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Legacy Scaling - The Real Fine Concept Behind the Changes
oktlryk
Member Posts: 149 Arc User
+++ EDIT: STATS DONT CAP BY HAVING THEM ABOVE DUNGEON IL - ITS THE % PART SCALED FOR THE DUNGEON +++
OK So I was hanging around, seems that there's a fair amount on confusion on the topic of Legacy Scaling - the worst is probably was that they had IL higher and had scaled and other people with lower IL are on their case in terms of higher damage they gain (or the opportunity to gain) and other similar affairs.
Well - in order to understand these changes better there must be an insight into what they aim to produce: Legacy Play in Older Campaigns that are As Good As They Were When The Campaign Was At It's Peak (Or: INTENDING TO MAKE THE CAMPAIGNS AS INTERESTING AS THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHEN THEY WERE FIRST RELEASED).
Yeah - that is mostly what the scaling was about: For instance if you were to get into a Malabog run (peaking at 24K) your damage would be scaled back (and HP) - this is so that you can play the game in it's actual settings ---- it's requirements and it's representation: It's like they're making a virtual computer, one that runs a legacy system, and it isn't simulated to be faster but as it was during the time it was made - with it's actual hardware running at that speed - the speed it had when it was first released - the Peak Playability - as in the Infernal Citadel in today's game.
See as the game progresses it introduces new gear, new ILs and new Levels (especially true in Malabog - L70 I think it was) - these new items would increase the ease in which the dungeon was run - making it similar to an upgrade to a better CPU - as time went on these dungeons became lower level campaigns, or legacy campaigns. In the end, they turned into a cake walk.
With the changes introduced, these places are now back to their prime difficulty - and having just run Malabog a short while ago - I really felt it was as if I was in fact doing a run in the Infernal Citadel - the number of times I died was a record! I usually do Malabog like a breeze - popping in and out of range and melee with my Ranger, or tanking a power DPS run with my fighter or paladin. And now - I am getting the full cognitive experience of running the ol' Hell Pit as it was when it was first released! And my god is the IC a more playable place - LoL!
So in a sense it's bad - but it fits with the legacy design concepts that the devs are working at - maybe it hasn't been fine tuned right? Or maybe it's better then perfect - I couldn't tell you as I wasn't around when Malabog first came out. Still I'd love to see some damage reduction! I can be crit by a Powrie? One Shot Crit?!! LoL! (All my stats above 24K - scouts honor)
So it may seem to some people like the concept is a rip off - they paid for the gear and now it's not reaching that sweat 50K IL place in the sky - but think about this: Isn't all content bound to run out? Hasn't Malabog been around so long it ran out long before the sunrise was creeping over the horizon? Well all economies are subject to deterioration in the end - and economy is a consumption of the duration and provision: In NW the economy is a time gate - in so much of time you will need to replenish supplies - they run out and deteriorate as time goes on - it's like buying a new shirt every now and then (Hopefully your favorite soccer club's) - and in this case Malabog seems to be given a lease! But the catch is it is a controlled playability that limits your existing action to a limited scale - thus eliminating the excess play that you may have acquired. So what - LoL - it's an ol' hell pit anyways! And the new one's about to find itself out in the open in a few short weeks! I'll take my one shot in that place instead - (where the IL is real for me) - LoL!
It's not technically a waste of your stats - It's really the dungeon from before when your stats increased and without accounting for them in their current range, but in it's own capped reality - this means that it doesn't have a timeline outside it's legacy existence - it's cap is the peak projection of its content when it was first released - and not current content projection in the current timeline - they're two different timelines now.
But anyway the point is if someone else even with lower IL is getting it on in a scaled legacy area, don't be freaked out! It's in the sprit of the game that we merry adventurers get together and hit it off in a crazy adventure of freaky proportions in a group of battle crazy madmen! (which all the better if they cap out anyway! - and furthermore the content is reworked and this is the IL of an age long forgotten!) So Content now is Legacy and has a place in NW that is unique to it's own design when it first peaked in some misty dawn sometime ago. And that just means it's well preserved like some Museum presentation - LoL!
And so I just wanted to add my Two Cents on content creation and management - I'm sure it's all good in the larger scheme of things.
However on a side note: I really think that there still are some bugs to address like the excessive damage I'm experiencing throughout the game!! IDK if it's crit avoidance or awareness or the damage multiplier?!! Because I was capped out in Malabog!!! And the Powrie One Shot Me! LoL!
