Mount powers ruined PvP. Never been worse. Please nerf.

tonyvincent · November 2020

Heya

PvP is not playable, nor fun at all, as people one shot with mount powers regardless of stats or anything for either the enemy nor the player doing it.

It has never been worse. Please nerf damaging mount powers to around 800 magnitude at least.

Example of mount powers that one shot and need to be nerfed: Toad, Tunnel Vision and all similar single target damage. Next maybe look at reducing AoE damage mounts to 500 magnitude.

onethree13 · November 2020

It's created primarily for PVE content. Therefore it would be fair to remove the mount's skill from PVP, but not nerf in any way. Nerf is generally a very bad word. I am against any nerfs, including those related to mounts.

tonyvincent · November 2020

Yes, no need to touch the PvE side. Would be nice to nerf them only for pvp but not remove them, because this brings options to builds.

revovlerjesus1 · November 2020

In 20 mods PvP has never EVER been as bad as it is right now. One game tonight it was 7 out of 10 ppl with TOAD. And all in the range from 800k -1.1 M Damage that you can NOT avoid (for most classes).

I dont normaly like nerfs but this HAMSTER got to go asap.

mushellka · November 2020

Simple and elegant solution: remove the mount powers from pvp.
No more crying.

sagakaiyume · November 2020

When you check things like encounters that stun, they have different durations depending on if its pve or pvp. They -could- do the same for things like mount powers if they wanted to; so if you ever get a reply its not possible...know its just laziness.

gweddry · November 2020

Totally agree, this is one of the worst things that have happened to PvP, completely gamebreaking. I would straight up consider it a bug if a power can easily do 150-200% of a player's max HP, regardless of the conditions. Based on logs, around 40% of my deaths in PvP are from toad and tunnel vision.

Yes, PvP is on a downward spiral as PvE powercreep with the recent so called horizontal progression (there is nothing horizontal about making insanely expensive mount upgrade system and adding much stronger gear behind multilayer RNG wall) starts breaking it again, but just two changes, just nerfing those two mounts would make a night and day difference. A tiny patch like this would greatly improve the PvP experience and at a very small effort show that the developers still care.

It's been mentioned recently on stream that to "balance" those mounts, all player magnitudes will get buffed. Just ask yourselves -- is it more efficient to nerf 2 mount powers (possibly for PvP only, so a bit more work), or buff ALL player power magnitudes? It's always better to buff or nerf a few outliers than to rebalance the entire system, and we certainly do not need higher magnitudes across the board to make PvE even more trivial, and PvP likely even more broken.

While this is completely the developers' fault, I appreciate these few people who refuse to use this sad gimmick in matches.

carterhimura · November 2020

So what? Feel free to one shot bosses in PvE too. Abuse these powers as much as possible to pull devs attention. No need to do anything just thrash critters with one skill. Cryptic style

xvimn134 · November 2020

Most mount power are overpowered when at highest bolster. Not just single target power, but also other power like self healing which heals almost 100% hp, AOE power with 1k magnitude+AOE+3 seconds control.

The problem mostly come from the bolster. While most of these power deals reasonable damage with let’s say 35% bolster (9 epic mount + 1 legendary mount), effect will be Increase to 3 times if have 10 mythic mount.

While people with limited budget in pvp deals 500k with toad, other people who is maxed can deal 1.5m damage. This creates big advantage for maxed players.

One simple way to deal with these to limit the type of mount power that can be used in pvp. For example only allow some harmless power like lion prone/small AOE damage/small single target power. It is easy to be executed and wouldn’t affect the PVE world, also the magnitude should be reduced so the bonus effect from higher bolster wouldn’t create major gap for unmaxed and maxed players

tonyvincent · November 2020

I do hope a fix is coming soon. There are people making alts with green/blue gear and slot these high magnitude dmg mounts to one shot in PvP to climb the ranks for PvP reward in the values of millions of AD. Additionally, people get the best of both worlds in the sense of going all tanky build with no dps at all though the overpowered mounts making up for it by still one shotting which removes skills, risk/reward and different builds, as they are all rendered irrelevant. The one shots also completely removes the actual gameplay-mechanics. There is no longer a point focusing on going from node to node, because it's all about activating broken mount powers first. The mounts also render healers useless because of one shots. Healers also get one shot.

tonyvincent · November 2020

For information, I am fully enchanted healer with 115k defense, and I get one shot by a mount power on a regular basis. PvP is ruined. Would be highly appreciated for a fix asap. All damage type mount powers, both AoE and single target, are way too overpowered.

