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New Combat System Tank view and Problems

xtremozxtremoz Member Posts: 291 Arc User
Hi all,

My main Char is a Fighter was 35k ilv now I'm 49kish, I use to do end game now I cant do most content. I have 80% defense 60%/75% awareness 55%/65% crit avoid.

Lets start with the cap system, 50%(ratings) + 40% (% ratings)... rating are okish, % Status are not there not enough sources and the ones there are are to low. For what I understand there % in Boons, companion powers and potions.

Boons: 0.2% per points is useless, 5points to get 1% lets say I as a tank have 50% awareness from rating I can go 51% with boons there only 1 boon for it, same goes for accuracy, crit... and all other status in boons... except power x4 power boon (power is kind of useless for Tank, and most dps have it cap with forte).

0.2% per boon is a back joke, 50% + 1% boons miles away from cap. make it a minimum 1% per point so players can get 5% .

Companions: we can have 5 companion power, 3.8% + 3.8% or 7,5%... so a total of lets use 3.8%x2x5(comps)=38% status that all we have
we have 20 different status or so they all need % sources to that 40% over 50% rating.

Potions: potions give us % satus what is good, I think those are ok. if we compare watermelon sorbet 10% power and 10% accuracy, u see the joke it is work to get 5 boon point to get 1%.

Conclusion: we need more sources of % status and to increase the existing ones, make 1% per boon point and a minimum of double the companion Powers bonus.


______________________________________________________________________________________


HP: here the main problem starts, specially for a Tank Like me. I had 1.1mil HP, Now I have 800k where my DPS friends had 400k and now 600k.

Changing the boost to Tank HP from 40% to 20% is a bad move, and its Nerf on top of nerf. MY mount use to give me 50k HP was lowered, my boons on HP lower, companions with HP lowers, stones with HP lower...

Like losing 300k HP (even after upgrading companions to Mythic) is even worst when my block is based on my HP, less HP less Block... and on top of that block when from Blocking dmg = to 50% my HP to 40%. We tank lost HP and even got a cut on the % of our HP block can do.
As Fighter Tank our base mechanic on Tab is DIG IN it use to block dmg = to 75% of HP, now is 60%

Conclusion: HP cut of 20% bonus on tank + 10% cut on block + 15% cut on dig in is to much.


____________________________________________________________________


Stamina regeneration: is to slow, I have 60% Stamina regeneration and can get full stamina between 2 big hit on a boss rotation. We block less cuz of HP cuts and block cuz... if we don't get the stamina back fast even at 60% regen... we dead 1 shot.


____________________________________________

Combine Rating Vs Item level: this needs to be address, all increases ilv + than combine ratings... lets say I have a ring 1010 ilv 808 combine ratings and change it for a 1100 ilv 880.

1100 - 1010 = 90 ilv
880 - 808 = 82 combine ratings

lets say I have 30.000 total combine rating and 50.000 ilv, now with new ring I have 30.082 CR and 50.100ilv

50.100 - 30.082 = 20.018 all my ratings are now more distant from ILv... repeat this for all gear, enchants... and u get what I mean.

Collars are even worst at this effect 300 combine 600 ilv at purple to 500 combine 1000 ilv.

_________________________________________


Gear: Gear need to be adjust on equip power, u did changed 3 pieces of T3 hunt drops and the others?? 8K power when you have temp HP we that wear it had the same hard time farming T3 lure and killing it. 10k power when only 1 enemy, and so on all power power power from T3, all power from Divine gear... Most gear ingame from last 2 Modules is power bases... power every 5sec, power when u heal, power when u kill....
Changing just 3 pieces is a joke, why no Awareness and Deflect, Crit avoid... I'm a tank even if I use it, will never do 10% my HP to proc it.

Conclusion: all Gear from last 2 Mods have equip bonus based on power that needs a change, Tank need gear also, where are defense/deflect/crit avoid/awareness gear bonus... that proc for tank (when you deflect, when u crit, when u take 30% dmg).


______________________________________________


Sorry for the long post!
Hope some DEV can read it a think about it... A tank that get 1 shot is not a tanks, Tanks does low dmg, have a lot HP and is hard to kill.