OK So I was hanging around, seems that there's a fair amount on confusion on the topic of Legacy Scaling - the worst is probably was that they had IL higher and had scaled and other people with lower IL are on their case in terms of higher damage they gain (or the opportunity to gain) and other similar affairs.
Well - in order to understand these changes better there must be an insight into what they aim to produce: Legacy Play in Older Campaigns that are As Good As They Were When The Campaign Was At It's Peak (Or: INTENDING TO MAKE THE CAMPAIGNS AS INTERESTING AS THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHEN THEY WERE FIRST RELEASED).
Yeah - that is mostly what the scaling was about: For instance if you were to get into a Malabog run (peaking at 24K) your damage would be scaled back (and HP) - this is so that you can play the game in it's actual settings ---- it's requirements and it's representation: It's like they're making a virtual computer, one that runs a legacy system, and it isn't simulated to be faster but as it was during the time it was made - with it's actual hardware running at that speed - the speed it had when it was first released - the Peak Playability - as in the Infernal Citadel in today's game.
See as the game progresses it introduces new gear, new ILs and new Levels (especially true in Malabog - L70 I think it was) - these new items would increase the ease in which the dungeon was run - making it similar to an upgrade to a better CPU - as time went on these dungeons became lower level campaigns, or legacy campaigns. In the end, they turned into a cake walk.
With the changes introduced, these places are now back to their prime difficulty - and having just run Malabog a short while ago - I really felt it was as if I was in fact doing a run in the Infernal Citadel - the number of times I died was a record! I usually do Malabog like a breeze - popping in and out of range and melee with my Ranger, or tanking a power DPS run with my fighter or paladin. And now - I am getting the full cognitive experience of running the ol' Hell Pit as it was when it was first released! And my god is the IC a more playable place - LoL!
So in a sense it's bad - but it fits with the legacy design concepts that the devs are working at - maybe it hasn't been fine tuned right? Or maybe it's better then perfect - I couldn't tell you as I wasn't around when Malabog first came out. Still I'd love to see some damage reduction! I can be crit by a Powrie? One Shot Crit?!! LoL! (All my stats above 24K - scouts honor)
So it may seem to some people like the concept is a rip off - they paid for the gear and now it's not reaching that sweat 50K IL place in the sky - but think about this: Isn't all content bound to run out? Hasn't Malabog been around so long it ran out long before the sunrise was creeping over the horizon? Well all economies are subject to deterioration in the end - and economy is a consumption of the duration and provision: In NW the economy is a time gate - in so much of time you will need to replenish supplies - they run out and deteriorate as time goes on - it's like buying a new shirt every now and then (Hopefully your favorite soccer club's) - and in this case Malabog seems to be given a lease! But the catch is it is a controlled playability that limits your existing action to a limited scale - thus eliminating the excess play that you may have acquired. So what - LoL - it's an ol' hell pit anyways! And the new one's about to find itself out in the open in a few short weeks! I'll take my one shot in that place instead - (where the IL is real for me) - LoL!
It's not technically a waste of your stats - It's really the dungeon from before when your stats increased and without accounting for them in their current range, but in it's own capped reality - this means that it doesn't have a timeline outside it's legacy existence - it's cap is the peak projection of its content when it was first released - and not current content projection in the current timeline - they're two different timelines now.
But anyway the point is if someone else even with lower IL is getting it on in a scaled legacy area, don't be freaked out! It's in the sprit of the game that we merry adventurers get together and hit it off in a crazy adventure of freaky proportions in a group of battle crazy madmen! (which all the better if they cap out anyway! - and furthermore the content is reworked and this is the IL of an age long forgotten!) So Content now is Legacy and has a place in NW that is unique to it's own design when it first peaked in some misty dawn sometime ago. And that just means it's well preserved like some Museum presentation - LoL!
And so I just wanted to add my Two Cents on content creation and management - I'm sure it's all good in the larger scheme of things.
However on a side note: I really think that there still are some bugs to address like the excessive damage I'm experiencing throughout the game!! IDK if it's crit avoidance or awareness or the damage multiplier?!! Because I was capped out in Malabog!!! And the Powrie One Shot Me! LoL!
Post edited by oktlryk#2717 on
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▂▃▄▅▆▇█▓▒░ Drac ░▒▓█▇▆▅▄▃▂
There is supposed to be an image here, but the hamsters took it.