Again, please reduce single target mount power magnitude to 800 and AoE mount power magnitude to 500. This is a minimum as these powers, even at this level, is higher than many of the classes' encounters and dailies. A mount power, which is very dependent on an expensive mount bolster, should not trump everything else.

Unknown · November 2020

This content has been removed.

trgluestickz · December 2020

fighter#4801 said:
Not only do ALL mount powers need to be REMOVED from pvp but something needs to be done about the rouges. All it takes is one Invisible super rogue to ruin a match. These TRs are invisible for %90 of any match. Which means they CAN NOT be targeted for 90% of any match and on top of that they have Super Dodge, Super fast recharge, and one or two shot everyone. Its time cryptic puts an end to this BS and stop letting rogues just do whatever they want.

We definitely don't have "super fast recharge". For WK especially, which is the spec most people who complain about rogue right now complain about, this couldn't be more wrong. WK stealth takes 12.5 seconds + additional time from taking damage to recharge. For assassin, they have a much more lenient stealth recharge time of 6 seconds. Their dodge is the same as for cleric and how often they can use it isn't anything special, though it is one of the longer ones compared to say, ranger for example.

Rogues running bait and switch can indeed stay in stealth a majority of the time, though probably not quite 90%. This doesn't apply if the rogue picks a different power but it is mostly correct.

WK does deal massive dps per rotation compared to everything else. This has a lot to do with the weird way they are designed, they have basically no sustain and a very long stealth recharge time. They are reliant on being in stealth or having been in stealth recently to even do damage. They deal damage a lot less consistently than assassin even and assassin isn't very consistent either. So they make up for it by dealing all of their dps in one big rotation.

It is questionable for WK to do this much dps, and overpowered dps mount powers are a major problem in general, but rogues objectively aren't doing better than ranger, dps DC, warlock, and fighter.

jabberghast · December 2020

trgluestickz said:

It is questionable for WK to do this much dps, and overpowered dps mount powers are a major problem in general, but rogues objectively aren't doing better than ranger, dps DC, warlock, and fighter.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. The reasons for rogues brokenness are however other things. I see the problem in rogues getting a capped crit-chance out of stealth which is huge BS imho.

To break it down:

A player has X amount of stats. He can choose to put themwherever he chooses. Whether you go 100k def/60k crit/40k armpen (I see this a lot with Fighters) or 90k crit/60k armpen/50k deflect (HR) or 80kcrit.av./60k deflect/60k crit (rare but I see this with some SWs) decides in what situation you're viable. A high def/low offensive stats-char won't be good against other tanky players (I call those engagements tickle-fights) and someone with high crit won't be good against someone with high crit.av.

Combat advantage:

Now rogues get to spec into combat advantage, since they get it from attacking out of stealth. Combat advantage can't be really countered, since awareness is a very rare stat and Combat advantage caps out at 100% bonus dmg. You can basically stack up to 90k CA without ever having to worry about not getting the full potential of those stats invested. As a comparison: Every single statpoint invested into armpen is wasted at the point, where your armpen is greater than the enemy's defense. So CA is a stat that rogues, and one-rotation WK rogues especially, can profit of, without any way to really counter it. SW gets that too with no pitty-no mercy (I think that's the name of the passive).

Critical Chance:

While these would be a class mechanics, which makes the class unique and interesting to play with or against, the crit thing is just huuuuge BS. A rogue can basically spec into 2 offensive stats (armpen and CA) and have a fully capped 3rd stat (crit) on top without any way to counter it and without them having to put a single statpoint there. Playing against someone with 80k+ crit.av. or someone with literally 0 crit.av. doesn't matter to a rogue. He will crit your HAMSTER 50% of the time he attacks out of stealth no matter what. So while it is possible for other classes (like HR) to play a glass-cannon-build (while most HRs can only play like that by abusing crushing roots but that's another story) and get 2 offensive stats to a reasonably high value, rogues get to use 3 offensive stats, where 1 cannot be countered, and the other can hardly be countered.