Comments

  • auron#6793 auron Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    ?I play a barbie tank (i know iknow) and have noticed much of what you've mentioned. I can barly tank valindras castle (which i could do fine before) without dieing to the cat thingys before the second boss. the HP nerf should never have happened especialy if the dps are taking 5 times as long to kill even trash mobs. it takes so long both my shields and unstopable fail and i get killed.

    The leveling dungeons are even worse for my shields failing before the little dps can chip away enough to kill the mobs.
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  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Member Posts: 604 Arc User
    xtremoz said:

    melechest said:

    on log it show like 600k (1.2mil) meaning my defense blocked half but I have 80%, are they only counting ratings in defense formula? and forgetting the % from companion/forte?

    AFAIK a defense stat of 90% means that 50% of the damage will be mitigated. Unfortunately there is no information about that on the character sheet. You have to find the corresponding notes on the preview forum to know about that.


  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 882 Arc User


    There are no issues with gearing a tank in the new system, the only issue is the steep learning curve. As soon as everyone gets used to the new system, everyone will be ok :)
    Elite Whaleboy
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 451 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:



    There are no issues with gearing a tank in the new system, the only issue is the steep learning curve. As soon as everyone gets used to the new system, everyone will be ok :)

    And buying curve. Everything a tank had geared became garbage.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    > @stark760 said:
    > And buying curve. Everything a tank had geared became garbage.

    I still use half of my radiants, all my empowered and all my enigmatic enchants/runestones.
    I still use all my fortitude insignia.
    I still use the same mount equip/combat powers.

    I swapped from combat advantage reinforcements to awareness reinforcements, then upgraded companions based on meticulous planning using @rainer#8575 Character Builder.

    When I read about players spending gazillions of AD for rebalancing toons, I really wonder what they are actually spending it all on....

    If you care to take the time to learn how to build in the new system, you can actually build a TOMM capable tank mostly financed by the AD you get from bonding exchange.

    Spending time on posting about made up issues in forums is wasting valuable time that could be spent actually learning how to properly build in the new system.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 451 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @stark760 said:

    > And buying curve. Everything a tank had geared became garbage.


    I still use half of my radiants, all my empowered and all my enigmatic enchants/runestones.

    I still use all my fortitude insignia.

    I still use the same mount equip/combat powers.


    I swapped from combat advantage reinforcements to awareness reinforcements, then upgraded companions based on meticulous planning using @rainer#8575 Character Builder.


    When I read about players spending gazillions of AD for rebalancing toons, I really wonder what they are actually spending it all on....


    If you care to take the time to learn how to build in the new system, you can actually build a TOMM capable tank mostly financed by the AD you get from bonding exchange.


    Spending time on posting about made up issues in forums is wasting valuable time that could be spent actually learning how to properly build in the new system.

    You must get paid from them to be ignoring the HP nerfs on everything, which is what tanks upgraded. Guild boon, mount bonus, etc. I'm at work, sorry I can't try and rebalance right now. I didn't have tons of companion tokens, as I got back to game a little over a month ago, and old lockboxes didn't give nearly as many, or had companion tokens on bar store at all. It cost to upgrade 2 comps last night, mainly soaking up the money they handed out for nerfing the bondings. So yeah, either stay in 40%'s on stats, or upgrade more comps, since all HP comps need to be replaced.
  • xtremozxtremoz Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:



    There are no issues with gearing a tank in the new system, the only issue is the steep learning curve. As soon as everyone gets used to the new system, everyone will be ok :)

    Ok so all enchants max, most mounts max, most companions max... i want to see u go tank TIC as it is with 0 mythic companions, with 0 mythic mounts.... and u have all potions you can find in the game, elixir for deflect/deflect sev, caprese for 10% deflect, u are doing dig in, for the 15% awareness and 10% block. and u using Chains from chult for 6%. and most probably companion 7.5% status on hit (max)

    Neck and belt set for 1+ to all attributes (most players don't have and if they come back is on ZEN like before)

    Now look on a mid player side the 1s, without tomm weapon, and T#3 gear. and go do TIC with a group of dps and healers also not max.

