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Bugged Class/Path abusing PVP rewards System: Example how to earn Multi-Millions of AD from reward

fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
edited December 2020 in Player Feedback (PC)
This is a critical issue/bug

Check this handle in game for a perfect example - Moderator removed handle - no naming & shaming.

Please go and see how many new characters this guy has made in the last two seasons of PVP - All Whisperknife Rogues !

The reason for this the class and path is so broken a low lvl Whisperknife rogue can destroy a team on his own

So he has made/created approx 20+ new Whisperknife rogues and will get multi-millions of AD when he converts the hundreds if not thousands of trophies he will earn in 2 days at the end of the season as most of them are ranked good enough for massive rewards

This has completely destroyed pvp and the feedback from many players is that they wont pvp at all because of this class/path and the broken mounts which has been mentioned before.

Please can we have this fixed immediately cause this should not have been allowed for so long ?







Post edited by kreatyve on

Comments

  • xenocide#6577 xenocide Member Posts: 224 Arc User
    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?
  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    most of my TRs are top 25%, if you can get 25% with alt go ahead, spend your efforts/time and prove your skill
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    LOL ... i hope they just fix it so we can just all have some fun ... all we ask for is fair pvp ..and pvp players deserve fairness just as much as any other pve player .. im sure you know how much time and effort goes into making a competitive toon for pvp ..months years or those who spend real money which could be made absolute by broken/bugged stuff ..

  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    This is a critical issue/bug

    Check this handle in game for a perfect example - Moderator removed handle - no naming & shaming.

    Please go and see how many new characters this guy has made in the last two seasons of PVP - All Whisperknife Rogues !

    The reason for this the class and path is so broken a low lvl Whisperknife rogue can destroy a team on his own

    So he has made/created approx 20+ new Whisperknife rogues and will get multi-millions of AD when he converts the hundreds if not thousands of trophies he will earn in 2 days at the end of the season as most of them are ranked good enough for massive rewards

    This has completely destroyed pvp and the feedback from many players is that they wont pvp at all because of this class/path and the broken mounts which has been mentioned before.

    Please can we have this fixed immediately cause this should not have been allowed for so long ?

    While I can say this guy's WK rogue duplicating is annoying to put up with for me as well, this can and has been done for other strong classes. Its not exclusive to WK and some of the players doing this play multiple classes. PVP wasn't destroyed by WKs, but there is a severe issue with overpowered mounts that do compliment rogue's mechanics really well and this is a little bit more pronounced on WK.

    The army of weak characters players run in PVP is even more concerning than these partially geared ones for PVP's health. A lot of players now run weak characters through minimum number of games just to squeeze in more rewards. What we really need are players to have an incentive to play more games on their appropriately geared characters and probably cap how many characters on an account can earn PVP rewards.

    We know for sure there are upcoming adjustments to PVP rewards in response to some of the behavior people are shifting towards in PVP, but we don't know exactly what yet.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?

    The damage dealing mounts could easily have code added to them to reduce their dps in PVP, similar PVE/PVP separations are already present for cc durations on items. The devs will probably do something else though, last I heard, they want to do adjustments to power magnitudes in general, this might not be limited to mounts and sounds like its a systemwide change oriented more towards PVE than it is PVP. I didn't hear this from the original source though so my description might not be quite right.

    WK rogue currently doesn't get used much in PVE, its mechanics made it good for PVP. Its other use is as a slightly better mob clearing build than assassin, but because its not always practical to swap builds and the difference is small, PVE players don't bother with it.

    The rogue mechanics that give both paths CA and effectively 50% critical chance while stealthed are nonessential in PVE. But losing those mechanics would warrant them being replaced with something else for PVP and should also be useful in PVE.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?

    The damage dealing mounts could easily have code added to them to reduce their dps in PVP, similar PVE/PVP separations are already present for cc durations on items. The devs will probably do something else though, last I heard, they want to do adjustments to power magnitudes in general, this might not be limited to mounts and sounds like its a systemwide change oriented more towards PVE than it is PVP. I didn't hear this from the original source though so my description might not be quite right.

    WK rogue currently doesn't get used much in PVE, its mechanics made it good for PVP. Its other use is as a slightly better mob clearing build than assassin, but because its not always practical to swap builds and the difference is small, PVE players don't bother with it.

    The rogue mechanics that give both paths CA and effectively 50% critical chance while stealthed are nonessential in PVE. But losing those mechanics would warrant them being replaced with something else for PVP and should also be useful in PVE.

