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can we make pvp more skill based by removing/reducing the unavoidable mechanisms
xvimn134
Member Posts: 132 Arc User
Currently I have no insterest in competetive pvp but just to farm rewards, and I believe most of other players would do the same since there is no competition in solo queue nowadays. Part of the reason/maybe one of the most important reasons is something I mentioned 3+ times before in the forum: the unavoidable mechanisms especially all stun power/dot damage which ignore dodge (hr/tr/cw/dc). Because of this, everyone will be forced to take big damage no matter how well you play, so everyone has to build tanky by stacking defense or deflect+hp; and even worse they bring the one-shot mount power to pvp like toad/celestial wing which is impossible/extremely hard to dodge.
These kinds of unavoidable mechanism like undodgable stun/dot damage is really bad for skill based pvp, just like some mount power. The reason is no matter how well you time other's stun/dot power, they will still stun and deal most of the following damage on you, unless you hide behind pillar, or run away or hide with stealth which are not skill based. pvp should let prediction/timing play more role so the fight will be more consistent. I still remember back before mod 12 a well-played TR that is with all rank 8 can stand on the node for 5 minutes against a maxed player with all rank 12 simply because he can time his rotation with dodge perfectly; However now, because people know they can not avoid most of enemy's damage, what they do is just reply on maxed stats or hide/turtle when 1v1, and once the fight started, you either kill others if you stun first or killed by others if they stun first within 5 seconds. Everyone just try to max their stats and try to finish people within one rotation without much stategic interaction except hiding/runnning away. There is really very limited role that dodge can play in a fight, especially against class that have a lot of stun powers or oneshot class. Another extreme example is mount power, if it is hard/impossible to avoid they should have minimum effect, so most mount power needs to be nerfed too.
I still have hope that devs will bring old school pvp back, where a good fight rely much on perfect timing, instead of maxed stats and play in an embarrasing way. Hope they can fix the stun power/dot damage together with the mount power inside pvp to bring more skill-based fight back to pvp.
These kinds of unavoidable mechanism like undodgable stun/dot damage is really bad for skill based pvp, just like some mount power. The reason is no matter how well you time other's stun/dot power, they will still stun and deal most of the following damage on you, unless you hide behind pillar, or run away or hide with stealth which are not skill based. pvp should let prediction/timing play more role so the fight will be more consistent. I still remember back before mod 12 a well-played TR that is with all rank 8 can stand on the node for 5 minutes against a maxed player with all rank 12 simply because he can time his rotation with dodge perfectly; However now, because people know they can not avoid most of enemy's damage, what they do is just reply on maxed stats or hide/turtle when 1v1, and once the fight started, you either kill others if you stun first or killed by others if they stun first within 5 seconds. Everyone just try to max their stats and try to finish people within one rotation without much stategic interaction except hiding/runnning away. There is really very limited role that dodge can play in a fight, especially against class that have a lot of stun powers or oneshot class. Another extreme example is mount power, if it is hard/impossible to avoid they should have minimum effect, so most mount power needs to be nerfed too.
I still have hope that devs will bring old school pvp back, where a good fight rely much on perfect timing, instead of maxed stats and play in an embarrasing way. Hope they can fix the stun power/dot damage together with the mount power inside pvp to bring more skill-based fight back to pvp.
Post edited by xvimn134 on
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Comments
Let me start off by saying that I agree in that there should be no unavoidable damage in PvP whatsoever. I find it weird however that you apparently choose this issue as the one that is causing the most problems. There is much much more that goes into what could be considered skill in PvP -- and there are more important things that reduce the skill ceiling in PvP right now.
First, there is TTK. As it stands, at it has been the same for a while now, TTK is in both of the extremes, while the ideal state is it being around the middle. Players either one rotate or even one shot others (all properly built DPS classes except for possibly CW and perhaps HR but that's a balance issue), or they never die (all "safely" built classes, all healers).
Plays without a counterplay. This goes hand in hand with the previous issue and usually leads to a very low TTK. Some classes and items, most notably TR, but also GF, GWF and to a lesser extent HR, can make such a play that there is no couterplay for the enemy. In the case of TR it is one or two click kills at range from stealth, in case of GWF and GF it is undodgeable CC/extremely high base magnitudes, in the case of HR it is a large amount of CC. Obviously any class using the overpowered damage mounts, including healers with no offensive stats, falls in this category as well.