I'd suggest to either remove the crit-bonus from stealth alltogether, since it doesn't matter much to PvE rogues (they need to cap crit either way) or at least make it a fixed value in statpoints (idk, maybe 20-40k bonus crit if you attack from stealth), so rogues still have to invest into crit and make it possible to counter the mechanic.

So yes: Rogues do better than any other class. Brutal shows that on a daylie basis by consistently killing 28k characters with a 22k rogue.

Sorry for the wall of text but I want to get my point across.

trgluestickz · December 2020

knorke3 said:

trgluestickz said:

It is questionable for WK to do this much dps, and overpowered dps mount powers are a major problem in general, but rogues objectively aren't doing better than ranger, dps DC, warlock, and fighter.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. The reasons for rogues brokenness are however other things. I see the problem in rogues getting a capped crit-chance out of stealth which is huge BS imho.
To break it down:
A player has X amount of stats. He can choose to put themwherever he chooses. Whether you go 100k def/60k crit/40k armpen (I see this a lot with Fighters) or 90k crit/60k armpen/50k deflect (HR) or 80kcrit.av./60k deflect/60k crit (rare but I see this with some SWs) decides in what situation you're viable. A high def/low offensive stats-char won't be good against other tanky players (I call those engagements tickle-fights) and someone with high crit won't be good against someone with high crit.av.
Combat advantage:
Now rogues get to spec into combat advantage, since they get it from attacking out of stealth. Combat advantage can't be really countered, since awareness is a very rare stat and Combat advantage caps out at 100% bonus dmg. You can basically stack up to 90k CA without ever having to worry about not getting the full potential of those stats invested. As a comparison: Every single statpoint invested into armpen is wasted at the point, where your armpen is greater than the enemy's defense. So CA is a stat that rogues, and one-rotation WK rogues especially, can profit of, without any way to really counter it. SW gets that too with no pitty-no mercy (I think that's the name of the passive).
Critical Chance:
While these would be a class mechanics, which makes the class unique and interesting to play with or against, the crit thing is just huuuuge BS. A rogue can basically spec into 2 offensive stats (armpen and CA) and have a fully capped 3rd stat (crit) on top without any way to counter it and without them having to put a single statpoint there. Playing against someone with 80k+ crit.av. or someone with literally 0 crit.av. doesn't matter to a rogue. He will crit your HAMSTER 50% of the time he attacks out of stealth no matter what. So while it is possible for other classes (like HR) to play a glass-cannon-build (while most HRs can only play like that by abusing crushing roots but that's another story) and get 2 offensive stats to a reasonably high value, rogues get to use 3 offensive stats, where 1 cannot be countered, and the other can hardly be countered.

I'd suggest to either remove the crit-bonus from stealth alltogether, since it doesn't matter much to PvE rogues (they need to cap crit either way) or at least make it a fixed value in statpoints (idk, maybe 20-40k bonus crit if you attack from stealth), so rogues still have to invest into crit and make it possible to counter the mechanic.

So yes: Rogues do better than any other class. Brutal shows that on a daylie basis by consistently killing 28k characters with a 22k rogue.

Sorry for the wall of text but I want to get my point across.

You are looking at this primarily from a stats perspective, but this doesn't prove rogue is preforming better in PVP. Objectively, rogue doesn't preform better than other classes I mentioned when it comes to winning matches. Its about the same for these classes more or less. If you play vs other classes in 1vs1, WK does unusually well vs shielding classes, healers, and bad pugs. But has a harder time vs ranger, warlock, certain assassin setups/strategies, somewhat tanky wizards (in 1vs1 only), and aggressively played good fighters.

Rogue does have odd stat requirements and some extra leeway from not being required to stack crit. But will mention some classes seem to need less offense stats in general to still do great dps, fighter for example. Dps cleric also doesn't need much crit.