    WK is seriously overpowered in pvp and no class should be able top melt a 130k defense fighter paladin or cleric with sometimes less than one rotation and from stealth where the target doesn't have any chance to defend ..i mean fighter shield barely works in pvp as it is and one shadow strike from a wk rogue melts the fighter shield to 0 and non existent so theres no chance to defend after tht .....a full tank paladin as well has no chance cause it doesnt even have dps to counter so its completly broken , you play whisperknife so i can see why you will try defend it to some extent , im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework which is fair . Bottom line is WK needs a rework - if it wasnt as overpowered and basically bugged there wouldve been no need for a player to make almost 30 WK rogues this season

  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Best way to fix pvp is have 4 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed)

    Example:

    1) Bracket 1 : lets say max 20k item lvl

    2) Bracket 2 : lets say max 25k item lvl

    3) Bracket 3 : Lets say max 28k item lvl

    4) Unlimited Item lvl


    Each bracket will have leaderboard & rewards but higher rewards at higher lvls and vice versa.

    This will make pvp to be fun for all.

    everybody wins cause if you wannt higher rewards you have to upgrade your toon fopr next bracket/season

    I think Its fair and possible.

    io have discussed this with some of the largest Guild leaders and they agree this would be best way ...maybe not perfect but 100% improvement on current system

  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?

    The damage dealing mounts could easily have code added to them to reduce their dps in PVP, similar PVE/PVP separations are already present for cc durations on items. The devs will probably do something else though, last I heard, they want to do adjustments to power magnitudes in general, this might not be limited to mounts and sounds like its a systemwide change oriented more towards PVE than it is PVP. I didn't hear this from the original source though so my description might not be quite right.

    WK rogue currently doesn't get used much in PVE, its mechanics made it good for PVP. Its other use is as a slightly better mob clearing build than assassin, but because its not always practical to swap builds and the difference is small, PVE players don't bother with it.

    The rogue mechanics that give both paths CA and effectively 50% critical chance while stealthed are nonessential in PVE. But losing those mechanics would warrant them being replaced with something else for PVP and should also be useful in PVE.

    WK is seriously overpowered in pvp and no class should be able top melt a 130k defense fighter paladin or cleric with sometimes less than one rotation and from stealth where the target doesn't have any chance to defend ..i mean fighter shield barely works in pvp as it is and one shadow strike from a wk rogue melts the fighter shield to 0 and non existent so theres no chance to defend after tht .....a full tank paladin as well has no chance cause it doesnt even have dps to counter so its completly broken , you play whisperknife so i can see why you will try defend it to some extent , im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework which is fair . Bottom line is WK needs a rework - if it wasnt as overpowered and basically bugged there wouldve been no need for a player to make almost 30 WK rogues this season

    Have you actually seen a 130k defense build lately? The only example of this I've encountered recently is brutal's fighter. Which I only have a 30% chance to kill and that's assuming I optimized my stats to be able to kill that, but he is able to kill me. He doesn't only have defense he also added hp and tons of CC to it. It is basically the most cancerous way you could make a build.

    The meta itself is broken right now, so essentially you have many different questionable specs countering eachother instead of a healthier system. While I agree WK's mechanics/amount of dps they deal is questionable, it is wrong to single them out as the only OP example or say they are stronger than all the other classes. They objectively aren't outperforming several of the other classes. While you did say here you aren't asking for a nerf, you have also claimed the misinformation I'm combating here. WK most likely will get a rework or some small adjustments next module, but it sounds like its intended to make them more PVE friendly and might not be set in stone.

    Fighter as a class is very strong right now and I don't just mean the broken build, they simply aren't strong in 1vs1 vs rogue. But for winning matches you'd be hard pressed to find a better class at that. They are strong against all other classes too.

    Paladin in general is too weak in PVP, especially their tank spec.

    Cleric is one of the classes WK is best against.

    The classes WK has a hard time against are ranger, warlock, good wizards, specific assassin setups/strategies, well played aggressive fighters.

    As for brutal's WK army, he has a past history of tinkering with WK PVP rogue and part of reason he runs them is because it is cheeper to duplicate the same class than to do multiple, they share all the same items and the busted items also help make this very cost effective.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    Best way to fix pvp is have 4 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed)

    Example:

    1) Bracket 1 : lets say max 20k item lvl

    2) Bracket 2 : lets say max 25k item lvl

    3) Bracket 3 : Lets say max 28k item lvl

    4) Unlimited Item lvl


    Each bracket will have leaderboard & rewards but higher rewards at higher lvls and vice versa.