    As u said u get close with all BIS (doesnt show but my guess is 51k ilv). they also said you be close and able to do what u were doing... the truth is in the game current state u cant.

    TOMM and ZARIEL were for the ELITE.. now TIC also and the new dungeon???


    Sorry if iam not at your lv, iam even more sorry for tanks starting the game now.... and see when they gonna have ToMM gear.... T3 gear, max mount max companions.


    But since Im a nice person I tell you what u want to hear. Congratulations on capping defense and awareness, now tell me how my 29k ilv tank that is now 40k will tank Tic like I did every single day before the system rework... were 30-35min TIC's but no deaths... now... spends Gazillions AD.
  • exgardianexgardian Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    Wow... What acessories/companions you use to reach that Awareness ?
    2fv72Fw.png
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,345 Arc User
    edited January 26
    xtremoz said:

    Other thing I notice and would like other tank to tell me if they see the same... on log it show like 600k (1.2mil) meaning my defense blocked half but I have 80%, are they only counting ratings in defense formula? and forgetting the % from companion/forte?

    The formula for Defense/DR, from classic through Mod 19, was:

    Mitigated Damage = Damage * [1-(Defense-Enemy ArmorPen)] * (other stuff), where the Defense-ArmorPen section can go no lower than 0

    Some time during the preview combat changes (too lazy to find page), the Defense formula was changed to (but not explicitly stated) and currently is on PC:

    Mitigated Damage = Damage * [1/(1+Defense)]

    So if the player stacks 90% Defense in this new system, you'll have (1/1.9), or the mitigated damage will be 52.63% as effective as normal. Or, in other words, stacking 90% Defense will reduce enemy incoming damage by 48.37%.

    Also, because I can: blame @rainer#8575 !

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    @xtremoz

    You said "Status are not there not enough sources and the ones there are are to low",
    This is false for all gear levels.

    You said "Changing the boost to Tank HP from 40% to 20% is a bad move, and its Nerf on top of nerf."
    This is false, the change to HP is in line with the new system, and enough HP is achieveable for all gearing levels.

    You said " We block less cuz of HP cuts and block cuz... if we don't get the stamina back fast even at 60% regen... we dead 1 shot."
    This is false and clearly an issue with playstyle.

    You said "50.100 - 30.082 = 20.018 all my ratings are now more distant from ILv."
    You deliberately ignore the fact that the stats gear is focused on (example 3k defense ring) is increasing, making your character stronger in total. Wrong understanding of the combined rating system.

    Your power gear concern solved with M20 gear adjustment.

    You said "Sorry if iam not at your lv, iam even more sorry for tanks starting the game now.... and see when they gonna have ToMM gear.... T3 gear, max mount max companions."
    You dont need any of these items to tank any content (including M20 Vault of Stars). See below example for budget TOMM gearing.

    @maxzius#3795

    "Also, as Stark said, you come off as a fanboy who has no clue what's going on when you can't distinguish the difference between what the mid game players are going through and what characters like yours and mine are."
    I am very well aware of the difference between endgame and mid-game players.
    In the below example I show the build I used to test what is absolute minimum for IC and TOMM completion.
    No mythic mounts, no legendary insignia, no higher than r12 enchants (r9 weapon enchant), all free to obtain gear (even the mount is free from refer-a-friend program).
    The screenshot I shared earlier is clearly an example of very close to max gearing, and in use to demonstrate that there are no lack of HP sources (the loadout in screenshot can reach 1.000.000+++ HP with minor adjustments).
    If you had been following preview feedback on the new system, you could have seen me tank TOMM in a loadout based on Drowcraft gear.
    My goal is to help players that obviously do not understand the new system, if that is what you define as "fanboy who has no clue what's going on", I will proudly wear that title.







    Elite Whaleboy
  • xtremozxtremoz Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    @wilbur626

    you can have the status looking good in that build u showing, go to TIC with 622k HP and survive to a tail attack. Show status... show me you fighitng a TIC boss with those status. The status may look good but the hit are so high that 600k HP + dig in block u still die... Maybe the dmg need to be adjusted... but thats is a 2nd way to fix this or u give more status or u lower the dmg.

    Now dont tell me that build can do TIC as u could pre changes. (with a cleric healer, no temo shields)
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    @xtremoz

    I have done both IC and TOMM with the build
    Elite Whaleboy
  • xtremozxtremoz Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @xtremoz

    You said "Status are not there not enough sources and the ones there are are to low",
    This is false for all gear levels.

    You said "Changing the boost to Tank HP from 40% to 20% is a bad move, and its Nerf on top of nerf."
    This is false, the change to HP is in line with the new system, and enough HP is achieveable for all gearing levels.

    You said " We block less cuz of HP cuts and block cuz... if we don't get the stamina back fast even at 60% regen... we dead 1 shot."
    This is false and clearly an issue with playstyle.

    You said "50.100 - 30.082 = 20.018 all my ratings are now more distant from ILv."
    You deliberately ignore the fact that the stats gear is focused on (example 3k defense ring) is increasing, making your character stronger in total. Wrong understanding of the combined rating system.

    Your power gear concern solved with M20 gear adjustment.

    You said "Sorry if iam not at your lv, iam even more sorry for tanks starting the game now.... and see when they gonna have ToMM gear.... T3 gear, max mount max companions."
    You dont need any of these items to tank any content (including M20 Vault of Stars). See below example for budget TOMM gearing.

    I love the way u refuse all I say, but I see no prove.

    IF dmg block on shield is base on HP, u have less HP u block less, u have less % of HP in that block u block less.
    1mil HP 50% block (block 500k dmg before shield break)
    800k HP 50% block (block 400k dmg before shield break)
    800k HP 40% block (block 320k dmg before shield break)

    Its math not play style.

    ___________________________________________

    The 3k ring u talk about. increases the defense for 3k but also increases your ilv.

    If the ilv goes up 90 and combine rating go up 80, u lose 10 over all status except defense.

    __________________________________________


    MOD 20 will fix... we on mod 19. "its ok to starve in winter, u will eat on spring".

    And if the solution is MOD 20 gear why change 3 pieces of T3? oh ofc all end game were complaining about it... since they dont complain about none BiS gear they didnt change it.


  • xtremozxtremoz Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @xtremoz

    I have done both IC and TOMM with the build

    what build 51k ilv or 37k ilv? in test server or life?
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited January 26
    @xtremoz

    37k,47k, 51k

    37k is minimum at my skill level (I suck at trial tanking)

    On test, I’m not able to gimp myself like that on live. Find me in Rainers discord, I can send you the combat log file and screenshots
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,774 Arc User
    edited January 26
    We now have some good news for tanks:

    Chain of Scales is being upgraded to match the numbers from Bel's Relic (I assume they mean the Vibrating Forger's Box? I'm not sure) - so should provide an Awareness bonus of 2k?

    New artifact set will provide a set bonus of 5% awareness & 5% damage reduction after standing still for 3 seconds - though they've not yet confirmed if the DR is a secondary layer or added to your DR stat - which would suck).

    Hopefully this is just the start and we'll see a couple of new companions and an insignia bonus with good Awareness stats.
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  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 293 Arc User
    Tanks are doing fine in the new system dungeon-wise, just takes knowing how to build your character. Wilbur's helped a lot with getting through the changes for people and helped calmed some tensions with good break-downs of fighter tank on preview forums, check it out when you can if you need full explanations.

    The main issues tanks have had is just lack of anything useful in newer mods with useful bonuses and things consistently being taken or 'rebalanced' from us. Hopefully with the new armor being a start, we'll see new items for tanks coming up.

    All else fails for you, wait until feral velociraptor is cheaper, get it, yell at everyone else to wear it :p
  • maximax#7117 maximax Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    remove the bugged ring of the condemned +5 and tell me you are fine with aggro.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited January 26
    I didn't build my char around that ring, as on preview stats were bugged. I use defender's and electrum, no issues with aggro.

    Second build uses overwhelming for the 10% damage reduction, and helps keep me at 42k for crit avoid/deflect/awareness, so the feat works perfectly.
  • maximax#7117 maximax Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    as paladin i have bad time keeping aggro with good dps, before combat rework i was fine.
This discussion has been closed.