You actually can stack a lot of awareness btw, people just choose not to for practicality reasons. Why build to counter 1 class when you could use that space to counter a majority of classes?

I agree WK design and some rogue mechanics/stat reqs are odd and maybe it should be redesigned. But my point still stands that its objectively not preforming better than the other classes I mentioned.

If the devs took out the stealthed crit, they should look into replacing it with something else good that is more valuable in PVE. Rogue would probably fall significantly behind the other classes I mentioned in PVP if you took out the stealthed crit and/or CA mechanics and didn't replace them with some other damage boost. Rogue wouldn't drop to same lows as wizard or paladin but they probably would be doing worse than ranger, warlock, fighter, dps cleric.

As for your specific suggestion of making the stealthed crit a fixed amount reducible by crit avoid, it technically already is reducible by crit avoid. Stealth gives you 100k background critical strike, and crit avoid does chip into it if you stack it to extremes. The devs could reduce the crit strike amount it gives you I suppose since not many people going to fool with the 90k critical avoid it takes to even start reducing stealthed crit strike. But this probably not the best option.

Also, assassin despite having the same stealthed crit mechanic WK does, still stacks crit for most good versions, usually around 70k. It does need around 20k less allocated to crit than other classes that benefit more from having 80k or 90k.

also, brutal's undergeared rogue reward farming could have been done with the bugged version of ranger and probably several other classes.

jabberghast · December 2020

Let's take a look at the leaderboard. I don't know every single player in there when it comes to DC/SW (dps or heal). I'll only focus on top 10%.

16 rogues (5 are from the same account – enjoy your 25+whatever-you-got-from-all-the-other-chars-not-in-top-10 choice packs)
12 HR
11 Barb
11 Fighter
9 SW (no idea if heal or dps. I guess most are playing heal)
8 DC heal
7 CW
4 OP
5 DC DPS (though I know that at least 2 of those switch to DC heal if they are loosing or dying too much)

So objectively rogues do better than any other classes. Even if you single out the 4 bonus rogues from that one account, there would be still be 12 rogus left and out of the 4 characters that would be in top 10% after that 2 are rogues, so actually 14.

Regarding the capped crit:
Just imagine some class could ignore defense alltogether. This would be considered broken. It's the same with rogues and crit. You can stack armpen to counter defense-build, but crit.av.-builds don't work against you, leaving only deflect a.k.a. RNG defense as a possibility to defend against your class.
Furthermore rogues deal the highest dmg with TV/Toad/Wings, which is the same magnitude for every class. I was hit by 1,1-1,2 million TV and your TR hits with 400k with an AoE power, basically draining a whole team's HP. I searched for the reason why rogues deal the most dmg with TV/Toad/Wings consistently and I'm 100% certain it's bc they can ignore defense with armpen, get to ignore crit.av. for free and stack CA for bonus dmg. No other class can do that.

Look at my suggestion: While removing it would be the easy way and imo justified, giving it a fixed number of statpoints would force rogues to invest into crit to kill crit.av.-build as fast as well as defense-builds. A good compromise, don't you think?

trgluestickz · December 2020

knorke3 said:
Let's take a look at the leaderboard. I don't know every single player in there when it comes to DC/SW (dps or heal). I'll only focus on top 10%.

16 rogues (5 are from the same account – enjoy your 25+whatever-you-got-from-all-the-other-chars-not-in-top-10 choice packs)
12 HR
11 Barb
11 Fighter
9 SW (no idea if heal or dps. I guess most are playing heal)
8 DC heal
7 CW
4 OP
5 DC DPS (though I know that at least 2 of those switch to DC heal if they are loosing or dying too much)
So objectively rogues do better than any other classes. Even if you single out the 4 bonus rogues from that one account, there would be still be 12 rogus left and out of the 4 characters that would be in top 10% after that 2 are rogues, so actually 14.