    This will make pvp to be fun for all.

    everybody wins cause if you wannt higher rewards you have to upgrade your toon fopr next bracket/season

    I think Its fair and possible.

    io have discussed this with some of the largest Guild leaders and they agree this would be best way ...maybe not perfect but 100% improvement on current system

    Again, I don't think its possible at this time for the que to keep popping with 4 different IL brackets. You are splitting the PVP population into 4 different groups under this idea. The idea is good but you need enough people for it.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User

    Best way to fix pvp is have 4 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed)

    Example:

    1) Bracket 1 : lets say max 20k item lvl

    2) Bracket 2 : lets say max 25k item lvl

    3) Bracket 3 : Lets say max 28k item lvl

    4) Unlimited Item lvl


    Each bracket will have leaderboard & rewards but higher rewards at higher lvls and vice versa.

    This will make pvp to be fun for all.

    everybody wins cause if you wannt higher rewards you have to upgrade your toon fopr next bracket/season

    I think Its fair and possible.

    io have discussed this with some of the largest Guild leaders and they agree this would be best way ...maybe not perfect but 100% improvement on current system

    Again, I don't think its possible at this time for the que to keep popping with 4 different IL brackets. You are splitting the PVP population into 4 different groups under this idea. The idea is good but you need enough people for it.
    Thanks TRGluesticks

    What i do suggest is a POC (Proof of Concept) to be done...Let the developers run a POC for a season in parallel with normal solo queue and see what the response is.. I mean theres a lot of players in the core pvp community base tht will play their alts at lower brackets and i believe we will see a massive increase in the amount of players tht will pvp if these lower brackets/queues
    are available as their toons will more competitive at these lower lvls ... i mean thts the reason so many dont even attempt pvp atm cause their toons are not geared enough to compete at the current & only one lvl (max lvl) and with only 1 x queue thts really being used currently.

    I think the only important part is tht the changes are communicated early and on as many platforms as possible so tht all the current players, old players that might have left and even possible new players can be informed and be aware of the changes tht will be implemented ...

    To be honest , I believe in the idea enough tht i am willing to invest effort , time and money in the POC and marketing strategy/campaign to make this work.

    I mean PVP has been on such a negative curve for so long because of imbalances bugs lack of attention etc , lets bring pvp back to a fair & fun option in the game cause its possible with not too much effort if done correctly .. like i said any improvement to current system will be welcomed imo as the current system is not really fair or tht much fun atm for alot of players because of only 1 queue being available.
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?

    The damage dealing mounts could easily have code added to them to reduce their dps in PVP, similar PVE/PVP separations are already present for cc durations on items. The devs will probably do something else though, last I heard, they want to do adjustments to power magnitudes in general, this might not be limited to mounts and sounds like its a systemwide change oriented more towards PVE than it is PVP. I didn't hear this from the original source though so my description might not be quite right.

    WK rogue currently doesn't get used much in PVE, its mechanics made it good for PVP. Its other use is as a slightly better mob clearing build than assassin, but because its not always practical to swap builds and the difference is small, PVE players don't bother with it.

    The rogue mechanics that give both paths CA and effectively 50% critical chance while stealthed are nonessential in PVE. But losing those mechanics would warrant them being replaced with something else for PVP and should also be useful in PVE.

    WK is seriously overpowered in pvp and no class should be able top melt a 130k defense fighter paladin or cleric with sometimes less than one rotation and from stealth where the target doesn't have any chance to defend ..i mean fighter shield barely works in pvp as it is and one shadow strike from a wk rogue melts the fighter shield to 0 and non existent so theres no chance to defend after tht .....a full tank paladin as well has no chance cause it doesnt even have dps to counter so its completly broken , you play whisperknife so i can see why you will try defend it to some extent , im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework which is fair . Bottom line is WK needs a rework - if it wasnt as overpowered and basically bugged there wouldve been no need for a player to make almost 30 WK rogues this season

    Have you actually seen a 130k defense build lately? The only example of this I've encountered recently is brutal's fighter. Which I only have a 30% chance to kill and that's assuming I optimized my stats to be able to kill that, but he is able to kill me. He doesn't only have defense he also added hp and tons of CC to it. It is basically the most cancerous way you could make a build.

    The meta itself is broken right now, so essentially you have many different questionable specs countering eachother instead of a healthier system. While I agree WK's mechanics/amount of dps they deal is questionable, it is wrong to single them out as the only OP example or say they are stronger than all the other classes. They objectively aren't outperforming several of the other classes. While you did say here you aren't asking for a nerf, you have also claimed the misinformation I'm combating here. WK most likely will get a rework or some small adjustments next module, but it sounds like its intended to make them more PVE friendly and might not be set in stone.

    Fighter as a class is very strong right now and I don't just mean the broken build, they simply aren't strong in 1vs1 vs rogue. But for winning matches you'd be hard pressed to find a better class at that. They are strong against all other classes too.

    Paladin in general is too weak in PVP, especially their tank spec.

    Cleric is one of the classes WK is best against.

    The classes WK has a hard time against are ranger, warlock, good wizards, specific assassin setups/strategies, well played aggressive fighters.

