make random queues more inviting

minionbob · January 2021

Maybe this has been discussed before, but would it make sense to have the queue check to see if each player has successfully completed a dungeon/trial and pick from one that pool rather than tossing a group (especially pugs) into something that they have a low probability of making it through? Even more specifically looking at the role they are performing, has this player ever successfully healed/tanked/dps'd this dungeon/trial before? If there is no match then default to the lowest level dungeon/trial available.i realize you have rewards for carrying a first time player through a dungeon,and those could still be available, just not on random queues. I believe more people would be running more random content were it not for the dread of jumping into something that the group is not prepared to finish. It wastes time and is frustrating and would help less experienced players be more successful and encourage them to play more

greywynd · January 2021

...and you want to violate the entire purpose of the random queues.

therealprotex · January 2021

The OP has a point. First time players are a PitA in random queues. MSA, CoDG, CR, LoMM, ... only fail because of new, inexperienced players (or trolls, you can never stop blaming them, too, of course). However, if such a system was installed - which I'd support - it had to check if it is really is a new player or only a new char of a more experienced player.

I agree with the implicit statement of the OP that truely new players should run epic dungeons and trials in a group first that is fully aware of and accepting the inexperienced player. This can be friends, guild mates or a premade random group in the PE. The incentive to take such an inexperienced player along should be a higher "new player reward". Or a different one. Maybe 5 green wards (BtA) or something like that. (Although I can see an exploit with such rewards.)

tchefi · January 2021

therealprotex said:
I agree with the implicit statement of the OP that truely new players should run epic dungeons and trials in a group first that is fully aware of and accepting the inexperienced player. This can be friends, guild mates or a premade random group in the PE.

I reverse the logic :
By tagging dungeons or trials (or queues) without a full group in public, you implicitly accept to get anyone as a picked up guy : pro-gamer, expert, newb, or troll. An old retired dude that has no reflex or 10yo kid. A colorblind girl who can't help on the potions in ToNG because everyone says "g" and "r" instead of "raptor" and "spider", or a onehanded ex military guy who had his other hand chopped off and struggles when there are too much mechanics at once to deal with.
You are by default fully aware about that.
If you don't want to have a bad surprise, you can do a full group. This can be friends, guild mates or premade group in PE.

vaultingfrog · January 2021

What if you had under que options a tag along side hard-core, min itemlevel and such... a tag that accepts a handicap of bringing 1 to 2 new players through a random que. Be it trial or otherwise. This check throws you into a separate que pool where 3 slots are guaranteed to have experienced players, min let's say 25 comps to qualify, while the other 2 become training run slots.

Incentives can be bound to character, however there is no kicking allowed. Only way out is to have your game crash and you loose all reward possibilities. Vote to abandon also works if the que becomes impossible (though it shouldnt). Thus players can't sign up for it, vote kick the new player and score rewards with a speed run.

If you really wanted to show off you could even have a public board showing the amount if guided dungeons a player has done, similar to the milestone thing if you want.

vastano · January 2021

i always find myself going through 4 main options on redq or rtq
1 alliance and guild if not filled in a decent amount of time then
2 channel (all experianced)
3 pe (can inspect a applicant (when inspect is working which it isnt right now)
4 just q
i avoid option 4 in REDQ all together and in rtq will only q for 1 of either dps tank or heals

ziggerlin · January 2021

It's actually all levels now, too, not just REDQs. In reality, I'd just like to see random queues more random. Even the regular RDQs now wind up being Cloak Tower 3/4 of the time. And the recent combat changes have made that one the worst.

minionbob · January 2021

> @greywynd said:
> ...and you want to violate the entire purpose of the random queues.
You run random queues to get AD, do you not? Random queues, regardless of pug or premade, are all about getting you daily dose of diamonds, why else would you chance getting stuck in ravenloft? I have a soulweaver that cannot finish lomm, never has, probably never will. I have had to take the hit and endure a leaver penalty just for the benefit of the other players, and before the 'get good' comments come flying in, I do fine in other dungeons, just can't keep everyone upright in that particular one. Why waste everyone's time when a more proficient system could be implemented?

greywynd · January 2021

Yes, let us automatically exclude those that don't have prior experience in a dungeon, insuring that they will never get that experience. Or let us exclude those that are primarily solo players that may not have guild mates, allies, or friends in the game, because the only means they may have to run a dungeon is to queue for it and have the random fill the party, or simply queue random themselves (to get AD, according to you).