Regarding the capped crit:
Just imagine some class could ignore defense alltogether. This would be considered broken. It's the same with rogues and crit. You can stack armpen to counter defense-build, but crit.av.-builds don't work against you, leaving only deflect a.k.a. RNG defense as a possibility to defend against your class.
Furthermore rogues deal the highest dmg with TV/Toad/Wings, which is the same magnitude for every class. I was hit by 1,1-1,2 million TV and your TR hits with 400k with an AoE power, basically draining a whole team's HP. I searched for the reason why rogues deal the most dmg with TV/Toad/Wings consistently and I'm 100% certain it's bc they can ignore defense with armpen, get to ignore crit.av. for free and stack CA for bonus dmg. No other class can do that.

Look at my suggestion: While removing it would be the easy way and imo justified, giving it a fixed number of statpoints would force rogues to invest into crit to kill crit.av.-build as fast as well as defense-builds. A good compromise, don't you think?

It appears you just counted how many people per class got into the top 10%, this is not a good argument. A lot of the time more people pick a class without it being just down to how strong it is. A lot of how many of a class exists comes down to past history too, not everyone changes classes to whatever the strongest thing is, many of the rogues you are seeing have been around a long time. If rogue was blatantly more OP than the other classes, I'd expect to see something more similar to how the leaderboard looked the last time wizard became OP a few mods ago. You'd see a lot of the same class concentrated near the very top of the page and the other classes scoring under that more.

As for the defense builds, it is questionable as I said before to have rogue work in this way, to counter all commonly stacked amounts of defense and crit avoid while stealthed. But will mention defense builds are pretty cancerous too, rogue being able to cut through them is a crude way to keep them from being quite so immortal. The mounts are just lol to the point of making things even worse. But will say I'd rather have people cutting through defense builds than the situation we used to have not that long ago.

jabberghast · December 2020

The sum of arguments prove you wrong:
16 rogues in top 10% while the next 3 classes have 11-12 in there of which you call one broken yourself is not normal
Rogues dealing 1-1,2 million or 400k AoE dmg with mounts, while other classes deal at most 700k with TV is broken
Rogues being able to be good against every viable strategy to be tanky simultaneously is broken
22k ilvl rogues killing 28k characters consistently is broken. (Show me the 22k ilvl fighter or [enter any class you consider good against rogues] that's able to kill your TR.)

btw. I only counted top 10%, since it is hard(er) to get in there, not like everyone playing pvp. As a general estimation this is good enough, though I think you're right that it is probably not 100% accurate. Something that maybe cancels this out a bit is that history of PvP and such applies to any other class as well. According to you there should be a lot of CW since it was broken a few mods ago. Additionally the few players being able to choose which class they play opt for rogue unless they find other classes more fun to play or don't want to support smth that feels broken.

Sorry, it appears I didn't read your first comment thoroughly enough. I didn't know crit from stealth is a fixed value already, thank you for pointing it out. I don't think removing it would impact PvE very much, in endgame content probably not at all. Noone in PvE struggles to cap crit for the content appropriate for his ilvl/gear. If that value would be reduced to 20-40k it would definetly be still good enough to help the 5% of rogues in PvE relying on this to cap crit. It would have a huge impact on PvP though, since suddenly you can play tanky against rogues without sacrificing any other stat to get defense high enough.

trgluestickz · December 2020

knorke3 said:
The sum of arguments prove you wrong:
16 rogues in top 10% while the next 3 classes have 11-12 in there of which you call one broken yourself is not normal
Rogues dealing 1-1,2 million or 400k AoE dmg with mounts, while other classes deal at most 700k with TV is broken
Rogues being able to be good against every viable strategy to be tanky simultaneously is broken
22k ilvl rogues killing 28k characters consistently is broken. (Show me the 22k ilvl fighter or [enter any class you consider good against rogues] that's able to kill your TR.)

btw. I only counted top 10%, since it is hard(er) to get in there, not like everyone playing pvp. As a general estimation this is good enough, though I think you're right that it is probably not 100% accurate. Something that maybe cancels this out a bit is that history of PvP and such applies to any other class as well. According to you there should be a lot of CW since it was broken a few mods ago. Additionally the few players being able to choose which class they play opt for rogue unless they find other classes more fun to play or don't want to support smth that feels broken.