    As for brutal's WK army, he has a past history of tinkering with WK PVP rogue and part of reason he runs them is because it is cheeper to duplicate the same class than to do multiple, they share all the same items and the busted items also help make this very cost effective.
    I know Brutal and his Fighter setups well, the thing is he has build this fighter for one reason and he has confessed this , and tht is to counter the broken whisperknife rogues.

    The fact is he is a very good player and has a BIS fighter , any player tht doesnt play as good as him or doesnt have a BIS fighter built in a similar way will have no chance vs ur rogue ;)

    Whisperknife build is cost effective cause its broken and low lvl WK rogue can kill most strong and BIS tanks with little effort - Theres no argument here , the class/path needs a revisit and anyone tht has faced them in pvp will agree .. i play a wk as well , same as roniki & many others which has recently built one and also say its broken troll build and needs a rework

    Lets be honest , If you play one like urself there will obviously be some defense provided which you have done

    :p



  • wrongun72#1436 wrongun72 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    The individual only does it because of the multiple rewards he gets. Whilst not fixing the problem, limit accounts to 1 toon rewards per season to slow this "gaming" of the system
  • deadmano#4272 deadmano Member Posts: 44 Arc User

    The individual only does it because of the multiple rewards he gets. Whilst not fixing the problem, limit accounts to 1 toon rewards per season to slow this "gaming" of the system

    I'm with you on this and I hope it gets the traction it needs. Whilst rewards are a great way to incentivise character progression, having it so that minimal effort needs to be applied and character slots are the only limit is starting to tear down what PvP was meant to be, and no amount of match-making is going to fix that.

    Having 1 reward obtainable based on your highest-ranked character is definitely the way to go, it'll promote intense battles on those geared for it, whilst still allowing newcomers to get their feet wet and grab a reward or two per season that'll help strengthen their characters not just for future PvP matches, but PvE as well.

    And whilst limiting rewards to 1 character per account will help lessen the impact it currently has on the economy, care needs to be taken to not just limit, but also incentivise playing on a single character throughout the season, otherwise you may end up with people multi-accounting which already exists.

    A suggestion to the above could be a battle-pass type system, where additional rewards unlock based on amount of games played, number of wins, hours played, nodes captured, kills made, etc. The further your progress, the better the individual rewards.
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User

    The individual only does it because of the multiple rewards he gets. Whilst not fixing the problem, limit accounts to 1 toon rewards per season to slow this "gaming" of the system

    I'm with you on this and I hope it gets the traction it needs. Whilst rewards are a great way to incentivise character progression, having it so that minimal effort needs to be applied and character slots are the only limit is starting to tear down what PvP was meant to be, and no amount of match-making is going to fix that.

    Having 1 reward obtainable based on your highest-ranked character is definitely the way to go, it'll promote intense battles on those geared for it, whilst still allowing newcomers to get their feet wet and grab a reward or two per season that'll help strengthen their characters not just for future PvP matches, but PvE as well.

    And whilst limiting rewards to 1 character per account will help lessen the impact it currently has on the economy, care needs to be taken to not just limit, but also incentivize playing on a single character throughout the season, otherwise you may end up with people multi-accounting which already exists.

    A suggestion to the above could be a battle-pass type system, where additional rewards unlock based on amount of games played, number of wins, hours played, nodes captured, kills made, etc. The further your progress, the better the individual rewards.
    Deadmano , i have seen you in pvp and you have killed many a pug and it now sounds you want more rewards for the more pugs you kill ? ...uuuuuuhmmm No

    You suggestion & system is flawed.

    You want players to first spend money to earn rewards which wont matter cause they already spend money on the gear they would've earned from rewards - wrong way round ...cause weak toons will just not make it to the top unless you are ok with adding 50+ years to the progression lol

    This is not viable at all.
  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    How about you just make pvp a single account for everyone. Doesn't matter how many tools you use. All your stats and rankings from all toons are compiled to a single ranking for your account. Thus it cuts out the multi toon people.

    A person with 1 toon who plays 100 matches, 50 wins 50 losses, 100 kills and 100 deaths... gets the same kind of ranking as a player with 10 characters on their account with each one playing 10 games, 5 wins 5 losses, and 10 kills and 10 deaths per toon.

    Thus it makes no real difference in reward at the end of the season if only your overall account ranking matters and you only get 1 reward.

    I like this thought if for no other reason than it will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the pvp multi toon players who abuse the systems ranking to be in the top percent and have multiple toons in the upper rankings.
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How about you just make pvp a single account for everyone. Doesn't matter how many tools you use. All your stats and rankings from all toons are compiled to a single ranking for your account. Thus it cuts out the multi toon people.



    A person with 1 toon who plays 100 matches, 50 wins 50 losses, 100 kills and 100 deaths... gets the same kind of ranking as a player with 10 characters on their account with each one playing 10 games, 5 wins 5 losses, and 10 kills and 10 deaths per toon.



    Thus it makes no real difference in reward at the end of the season if only your overall account ranking matters and you only get 1 reward.



    I like this thought if for no other reason than it will HAMSTER off the pvp multi toon players who abuse the systems ranking to be in the top percent and have multiple toons in the upper rankings.

    So what you suggest is an average ranking on your account no matter how many toons you use ?

    uuuhm this might not be ideal cause you might like playing a class but tht class you only discovered ltr , how much fun it is etc and thus not as geared yet even though you want it to be ...

    i still believe the 4 or 5 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed) will be most fun & fair .. the rewards will be less at lower itm lvl


    1) less than 20K item lvl

    2) max 25k item lvl

    3) max 28k item lvl

    4) Above 28K (Unlimited)

    i would also suggest tht battle trophies can be shared (deposit/withdraw) in shared bank account like AD, Gold , Insignia powder etc in order to accumulate and spend them on possible rewards




  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    > @fuxion#7775 said:
    > So what you suggest is an average ranking on your account no matter how many toons you use ?
    >
    > uuuhm this might not be ideal cause you might like playing a class but tht class you only discovered ltr , how much fun it is etc and thus not as geared yet even though you want it to be ...
    >
    > i still believe the 4 or 5 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed) will be most fun & fair .. the rewards will be less at lower itm lvl
    >
    >
    > 1) less than 20K item lvl
    >
    > 2) max 25k item lvl
    >
    > 3) max 28k item lvl
    >
    > 4) Above 28K (Unlimited)
    >
    > i would also suggest tht battle trophies can be shared (deposit/withdraw) in shared bank account like AD, Gold , Insignia powder etc in order to accumulate and spend them on possible rewards

    Your idea does nothing but promote the continued abuse of the rewards system. All you are doing is giving each tool a person has the opportunity to earn rewards 4 times during a season. Quadrupling the amount of reward per character thus flooding an account with battle tokens. Even with "lesser" rewards at lower tiers you are providing a window for more total rewards for the player on an individual account.

    If you want a bigger reward just say so. No need to try and sneak it in.

    Personally I see nothing but abuse of new players and of the reward system as the game is now and with your suggestion. A single reward for each account that is account but is more than enough to deter people from using multiple toons to flood their account with unbound rewards. And if you really want to go farther to promote fair play between all players then force all players to have specific load outs no matter what level or gear they have equipped so any item level or gear ability advantages are completely wiped out for equal opportunity for all.

    But since that will cause people to rage it will never be done.

    BTW this is coming from someone who abhors pvp in neverwinter. I would in all honesty cheer to see it removed completely with how abusive and toxic its playerbase is. But I'm trying to provide a reasonable solution to rewards since pvp isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
  • jabberghast#1974 jabberghast Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    @trgluestickz said:

    >The meta itself is broken right now, so essentially you have many different questionable specs countering eachother instead of a healthier system. While I agree WK's mechanics/amount of dps they deal is questionable, it is wrong to single them out as the only OP example or say they are stronger than all the other classes. They objectively aren't outperforming several of the other classes. While you did say here you aren't asking for a nerf, you have also claimed the misinformation I'm combating here. WK most likely will get a rework or some small adjustments next module, but it sounds like its intended to make them more PVE friendly and might not be set in stone.


    I have to disagree. But I think what makes rogue (and WK especially) broken is the caped crit-chance from stealth. Combine that with getting CA from attacking out of stealth and you get a broken class. Mind that CA is hard to counter and caps out at 100%. There's nothing you can do against a rogue critting from stealth, making it basically almost impossible to counter. Rogues only need to get armpen and CA to a high value and get crit almost for free. It's the only class capable of that.

    I try to explain it further in detail here:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258605/

    Please let me know what you think about the suggestion at the end.
  • jabberghast#1974 jabberghast Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    off-topic: why does the block-quote tag not work for me in this thread?
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    How do you fix this for PvP without breaking it's over path?

    The damage dealing mounts could easily have code added to them to reduce their dps in PVP, similar PVE/PVP separations are already present for cc durations on items. The devs will probably do something else though, last I heard, they want to do adjustments to power magnitudes in general, this might not be limited to mounts and sounds like its a systemwide change oriented more towards PVE than it is PVP. I didn't hear this from the original source though so my description might not be quite right.

    WK rogue currently doesn't get used much in PVE, its mechanics made it good for PVP. Its other use is as a slightly better mob clearing build than assassin, but because its not always practical to swap builds and the difference is small, PVE players don't bother with it.

    The rogue mechanics that give both paths CA and effectively 50% critical chance while stealthed are nonessential in PVE. But losing those mechanics would warrant them being replaced with something else for PVP and should also be useful in PVE.

    WK is seriously overpowered in pvp and no class should be able top melt a 130k defense fighter paladin or cleric with sometimes less than one rotation and from stealth where the target doesn't have any chance to defend ..i mean fighter shield barely works in pvp as it is and one shadow strike from a wk rogue melts the fighter shield to 0 and non existent so theres no chance to defend after tht .....a full tank paladin as well has no chance cause it doesnt even have dps to counter so its completly broken , you play whisperknife so i can see why you will try defend it to some extent , im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework which is fair . Bottom line is WK needs a rework - if it wasnt as overpowered and basically bugged there wouldve been no need for a player to make almost 30 WK rogues this season

    Have you actually seen a 130k defense build lately? The only example of this I've encountered recently is brutal's fighter. Which I only have a 30% chance to kill and that's assuming I optimized my stats to be able to kill that, but he is able to kill me. He doesn't only have defense he also added hp and tons of CC to it. It is basically the most cancerous way you could make a build.

    The meta itself is broken right now, so essentially you have many different questionable specs countering eachother instead of a healthier system. While I agree WK's mechanics/amount of dps they deal is questionable, it is wrong to single them out as the only OP example or say they are stronger than all the other classes. They objectively aren't outperforming several of the other classes. While you did say here you aren't asking for a nerf, you have also claimed the misinformation I'm combating here. WK most likely will get a rework or some small adjustments next module, but it sounds like its intended to make them more PVE friendly and might not be set in stone.

    Fighter as a class is very strong right now and I don't just mean the broken build, they simply aren't strong in 1vs1 vs rogue. But for winning matches you'd be hard pressed to find a better class at that. They are strong against all other classes too.

    Paladin in general is too weak in PVP, especially their tank spec.

    Cleric is one of the classes WK is best against.

    The classes WK has a hard time against are ranger, warlock, good wizards, specific assassin setups/strategies, well played aggressive fighters.

    As for brutal's WK army, he has a past history of tinkering with WK PVP rogue and part of reason he runs them is because it is cheeper to duplicate the same class than to do multiple, they share all the same items and the busted items also help make this very cost effective.
    I know Brutal and his Fighter setups well, the thing is he has build this fighter for one reason and he has confessed this , and tht is to counter the broken whisperknife rogues.

    The fact is he is a very good player and has a BIS fighter , any player tht doesnt play as good as him or doesnt have a BIS fighter built in a similar way will have no chance vs ur rogue ;)

    Whisperknife build is cost effective cause its broken and low lvl WK rogue can kill most strong and BIS tanks with little effort - Theres no argument here , the class/path needs a revisit and anyone tht has faced them in pvp will agree .. i play a wk as well , same as roniki & many others which has recently built one and also say its broken troll build and needs a rework

    Lets be honest , If you play one like urself there will obviously be some defense provided which you have done

    :p



    Brutal sensationalized WK builds when they first got revived on PC and he seems to really want people to believe his fighter is weaker than it really is. Also, the fighter build he currently uses predates WK being revived on PC by several mods. He has made that same broken high defense high CC fighter many times in other modules. While its true it counters WK and that may be part of his motivation for running it now, this is how he builds his fighter regardless.

    also, his nearly immortal defense/cc fighter isn't the only way to build a strong fighter vs WK. Chieftain is also very effective vs my WK and Xar would be too if he was BIS. WK still technically has advantage in 1vs1s vs fighter but the way these 2 play and build can turn that on its head.

    also, what I said here is from a purely 1vs1 perspective. Fighter as I mentioned before is probably the best class at winning matches. Even the less good ones do quite well provided they are built decent.

    WK is among the specs that can be built with less gear and a low cost and still preform well, another example is a bugged variant of ranger and there are probably other classes that can do that. Any class can and has been used to farm rewards.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Fighters are only good at BIS - I have one myself believe me ...Fighters are the worst class at lower levels only with high defense BIS spec it will perform well in 1v1 or premades but at same itm lvl as WK rogues when not BIS Fighters/Paladins & Clerics have no chance atm vs WK rogue ... and also i have seen BIS fighters still get wrecked by 22k WK rogue over and over and over ..its not normal ..like i said theres a reason brutal made 30 wk rogues lol ..its the most broken class since mod12 with HR thorned roots we had ....Also Chieftain & Brutal has played Fighters or GFs since mod 5 ...so very experienced ..look at Uber chad he runs 115k defense and high HP and pretty well built Fighter and he is not a bad player and he has most deaths of any class of all on his fighter and i spoke to him 85% of his deaths is because of stealthed broken wk rogues ...only real good experienced players that can play a bis Fighter will have a chance vs your broken rogue or any pug tht figured out how the brutal rotation works ;)