Why is your time more valuable than the time of people attempting to play the game and maybe trying to get experience in new dungeons?

liadan1984 · January 2021

A couple of DPS friends and I (I main a cleric healer) ran REDQ not long before the servers went down for the map reboot, the three of us got dropped into a LOMM right before the second boss, 35 or so minutes in, one DPS waiting for us. multiple deaths, not sure of how many attempts at this boss. We waited a minute for a tank to pop in, and then.. Well... we finished the dungeon...
The second boss would definitely not be friendly for an inexperienced healer, or one that is undergeared/under powered.

But my point is... We queued knowing that we would possibly get a dungeon that we wouldn't enjoy, with people who don't know the mechanics.

But, we have been there ourselves, we have been the ones learning new dungeons, and, mostly, we don't mind teaching people, and we can carry people through (although we aren't in the elite 1% who were able to finish dungeons in record times, we're still pretty good).

greywynd · January 2021

minionbob said:

You run random queues to get AD, do you not? Random queues, regardless of pug or premade, are all about getting you daily dose of diamonds, why else would you chance getting stuck in ravenloft? I have a soulweaver that cannot finish lomm, never has, probably never will. I have had to take the hit and endure a leaver penalty just for the benefit of the other players, and before the 'get good' comments come flying in, I do fine in other dungeons, just can't keep everyone upright in that particular one. Why waste everyone's time when a more proficient system could be implemented?

Let's make it a lot more simple and inviting:

If you have a problem running randoms with PUGs, remove yourself from the equation and take up the burden; YOU gather 4 of your friends/allies/guild mates and party up to run randoms.

minionbob · January 2021

Wow, so salty, geesh. I do take the hit as I said I will take the leaver penalty if I know I can't do my job to let the rest of the party complete the dungeon with someone who can, I have done this with pug and prebuilt, guild and alliance. It isn't meant to leave out the inexperienced players, it allows the to finish without being roasted for not knowing what to do. You can teach others if the group is willing to do so, but if is not, the new guy usually takes a beating and gets yelled at or kicked ( which leaves them feeling bad). I was just trying to make a suggestion that might give players a more enjoyable experience. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

autumnwitch · January 2021

minionbob said:
> @greywynd said:

> ...and you want to violate the entire purpose of the random queues.

You run random queues to get AD, do you not? Random queues, regardless of pug or premade, are all about getting you daily dose of diamonds, why else would you chance getting stuck in ravenloft? I have a soulweaver that cannot finish lomm, never has, probably never will. I have had to take the hit and endure a leaver penalty just for the benefit of the other players, and before the 'get good' comments come flying in, I do fine in other dungeons, just can't keep everyone upright in that particular one. Why waste everyone's time when a more proficient system could be implemented?

Believe it not people still run dungeons for loot, XP (including learning mechanics), fun and completion. Not everyone in the game is all about AD. SMH

greywynd · January 2021

minionbob said:
Wow, so salty, geesh. I do take the hit as I said I will take the leaver penalty if I know I can't do my job to let the rest of the party complete the dungeon with someone who can, I have done this with pug and prebuilt, guild and alliance. It isn't meant to leave out the inexperienced players, it allows the to finish without being roasted for not knowing what to do. You can teach others if the group is willing to do so, but if is not, the new guy usually takes a beating and gets yelled at or kicked ( which leaves them feeling bad). I was just trying to make a suggestion that might give players a more enjoyable experience. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

100% completion of any dungeon is not and should not be guaranteed at any level.

I leave if I am not in the mood to run whatever comes up. I leave if the people in the group with me manage to annoy me on way or another. For example: I was in the Cloak Tower on my paladin trying to get used to the changes. I was taking hits that before the changes wouldn't bother me. I was holding aggro, and aside from needing the healing assistance from time to time everything was going fine. Except for the healer's tendency to throw everything everywhere with sunburst. Asked them not to do it. No acknowledgement. After their second time in doing it after I asked them not to, I left.

armadeonx · January 2021

Excluding players from running dungeons for the first time is a no-go imo. Solo random queue is used primarily by people that don't have immediate access to the 'leet' groups or a large pool of guildies/friends to group up with and as Greywynd said, if they can't get the experience here, where are they going to get it? They would be locked out forever.

Perhaps the item level limits for each dungeon need to be looked at and possibly having a system where characters unlock dungeons in order - so they experience all of the lower dungeons before finding themselves in lomm etc? That would give them experience of playing their class in dungeon content before being dumped into one that really needs them to understand their role in a group situation.

I came back from a 2.5yr break recently, levelled up & geared up my DC to 26k+, hit "random epic queue" and found myself in LOMM. Yes I made mistakes, but we finished easily enough - because I'd played DC for several years before my break and understood my role.

Edit: on the item level point, I found myself in Tiamat the other day and the group was totally undergeared for it. I inspected one person - they had rank 1 Undermountain weapons with not a single refinement point in them and no weapon enchantment. regardless of their experience, this person had no business being loaded into Tiamat and it's not their fault - the random queue system allowed them in when it shouldn't have.

therealprotex · January 2021

greywynd said:
Yes, let us automatically exclude those that don't have prior experience in a dungeon, insuring that they will never get that experience. Or let us exclude those that are primarily solo players that may not have guild mates, allies, or friends in the game, because the only means they may have to run a dungeon is to queue for it and have the random fill the party, or simply queue random themselves (to get AD, according to you).

Why is your time more valuable than the time of people attempting to play the game and maybe trying to get experience in new dungeons?

Because a MMORPG should primarily support the majority of players and players who refuse to play anything than solo are not the majority in such a game. There are a lot of guilds that are made for casual players. A reward for taking along inexperienced players would encourage the PE crowd to take such players along. To claim that a suggestion like the above would exclude anyone is simply very far from the truth. And you know that.

therealprotex · January 2021

armadeonx said:
Excluding players from running dungeons for the first time is a no-go imo. Solo random queue is used primarily by people that don't have immediate access to the 'leet' groups or a large pool of guildies/friends to group up with and as Greywynd said, if they can't get the experience here, where are they going to get it? They would be locked out forever.

Seriously, if that was true for the majority of inexperienced playes, far more than just 5% (my personal gut feeling) would actually take the advices from more experienced players. The truth is, they don't. Everytime MSVA fails, it fails because such players do not listen to the advice to take care of the ice at once. Everytime CoDG fails, it fails because such players do not listen to the advice how to handle the skull and the slime cubes. No, in my experience the vast majority of these players expects to be carried through RTQ and REDG for the rewards.

rev · February 2021

minionbob said:
I believe more people would be running more random content were it not for the dread of jumping into something that the group is not prepared to finish. It wastes time and is frustrating and would help less experienced players be more successful and encourage them to play more

lol you are completly wrong, they implemented random q's because people were running the same dungeon, and by dungeon i mean the old 5 minute run epic temple of the spider, over and over again and ignoring the rest to get faster/easier AD (btw these were the true good old days, when you could refine epic gear you got from dugeons into diamonds)...

armadeonx · February 2021

therealprotex said:

armadeonx said:
Excluding players from running dungeons for the first time is a no-go imo. Solo random queue is used primarily by people that don't have immediate access to the 'leet' groups or a large pool of guildies/friends to group up with and as Greywynd said, if they can't get the experience here, where are they going to get it? They would be locked out forever.
Seriously, if that was true for the majority of inexperienced playes, far more than just 5% (my personal gut feeling) would actually take the advices from more experienced players. The truth is, they don't. Everytime MSVA fails, it fails because such players do not listen to the advice to take care of the ice at once. Everytime CoDG fails, it fails because such players do not listen to the advice how to handle the skull and the slime cubes. No, in my experience the vast majority of these players expects to be carried through RTQ and REDG for the rewards.

You're always going to have players who take things seriously and those that don't - and usually those that don't are the poorly geared ones who probably queued hoping for ToS or similar but the system put them in something a lot harder. That's why I said maybe the IL for RQ needs to be looked at.

Speaking as a player who takes things very seriously, tries to learn the mechanics of a new dungeon by watching and listening and kick myself if I mess up, most dungeons that I experience for the first time I learn through queuing with randoms. Yes, I know that many other players don't take this approach but I don't see how excluding people from random queuing would help much and given how most premades are looking for seriously geared players, you'd be limiting access in a very unfair way.

On this point, I'll remind those who were around for the forum discussions just prior to the introduction of RQ: Players specifically asked for an extra tier of difficulty for dungeons/skirmishes - so we'd have easy/mid/hard and with 3 different IL requirements. What Cryptic gave us only separated the newest dungeon from the two tier system they gave us (instead of the newest 3 that we asked for).