<div align="center">AKA Draconis of Luskan</div>
Take a backseat boy. Cause now I'm driving. ~ Give it up - Elizabeth Gilies ft. Ariana Grande
RIP Foundry: On that day, when the sky fell away, our world came to an end. ~Lifelight
I levelled characters up through Blacklake etc before I had any understanding of how stats & gear affected ability (no enchantments, replacing starter gear with whatever greens dropped on the floor etc) and progress was tricky but definitely doable so long as I didn't over-aggro.
When Sharandar came out, could I get 1-shot by a Powrie? No. My undergeared & badly played characters could handle the content so long as I didn't get myself surrounded by 3 groups by bad timing or positioning.
So is the game now like it was originally? No.
What was most enjoyable was levelling/gearing up so the difficult content became easy - I could see the progress I was making and when content became too easy, there was always a new and more challenging area to move on to. This auto-scaling completely removes that aspect of the game - seeing yourself do better.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I was a happy little player - having fun, also giving money! Just minding my fun with dungeons and dragons!
And this update is a big rip off, because I main and play fully with a tank /gf/, a healer /dc/ and a dps /gwf/ - played all content up until ZCmaster - didn't have all end-gear to get in there. This was possible with 3x r15 bondings, which I could switch between the chars /note that I had good enchants on every char/. Now they remove bondings and suddenly I need 3x companion bolsters
I will enter from time to time, Ill do a lomm or a ME /haha/, but no point in general progression... since the only progression now is in the companion/mount bolster
Of course, that one had a decent progression where it was impossible to grind through levels. Not the ridiculous sprint to 80 that we see in NW nowadays. I also looked at their numbers and they have many more players than we do over here.
I want NW to be successful. It is a beautiful environment and I really like the feel of the controls. I think that instead of letting the game become what it needs to be, it has been forced into a box the has taken away many of the things that many player started for. I will not be leaving the game, but I do see myself taking more and longer breaks.
It doesn't matter what Cryptic intended. In fact, it's been pretty clear for about 5-6 mods now that what Cryptic "intends" is that if you change a whole ton of things at once, people are going to have to spend a lot of AD and Zen to adjust to the new situation, and spending AD and Zen is what quarterly metrics are all about.
The average MMO player plays a game like Neverwinter exactly for the sense of progression, for the feeling of increasing skill and power and ability and resources. It's basically in the genetic code of D&D. You can talk the theory of "oh man these dungeons at peak playability!" (and Cryptic probably does as well), but it makes no rational sense whatsoever that putting on lower level and less powerful gear would make you better at running a dungeon than higher level gear.
You also need to play more dungeons with more teams. I've got an alt in a low level, developing guild. Some players were complaining they couldn't even do Cloak Tower anymore. One of the guildies and I put together a team, 3 lower levels ranging from level 14 to 30, one level 50, and me, at max level but on an alt with low gear (18k IL).
Every trash mob in Cloak Tower took 30-40 seconds of pounding on by the whole group. Keep in mind this is 5 adventurers, with companions, against 3 orcs of various sizes. The standard boss fights were about okay, although a little long. However fighting Vansi the end boss, was wipe after wipe. The group simply could not handle the adds, and could barely dent Vansi. We gave up after 15 minutes and 4 wipes.
So put together another team, lower levels this time (4 level 10-25's) and my same max level 18K IL char - same result.
This is on the first dungeon and the first boss that players are going to encounter. Now tell me again how that's "experiencing the dungeon at peak levels of 'interesting'".
Anyway I did mention the problems of taking on too much damage, I didn't say it was great all in all - there's somethings yet to be dealt with a more balanced perspective - taking on damage like that is quite unbelievable - LoL - and the other thing is in fact the higher HP particularly the boss HP - it is pretty much a very grinding ordeal - but I have noted that in a group of like peak performers it can be faster. But at the same time, they're not spared the insane damage either! LoL - a lot have taken on unbelievable damage! I guess if they don't change it or balance it out it's gonna be something we have to get used to.
And maybe this is what I figured out that could be most interesting with regards to your position on gear and lower level less powerful gear: They may not work correctly - caps work on the stats - like Malabog is 24K so all stats cap at 24K - however, if you use gear that does not reach that level, it won't cap - I'm using Fiend Forged gear on a Paladin who's got an IL of around 37K and it's managed to cap off all stats - but not in LOMM, where there's some stats still around 27K and below 30K - my ranger has managed to cap most 30K stats - but what I was going to say is the lower powered armor / gear need not really be considered unless you can touch the cap with it - it's not necessary that scaling and gear work well in that sense - older gear etc - scaling works on stat caps - and most pre infernal gear may not be able to get there unless you got piles of R15s.