    I play all classes so im not talking out of my thumb ... i play rogue too :) WK needs rework reason being no class should have the ability that a low lvl WK rogue has atm that will suprise one rotate and melt a BIS 115k defense paladin cleric or fighter like its butter cause 90% of the time these classes are fighting on node and never even see the wk rogue so has no chance to defend. Yes a BIS fighter in 1v1 have a small chance cause he knows what to expect but thats NOT PVP ..in a match wk rogues are ruining matches atm ..every little wk rogue pug think he is something now cause he is killing BIS classes like its going out of fashion
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User

    > @fuxion#7775 said:

    > So what you suggest is an average ranking on your account no matter how many toons you use ?

    >

    > uuuhm this might not be ideal cause you might like playing a class but tht class you only discovered ltr , how much fun it is etc and thus not as geared yet even though you want it to be ...

    >

    > i still believe the 4 or 5 brackets with max item lvl for each bracket which is enforced (no equip or unequip of gear tht will increase item lvl past the max allowed) will be most fun & fair .. the rewards will be less at lower itm lvl

    >

    >

    > 1) less than 20K item lvl

    >

    > 2) max 25k item lvl

    >

    > 3) max 28k item lvl

    >

    > 4) Above 28K (Unlimited)

    >

    > i would also suggest tht battle trophies can be shared (deposit/withdraw) in shared bank account like AD, Gold , Insignia powder etc in order to accumulate and spend them on possible rewards



    Your idea does nothing but promote the continued abuse of the rewards system. All you are doing is giving each tool a person has the opportunity to earn rewards 4 times during a season. Quadrupling the amount of reward per character thus flooding an account with battle tokens. Even with "lesser" rewards at lower tiers you are providing a window for more total rewards for the player on an individual account.



    If you want a bigger reward just say so. No need to try and sneak it in.



    Personally I see nothing but abuse of new players and of the reward system as the game is now and with your suggestion. A single reward for each account that is account but is more than enough to deter people from using multiple toons to flood their account with unbound rewards. And if you really want to go farther to promote fair play between all players then force all players to have specific load outs no matter what level or gear they have equipped so any item level or gear ability advantages are completely wiped out for equal opportunity for all.



    But since that will cause people to rage it will never be done.



    BTW this is coming from someone who abhors pvp in neverwinter. I would in all honesty cheer to see it removed completely with how abusive and toxic its playerbase is. But I'm trying to provide a reasonable solution to rewards since pvp isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

    if anyone wants to play a toon at lower lvls let them do so .. the rewards should be scaled accordingly.

    they can restrict a character on 1 bracket per season i have no problem with tht so i dont wanna sneak anything

    i am just trying to establish a more fun and playable fair pvp environment for the majority of players tht are not geared enough for the only pvp queue in the game

    the toxicity has also been brought about by the fact that theres only 1 queue and the normal pvp players hate matches being spoiled by 15k pugs who enter expecting the team to carry them to rewards

    and tbh .. i would take brackets without rewards if thts the only option ..i dont pvp for rewards ..i have pvp'ed since mod 6 when there was almost no rewards .. i just want good , fair & fun matches

  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    If you restrict a toon to a single bracket then what is the point of the brackets? Best rewards are still at the top and as they can earn rewards on all their toons none will drop to the lower brackets leaving them empty due to lack of reward.

    You might not play for the reward but others certainly do in order to maximize their ad intake. Thus a single account bound reward solves said issue as having multiple toons play from a single account will not provide more reward than playing just one.

    Take away the ability to abuse the reward system and you cut a lot of toxic players out as they with either quit abusing it or just quit altogether. Promotes a healthy environment for new players and reduces the amount of ad some of these whales are taking in then whining about not having anything to spend it on.
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    If you restrict a toon to a single bracket then what is the point of the brackets? Best rewards are still at the top and as they can earn rewards on all their toons none will drop to the lower brackets leaving them empty due to lack of reward.



    You might not play for the reward but others certainly do in order to maximize their ad intake. Thus a single account bound reward solves said issue as having multiple toons play from a single account will not provide more reward than playing just one.