If they'd gone with the method players had asked for, RQs would have far fewer issues than they do now.

hadestemplar · February 2021

minionbob said:
Maybe this has been discussed before, but would it make sense to have the queue check to see if each player has successfully completed a dungeon/trial and pick from one that pool rather than tossing a group (especially pugs) into something that they have a low probability of making it through? Even more specifically looking at the role they are performing, has this player ever successfully healed/tanked/dps'd this dungeon/trial before? If there is no match then default to the lowest level dungeon/trial available.i realize you have rewards for carrying a first time player through a dungeon,and those could still be available, just not on random queues. I believe more people would be running more random content were it not for the dread of jumping into something that the group is not prepared to finish. It wastes time and is frustrating and would help less experienced players be more successful and encourage them to play more

Why you simply not join guild/alliance and do random q's with them? Or with players from your friend list?

What you actually want is change game to please you, that is not how it work. No player is center of game, everyone here are just part of it, nothing more and nothing less.

Other thing, how new players have to learn? You where newbie too. So instead pushing own agendas, start look to situation from whole player base spectrum.
Also need to mention, combat changes is not even 1 month old, and lot of players haven't yet adapted to it.. Or I should say players haven't learn how actually play this game.
In previous system all is was needed either high stats or stats + dps companion. And you could walk through any content without need to pay attention to mechanics.
Also other players get used that some few well geared players will get in random q and carry whole group.

As I wrote in thread about Cradle of Death god and why new players fail there. I can repeat here again.

Untill players start to pay attenion to whats happening in your pc/laptop screen, failures will be more offten..
After failing 10 or 20 times, players will put their EGO asside, and either start read guides or ask advices about mechanics.

rev · February 2021

hadestemplar#9918 said:

After failing 10 or 20 times, players will put their EGO asside, and either start read guides or ask advices about mechanics.

this made me remember a time when i was healing on Tiamat and kept watching people run into the ice on the white head, die, respawn, run into the ice and die over and over again in the same exact way

tchefi · February 2021

minionbob said:
Wow, so salty, geesh. I do take the hit as I said I will take the leaver penalty if I know I can't do my job to let the rest of the party complete the dungeon with someone who can, I have done this with pug and prebuilt, guild and alliance.

That's all in your honor, and i mean it. Recognizing you can be a burden is one thing, but a group should always at least try once together.

Personnally i don't need more rAD on my 30M of stockpile, so whenever i do a ReDQ without a full premade it's usually for fun or to help a friend/guildy.
If one day you land in a dungeon you don't think being able to do, you should talk/ warn the party before that you don't think being strong enough for that. It's then up to the party to let you know if they are ok to try with your, or not.
After all the years, I can't count the number of random players my various parties got and who either been noticed to be new players (thank to the yellow message in the middle of the screen) or have voiced their concerns regarding how they can perform in whatever dungeon they perceived to be too hard for them.
They more often than not got my parties patience (even when I had no friend or guildy with me), always mine. They got our offer to give explainations and/or a bit of hard trying if the newb was on a crucial role (tolerating more or less 2-3 wipes on every boss before deciding it's over), or a carry at slow pace so they can discover the mechanics by themselves and enjoy the run.
The newby I meet and help today in ReDQ may be one more expert I can count in my friendlist to smoothly run with in some months.
That's my vision of not premade public queue.

minionbob said:
it allows the to finish without being roasted for not knowing what to do. You can teach others if the group is willing to do so, but if is not, the new guy usually takes a beating and gets yelled at or kicked ( which leaves them feeling bad).

For that, it's an education issue.
Unfortunately, online games gather all sort of people in a parallel virtual world, where cards are shuffled compared to the IRL. Among them are haters, uneducated individuals, frustrated ones, vulgar ones, cocky ones, etc... and some of them love spilling their gall at the slightest opportunity... for whatever meaningless (or not) reason(s) in their lifes.

It's up to us to not let this behaviour pass freely when we meet it, it's up to us to not remain silent when we see this happening in front of our eyes. It's up to us to not close our eyes.
Personnally, I always voice my displeasure in my party when someone gets a beating, is yelled at, or is kicked only because he performs poorly.
My opinion is : if the player seems to do his best, then we should, as experienced players, put our brains on and try to find a way to compensate, if possible. Even if it means 3 or 4 wipes or a complete failure: we fail as a group.
Most of the time, no one has any good reasons to yell at or kick "low dps" "bad tank" "poor healer".
Most of the time, the yellers and kickers are in fact quite low skilled players with not much knowledge beyond the meta.
In the case i'm in the group, more often than not the yeller gets a verbal/textual lesson on behaviour (longer if he persists or debates), sometimes my kickvote (always fun to succeed in kicking someone who screams like a pug), sometimes a report for harassing if I think he has gone too far.
And/or, if the majority doesn't side with me, then the party will also loose their best dps (usually), their tank or their heal as, rather than helping the imbecile(s) one(s) to get his(their) chests, I'm quite prone to bail out and offer the "victim" to run the dungeon again in private with me + a full premade i can gather in a snap.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

vaultingfrog · February 2021

A point of order here.... its not necessarily new players who mess up. I see tons of players with Lionheart, celestial, and their capes who still have no clue how to deal with hypos and other stuff that has been basic mechanics for many mods....