Sorry, it appears I didn't read your first comment thoroughly enough. I didn't know crit from stealth is a fixed value already, thank you for pointing it out. I don't think removing it would impact PvE very much, in endgame content probably not at all. Noone in PvE struggles to cap crit for the content appropriate for his ilvl/gear. If that value would be reduced to 20-40k it would definetly be still good enough to help the 5% of rogues in PvE relying on this to cap crit. It would have a huge impact on PvP though, since suddenly you can play tanky against rogues without sacrificing any other stat to get defense high enough.

In the case of wizards, reason you aren't seeing as many is in part because they got nerfed really hard, enough to make them less fun to play than some of the stronger classes that are roughly tied with eachother. I tried to make a wizard, and ran into the same issues people were complaining about, where they never quite have a satisfactory amount of damage or survivability. Also another factor is just personal preferences, dps dcs are competitive but fewer people picked them for example.

The number of rogues in top 10% isn't drastically more than that of other classes, and its not abnormal, there usually are a lot of rogues each season and have been for a long time, several of them are people's long time mains.

A lot of lower geared pugs across other classes can kill my rogue, I have advantage from experience and gear but damage in PVP is high enough to die to bad pugs on the regular.

jabberghast · December 2020

At this point I don't think is leading anywhere, let's not mimic a broken record.

Unknown · December 2020

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leonidrex · December 2020

TR being overpowered and arguing to the death that they are not overpowered.
Name more iconic duo for neverwinter pvp? Some things never change I guess.

jabberghast · December 2020

Well rogues are and will always be a good class in PvP. Stealth alone is super useful in PvP. However, having useful and fun class mechanics and having unfair/broken advantages over other classes are two different things and whether or not a "feature" is one or the other is the root of these discussions.

Concerning this discussion, I'd like to see a class mechanic that is comparable to the 100k crit out of stealth. So far I didn't find anything that gives any class 100k stats for free.

But since mod20 will turn everything in it's head AGAIN, we won't see any other balance in PvP but the current one which makes this discussion obsolete.

xvimn134 · December 2020

if no mount power is allowed, maximized/top TR is just about same as other class, especially in high-quality premade games, however at lower item level TR has advantage because the free 100k crit from stealth for all TR.

TR/SW has advantage with mount power too because of the free CA.

tonyvincent · December 2020

Yes, TRs were much more on the line of other classes before the boosted mount powers were implemented.
The 100k crit for TR didn't mean much prior to these changes, but this and the free CA of a few classes, make mount powers unbalanced compared to classes who don't have these benefits.

Again, would like to see magnitudes of single target damage mount powers reduced to 1000 magnitude and AoE damage mount powers reduced to 500 magnitude.

Unknown · December 2020

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Unknown · December 2020

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tonyvincent · December 2020

The PvP season started again, and despite some excitement, it was met with a dreadful experience due to overpowered mount powers.

From the picture, you can see the damage of a Tunnel Vision, which is a single target damaging mount power, which one-shot me with 559140 dmg even though I have 115k defense and 480k HP on my healer. This happens often. Mount powers are way too strong. No power in the game should be able to one-shot except a few dailies like Shocking Execution and Ice Knife which has an animation and sound cue.

I do hope the developers can look into this. PvP mode is quite unplayable.

My character is maxed out.

gweddry · December 2020

This season it seems to have gotten worse, I'd say 75% of my deaths are from a one shot mount. More people have also noticed that toad is undodgeable so they use that - as if one shot wasn't good enough, you now have an undodgeable one shot. The celestial wings aoe can also be added to the list of offenders.

Should we record healers or other full tank builds oneshotting DPS or even tanks with one press of a button? Should we record walking around, then hearing the toad sound out of nowhere, then seeing 800k red damage floater on screen? Should we post logs of players having 40%+ of their outgoing damage represented by a mount power?

Single target mount magnitudes should be reduced to at most 1000, while AoE mount magnitudes should be reduced to at most 500.

Unknown · December 2020

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Unknown · December 2020

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Mount powers ruined PvP. Never been worse. Please nerf.

Comments

To break it down:

Combat advantage:

Critical Chance:

To break it down:

Combat advantage:

Critical Chance: