lacks 1250 ilevels. Damage is reduced to 5,874 when i unequip the sword. 6.024 - 5.874 = 150 damage loss. 150/6.024 = 0.0249 ( 2,5%)
(2,5% x2) + %6ish(from +6000 stats) =11%
So; Comparing Mirage with Blessed set with 1250 ilevel there is not much difference. Mirage contributed only 5% of my dps, while Blessed set does 11%.
The advantage of the Mirage set is that it provides a combate advantage in 30 seconds while solo. Because you're turning into some kind of army. But in a dungeon environment, if your tank and other group members know what they are doing, you usually already have combat advantage. I think there will not be a clear difference. The 3-man squad summoned by Mirage can do better aoe damage in a crowded dungeon environment.
So he uses lightning now ok, I'm curious to know if the mirages proc lightning or the Lostmauth set as they could be a source of bonus damage from the mirages? My Ranger doesn't have either atm so I can't test it.
If that barb is a friend of yours and has another weapon set in storage, possibly you could have them do a test?
In short, the mirage bonus in and of itself doesn't do great damage, but it's possible it's proccing other bonuses - but that is pure speculation, as is the comparison between yourself and that barb as there is a huge lack of information on the differences between you and the improvements they have made to their toon since you last did a run together.
We'd need to know the difference in TIL, companion bolster, stat distribution, weapon enchantment, artifact set etc to rule out these factors - also it's entirely possible they are timing their bonuses to trigger with the mirages, e.g. those triggered by Daily & artifact usage - so as to maximise their output into a single 10 second slot.
On the subject of everyone using the Mirage set - people are sheep. Pure and simple. I've seen 'gear snobbery' in this game ever since I started playing it years ago. Most people don't even understand the 'why' behind their choices, they make them based on what everyone else does. As I said earlier - my 38k rogue using Alabaster beat another rogue that was 7k higher and using Mirage. I didn't bother checking the rest of his gear or stat distribution.
Edit: One curious point though. You say this person has been playing for appx 2 months..? That doesn't match up with the realities of the game.
He would've had to have sufficiently levelled his toon to start the River District and completed most of that campaign before saving up for the campaign currency to buy the weapons. Even if he knew to do this as his first priority and did nothing else, it would've taken him longer than that. Also, a rank 11 lightning is currently very expensive for a new player - not to mention x6 indomitables at r12! (also implying he has double slotted companion gear) so either he's dropping $$$ in the zen store or he's been around for longer and possibly has other toons.
New players are more likely to complete Undermountain, Path of the Fallen & Vallenhas before going all-out in somewhere like the River District and its long haul for weapons, so I suspect your assessment of him is somewhat off.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
And he spend lot of money, also there is thing which probably you have encountered..
You play x game and decide move to other game. And if someone from your friends or players whom you know played or play the new game, you ask can you trade with him..
As example, when I migrated from Lineage 2 to Cabal Online, I traded most of my stuffs.. That is In lineage 2 I gived away my stuffs in exchange that same player in Cabal Online would give me his stuffs..
And with latest combat changes, though there where players base increase, there where also ones who left game.. And those even gived away their stuffs..
Some even went as far try sell off accounts via third party websites. But I am sure you have heard about it too.
Now bottom line, you don't agree on my comment so be it. I am not here try to convince you or anyone in forum, I have no interest in it.
I wrote my comment, wrote what I have been ssein from some time ( since mirage fiesta) and what I manage to find out.
Also I have mirage set too, but I don't use,, cuz simply it don't work well with current warlock set up. ( no indomitable rune, bile/lighthing build).
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================