Yes some are carries however there are plenty who aren't. So please don't just blame new players. Many vets struggle with their epeen issues and ignore mechanics just to attempt to make the boards, and still fail....

Also, why is it everyone wants to take away the pally ability to play normal content by themselves by continuing to nerf dps companions into the ground? Havent we suffered enough neutering already? Unless an augment can make soloing possible (it doesn't btw) please leave what little we have left alone. Just cause you can hit for 500k doesn't mean we do....

hadestemplar · February 2021

@vaultingfrog#2497 I would rather do content with totally new players in this game.
Rather with old/well geared players with big ego.

The reason is that,, like you wrote not only new players mess up stuffs.. Some well geared, who get used for old gameplay, where they could walk through any mechancis. They come to group and try push same way to play.
Also due previous system, it was not needed to learn mechanic, so even high end players may not even aware of mechanics. And only now have to do them properly.

I don't judge by gear, or judge by players actions..

coolgor28 · February 2021

What mechanic is there outside tomm and zariel that veteran players need to watch out after rework all dungeons are same speed cleared not a change for veterans. At least all who have tomm or zariel weapon especially capes at least have learned some hard mechanics and needed training for this .

therealprotex · February 2021

armadeonx said:
Speaking as a player who takes things very seriously, tries to learn the mechanics of a new dungeon by watching and listening and kick myself if I mess up, most dungeons that I experience for the first time I learn through queuing with randoms. Yes, I know that many other players don't take this approach but I don't see how excluding people from random queuing would help much and given how most premades are looking for seriously geared players, you'd be limiting access in a very unfair way.

Noone wants to exclude anyone forever. The suggestion was that only those who never ran an epic dungeon/trial are excluded from joining redq/rtq solo. And the other suggestion was to increase the incentive drastically for premade groups to take such a player along. What do you think how the lfm messages in the PE would change if the incentive was a coalesence ward (exaggerating maybe, but just to give you an idea) for taking a "new" player along?

therealprotex · February 2021

hadestemplar#9918 said:
After failing 10 or 20 times, players will put their EGO asside, and either start read guides or ask advices about mechanics.

That made me laugh. Except for a very few martyrs, no experienced player would start cradle 10 or 20 times over, after it failed every time because of "new" players who refuse to take advice. The majority of experienced players leaves after first or second failure or trys to kick the "new" player(s).

Maybe it is different in other daytimes than when I play, maybe I am really "unlucky" to mostly get PUG'ed with such people, no idea, but form my experience, only very, very few "new" players actually read the chat and take advice.

armadeonx · February 2021

therealprotex said:

armadeonx said:
Speaking as a player who takes things very seriously, tries to learn the mechanics of a new dungeon by watching and listening and kick myself if I mess up, most dungeons that I experience for the first time I learn through queuing with randoms. Yes, I know that many other players don't take this approach but I don't see how excluding people from random queuing would help much and given how most premades are looking for seriously geared players, you'd be limiting access in a very unfair way.
Noone wants to exclude anyone forever. The suggestion was that only those who never ran an epic dungeon/trial are excluded from joining redq/rtq solo. And the other suggestion was to increase the incentive drastically for premade groups to take such a player along. What do you think how the lfm messages in the PE would change if the incentive was a coalesence ward (exaggerating maybe, but just to give you an idea) for taking a "new" player along?

Well offering coal wards would certainly have people looking for new players to carry through - lol.

I suggested in that same post that new players be forced to unlock (run for the 1st time) all epic dungeons in order of difficulty. That would progressively give them some role experience before reaching the harder ones - maybe even 3-5 completions per dungeon?

coolgor28 · February 2021

I don't see where is the problem all were new player in the beginning and wanted to try dungeons, if you are pugging like going with your own will in random public you know that runs will not be easy.
So either make your own group and ask for whatever you want or just try and help players that don't know the dungeon, don't ask for players to be left out of dungeons.

make random queues more inviting

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