Builds. Build depth and diversity have been going down over time, while power creep has been going up. Some players have learned to depend on broken items. Not much else to add here.
The game and its combat in general. In recent years, the game has been moving towards simplicity, starting with M16 and now with the combat rework. Classes' powers are simpler, items are simpler, making builds is simpler, targeting is simpler. Movement, animations, the combat flow just feels very basic compared to pre M16.
There are of course many other issues, which, as opposed to those above, are not directly the fault of the developer, such as kicking, griefing, win trading, rewards farming etc. A lot of this is obviously not limited only to PvP, so when a new player comes over to try some matches, they usually do not perform well -- PvE is even simpler in its mechanics and doesn't push the players much. This wasn't always the case.
Because of all of those and other issues, most good players left, premades are gone, and current PvP players don't have anyone to learn from, so their skill never grows. They just stick to what they see others do, which at the moment comes mostly down to pressing a mount button. Even those that have the skill, or the potential, don't really use it much -- nothing pressures them into doing so. With the right class and a few broken items, you can beat anybody, and due to the game being so simple, your opponents can't outplay you too much, so why improve.
So ultimately yes, unavoidable damage or CC is a problem, but it is one of many and in my opinion, a fairly low priority one. It does lower the skill ceiling by some amount, but I wouldn't get my hopes up that changes will be made to make the game more skill dependent, if the recent modules and design choices are any indication. After all, how do we know players want the game to require more skill? With the way most play I doubt it, that way of thinking is gone, as are premades and most good players.
Every class have counter play to any other class, for cw/hr/tr/dc its dodge, but since the stun/dot damage ignores dodge the fight usually end up very fast and it force people to build tanky (high deflect+hp) For GF/OP they can mitigate it with shield, however they have to build really tanky cuz they cant dodge big attack. sw/barb is the only class that is able to dodge anything with good timing, and we have seen skilled players continues dodge most of the attack with their shift.
TR is fairly esay to counter btw. For WK u can hear the sound when they do shadowstrike (their only cc power while in stealth). assasine have very short duration of stealth, if turtle a little bit or dodge their daze strike or smoke bomb (which is very easy) then they can be one rotated. The only problem is the mount which needs to be nerfed, just like the stun/dot which makes the fight not consistent.
There are many other unavoidable mechanisms. For example, the daily hateful knives from TR, when TR stealth and coming to you from far it is imposssible to dodge the daily. From my understanding, any mechanisms that are hard or unable to dodge should have minimum effect, so it will give prediction more role to play and make the fight more consisnt for skilled players.
TR crit from stealth (100k lul) is another thing you can't do anything about. If you want to build to fight especially squishy classes, you can't go high crit.av.+deflect, since TRs don't need to care about crit.av. There is no other class mechanic that has as much utility as stealth (it does three things: stealth, you get CA AND 100k crit, it's like we're being trolled). To fight a TR is to hide until stealth runs out or to perfectly dodge everything he throws at you and as you said, mounts and hateful knives are hard-/undodgable.
I don't get why it's always the TR getting the juicy stuff. Why doesn't HR get 100k crit for 5s when he switches stances? DC after prefect balance? CW after activating his Tab encounter? On top, TRs can use the extra 100k stats offensively by putting every bit an other class has to use for crit into CA. Just WTF, seriously.
The Devs need to realise that we need separate balance for PvE and PvP. They made every class so that they have roughly the same DPS capabilities. In PvE utility of powers like CC/CC-break/self-healing has no value. And if DPS is roughly the same for all classes, the amount of utility your class has on your powers/mechanics ON TOP of dealing damage decides how easy you have it in PvP.
If your power has CC it shouldn't hit as hard. If you heal yourself with a power, you shouldn't deal a lot of dmg with it (I'd even consider i.e. bloodletter to heal twice the dmg it deals and halven the dmg or smth along those lines). Point is: if your power is doing anything else than dealing dmg, there should be a downside to it.
And make yes, make unavoidable stuff avoidable.