Yeah your closing is in fact something I pondered on too - but I thought maybe it's just the initial stages of the change - I bet they fix the mechanics. Thanks for your reply!
Scaling was always a bad idea.
They've never made it work well and this is the worst screwup yet.
We don't want to struggle with old campaign areas or old dungeons. If we waste a spare hour in the Sea of Moving Ice so that we can actually use the three Stormvald chests because they don't just open automatically, it should be easy because it's just busywork.
There's no good reason for making LOMM unplayable for most of the players who queue in.
There's no good reason for making content so hard that PUG queue groups can't finish it.
I could go on.
But the point is, this change was a cash grab to make players want the next bunch of power creep.
It was a bad idea, badly executed.
We're used to this by now.
I just totally, utterly, completely disagreee with it - and the design philosophy that lead to the current situation.
The latter is always missing
Urlord
Second Point: Even if you think, as a dev, that Scaling can work and people will really like it once you 'get it right', you need to implement the improved rewards system at the same time. And the improved rewards that have been teased so far--are far from improved rewards.
And to that end, I noticed Harvester is scaled to 35k IL. I was 33k when it started, but playing with people both above and below, it works pretty well and we've yet to fail even the optional fight. Better if there's more above the 35k mark, slightly slower if too far below, or just poorly played. Although the combat in there is still a bit slower than before, it's working.
As an example, before combat changes, my healer cleric was so bored in PUGs that she slotted damage encounters and topped Paingiver a few times. After changes, she's at bottom, with tank usually right above. That feels a bit better.
It really deserves further development - rewards are a key drive to playing the game - a key factor to log in and delve and do Qs and work on further progress. It's an area that recently did get a facelift - tokens and other miscellaneous items began to appear as rewards - usually rerolling got you something useful like that. However the drop rate of real premium drops is as low as it had been - companions still low, mounts as well - In fact I got a Duhr recently in LoL, after delver's week - blue one - I was thrilled. But I gotta say I have had the luxury of getting premium legendary mounts, I got an AxeBeak - this was really a welcome surprise! Totally unexpected and really awesome!
The thing is, I was delving like 5 - 10 times a day and in a week and in delver week at that I should have got something really premium but nothing - maybe the true random loot should be augmented with a tracking type table modification - like in some games. True random can be impossible given the way true random can be coded and implemented. There are probabilities that occur in large sampling that are a subset of outcomes that are finite and determine the distribution and in these cases however improbably, the same subset of 'non-grata' can recur infinitely or can produce indeterminate outcomes.
A tracking type augmented random could narrow down the sampling and include excellent 'proc' drops or determinate outcomes like epic companions/mounts legendary mounts and so on - and could be implemented like after 10 runs include a determinate outcome that would include a sampling of these items (subject to reroll etc.) and if after 5 runs with incredible performance (and other types of rationalities) these items too or you could use bundling and state that these packs are to be enabled in the sampling and so on. (Of course you'll know how the rational would work better - LoL!)
These modifications could really drive the game forward from the sheer awesomeness of getting a great drop during a run!
We should have had proper loot table with this system when it launched if you did , most of community wouldn't be angry because there is reward for playing the game content
But it should never be the case that better gear does *nothing* to make you stronger, or worse, as it feels in some areas as currently tunes, makes you struggle more than folks of lower level or lower TIL. You should never put on stronger gear and find that it makes you weaker. That totally goes against the spirit of D&D.
So maybe it's not fun or challenging for a group of high level players burning a lower level boss in three seconds. But it shouldn't result in wipes, either, usually death by a couple dozen adds applying insane combat advantage. I will use Cloak Tower as an example -- one that is the lowest level in theory, but has become one of the hardest legacy dungeons to finish. It should not be as hard -- or take as long -- for five level 80s to finish as five level 30s. Really, it shouldn't even be close. You could apply some diminishing returns to better gear and that would still be the case. But a group with some 80s in it, with some TILs of 25K and up, should not be wiping Cloak Tower. And given the low level rewards, it shouldn't take them half an hour or more, either.
So yes, progression. As you gain levels, XP and better gear, you should *always* be stronger than you were before, no matter where you adventure. Period. Even if the gain is less than linear, it should be greater than zero.