    Take away the ability to abuse the reward system and you cut a lot of toxic players out as they with either quit abusing it or just quit altogether. Promotes a healthy environment for new players and reduces the amount of ad some of these whales are taking in then whining about not having anything to spend it on.

    i hear you - i play 6 classes in pvp and have only 1 of each class which are all geared to at least compete at the only lvl/queue available. so yeah highest ranked character can be an option for sure not closed to tht suggestion at all :)

    And yeah i dont play for rewards for me its just more fun when & if pvp is balanced like when you get lucky with such a match its just better than same pve content tht you have played before cause in pvp its like snooker/pool for example the balls are different after each break you dont know what to expect like you do with dungeons and bosses etc ..pve becomes too predictable and thts why i & many others pvp cause i get bored of pve and farming same content over and over ... even if a pvp match is a little unbalanced there is a slim chance if you play well and enemy doesnt you can still win ...so its more fun than any pve when the latest mod content have been completed etc

    PVE is awesome when the new mods launches for sure but to a point .. then its just a grind which kills it for me .

    PVP is only spoiled by broken gear , broken class mechanics , bad matchmaking and obviously the fact tht theres just one queue/lvl atm

    if you have a good pvp system and options that goes hand in hand with a good combat system and i mean neverwinter still has one of the best action combat systems available to man and many independent reviews confirms this on internet but the class imbalance and limited pvp options (1 queue , limited maps & battle types etc) has put off alotta potential players to commit to the game) so theres so much potential to expand the game & players base because of this ...

    imo PVP actually is the real end game ... when the mod content is done (quests/boons etc) fun pvp should be available right ? or what else ?

    PVP should be the ultimate test of skill, experience, build capabilities and abilities to adjust to diff situations .. thats why i have said before when it comes to class balancing start with pvp not pve .. cause the impact of class imbalance matter alot more in pvp than in pve and normally if you sort it out in pvp its usually ok in pve as well

    But atm its done the wrong way round.


    Post edited by fuxion#7775 on
  • mindy#9990 mindy Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I tried PvP a few weeks ago for the first time. We got wrecked. I tried solo Domination and the team I was put on got wrecked. The 2nd attempt at Solo Domination The team i was on kicked 2 people then kicked me. No message as to why. My experience with PvP was not pleasant. If you want more people to play PvP things have to change. I will not try it again. Several people in my guild also attempted it and got beat so bad they will not attempt PvP again either.
  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User

    I tried PvP a few weeks ago for the first time. We got wrecked. I tried solo Domination and the team I was put on got wrecked. The 2nd attempt at Solo Domination The team i was on kicked 2 people then kicked me. No message as to why. My experience with PvP was not pleasant. If you want more people to play PvP things have to change. I will not try it again. Several people in my guild also attempted it and got beat so bad they will not attempt PvP again either.

    Exactly we we are trying to get some changes implemented so its just more fun and fair for players ;)

    Thanks for the input

  • jabobohjaboboh Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 29 Arc User
    On the surface the TIL brackets make sense, but there are too many problems with the idea that would have to be resolved. Some of which have been covered by others like a lack of population base interested in PvP to support that many different types of queues.

    Something that hasn't really been brought up is the fact that people will exploit the brackets.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers when PvP had level-specific brackets. Back then bots were a huge thing in the lower brackets. But along with bots, you'd also have just plain a-holes who got their kicks out of pimping out low-level alts to just stomp the competition.

    It was always a joy to bring a level 15 alt into PvP and find some TR in game that had a perfect vorpal and just rolled over everyone. You'd see them end a match with 40 - 50 kills and they would drop out just before the end to avoid getting the bonus XP so they could stay at the lower levels longer.

    This would almost certainly happen with TIL brackets. People would take off less important items like pants and an artifact or two to sneak under the limit but still have max offensive stats to roll others just to get the rewards.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't think it could be implemented properly.

  • fuxion#7775 fuxion Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    jaboboh said:

    On the surface the TIL brackets make sense, but there are too many problems with the idea that would have to be resolved. Some of which have been covered by others like a lack of population base interested in PvP to support that many different types of queues.

    Something that hasn't really been brought up is the fact that people will exploit the brackets.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers when PvP had level-specific brackets. Back then bots were a huge thing in the lower brackets. But along with bots, you'd also have just plain a-holes who got their kicks out of pimping out low-level alts to just stomp the competition.

    It was always a joy to bring a level 15 alt into PvP and find some TR in game that had a perfect vorpal and just rolled over everyone. You'd see them end a match with 40 - 50 kills and they would drop out just before the end to avoid getting the bonus XP so they could stay at the lower levels longer.

    This would almost certainly happen with TIL brackets. People would take off less important items like pants and an artifact or two to sneak under the limit but still have max offensive stats to roll others just to get the rewards.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't think it could be implemented properly.

    The pvp community and players that pvp will increase if pvp is more balanced.

    with the item lvl restrictions applied correctly as you suggested it doesnt matter who plays what and when and how ..as long as you are within the item lvl (max restriction) then its fine ... so there no issue there (like u said and i agree the restrictions should just be applied correctly with no loopholes)
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