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Whisper Knife made redundant by one single mistake
Ever heard of Whisper Knife paragon of Rogue being used?
The way the paragon works is that it gives you the choice to boost your dps whilst being stealth or gives you ways to come in and out of stealth faster and thus boost your dps.
However, this is all moot when vengeance pursuit is not working as intented. The paragon has 2 activation. The tooltip clearly states in a single sentence that this power does not break stealth. However, the 2nd activation of vengeance pursuit breaks stealth. This works in direct conflict with both ways of how whisper knife can be used as stated above. The whole paragon becomes moot beacause vengeance pursuit is bugged i.e. not working as intended (as is indicated by its tooltip description) or the design team clearly slipped on this part, because all of the feats want the 2nd activation to not break stealth and both ways of dps'ing are effected this way.
I can't test the whole paragon because of this encounter messing it up and there is only one alternative ST encounter but then the difference between assasin and whisper knife is too large to even consider this paragon.
Could someone please clarify if this power works as intended? If yes, will the dev's consider a small change to not allow this power to break stealth?
The way the paragon works is that it gives you the choice to boost your dps whilst being stealth or gives you ways to come in and out of stealth faster and thus boost your dps.
However, this is all moot when vengeance pursuit is not working as intented. The paragon has 2 activation. The tooltip clearly states in a single sentence that this power does not break stealth. However, the 2nd activation of vengeance pursuit breaks stealth. This works in direct conflict with both ways of how whisper knife can be used as stated above. The whole paragon becomes moot beacause vengeance pursuit is bugged i.e. not working as intended (as is indicated by its tooltip description) or the design team clearly slipped on this part, because all of the feats want the 2nd activation to not break stealth and both ways of dps'ing are effected this way.
I can't test the whole paragon because of this encounter messing it up and there is only one alternative ST encounter but then the difference between assasin and whisper knife is too large to even consider this paragon.
Could someone please clarify if this power works as intended? If yes, will the dev's consider a small change to not allow this power to break stealth?
2
Comments
Any encounter that doesn't remove stealth says "does not remove stealth"
the first attack doesn't "break" stealth the second activation consumes stealth to increase its damage, by a lot, it works fine as it is, especially when combined with return to shadows and dark reimbursement, meaning the second activation will give 20%-25% stealth back. This means you can use stealth on every VP. The only "bug" with VP, or oversight is that if you only use stealth for the second part, not both attacks, you still get the damage boost, but it doesn't trigger shadow of demise.
This is by no means is the problem with the spec, the heavy reliance on stealth for the majority of damage boosts is, since there is no stealth recovery protection from taking damage, meaning the spec suffers greatly on fights where there is unavoidable damage, or minor aoe that normally would be ignored but hold back stealth regen.
The class feat - tenacious concealment helps abit, but its not enough and its a joint feature, not Whisperknife only.
So in short, no its not a bug, and no it doesnt make the spec moot
Looking at the feats, you really only have two option. One option is to stay as long as possible in stealth and get increased dps whilst you're in stealth (for more info, read all the feats again please). I believe the stealth drain with at wills is too much to really benefit from this route.
The 2nd option is to come out of stealth using LS and then use the rest of the encounters to refill the stealth meter again. The first feat will give you 2 sec reduction in cooldown when you enter stealth, the 2nd feat will give you 10% stealth meter when you attack from behind. Thus encounter SS will give you 30% stealth and VP with 2 activations will give you 20%. You basically have the stealth meter before LS comes off cooldown. The point is, with proper stealth management you can come in and out of stealth quickly and consistenly get 5% damage buff from your features and other relevant buffs.
Now what happens when VP 2nd hit breaks stealth is that it now is in a position to compete with LS. You enter stealth, you use VP (break stealth) and LS can't benefit. Or you enter stealth, LS and now VP 2nd activation will do half of aoe damage. What i am asking is that VP 2nd activation does not break stealth. You enter stealth with 1st VP activation already used to refill the stealth meter. You use the 2nd VP activation and then exit with LS (benefiting from both using the last feat). Then you use the SS to refill stealth meter and rinse and repeat but will definitely have 5% dmg buff at all times this way and 2 seconds cooldown reduction every now and then.
Since VP is not working as intended (in my opinion) i can't really say how good whisper knife is because assassin is just much easier and better at the same time. Your suggestion of using whisper knife in places where damage is unavoidable is just a bad idea, you have assassin for that very reason that doesn't rely as much on stealth meter at all. You just use stealth mode to benefit from LS and then wait for it to refill and rinse and repeat. Probably, the most brain dead class in existence after maining dps cleric, these classes seem like kindergarden stuff. I mean even cleric is not that hard, but assasin rogue is on another level.
Lastly, could you kindly point out where it says on tooltip that it doesn't break stealth. The tooltip for this encounter on its FIRST sentence ONLY says that it doesn't break stealth, so it implies that both activation shouldn't break stealth. Had it said "doesn't break stealth after mentioning the first activation, it would have made sense. All the rotations i am testing are clearly indicating that 2nd VP shouldn't leave stealth and still benefit from its ST increase in dps (as long as it is used in stealth). You completely misinterpreted what i was pointing out. I know how VP works, but either the ability is not working as intended and if it is, then it is thoroughly considered.
Second I want to hold from saying you must do this or must do that because you may use different feats and skills that may affect your needs and judgement. But that said playing the class as I have since beginning of mod 16 I find VP to be tacky and slow and should never be used for anything aside from PvP (and PERHAPS a single target boss like ToMM ... to be determined).
Even if the second VP hit were to not break stealth ... that gain and using a rotation like VP SS LB would still not be ideal most of the time over using LB promptly on entering stealth, followed by SS, and Blitz for multi target addon to SoD.
The idea being you want to enter, exit and renter stealth often. Each time you do is worth a stealthed LB with full AmB Haste and 50% more CS and each time you do means you get another SoD 5 secs later. So staying in stealth for long periods limits your SoD count.
SS, LB and Blitz should be your encounters 99% of the time (PVE, and if you are using the same feats and things i do anyways).
Advantageous Position maintains your stealth CA for a long enough period to max your SoD
(note SoD skill description is wrong how it reads in that it says WHILE in Stealth ... however it should read WHEN ENTERING Stealth multiple testing on guild targets show that my SoD adds all my encounter damage over the time interval whether in stealth or not including all the damage from the multi targets that Blitz hits aka 3-4 Blitz targets is greater than 1 VP hit ... assuming at least 1 crits)
Ambush Haste works best when you use your LB promptly upon entering stealth while having a high Stealth bar, ie so you leaving stealth anyways almost as soon as you enter. (There are times that you may choose to using SS first however normally you want the SS to refill stealth after leaving stealth, there are also times for using Blitz right away on entering stealth when dealing with mob control).
I myself am still a walking test subject testing many many things but I can say that I am at a point where I am more than able to be lead dps in LoMM quick runs (and im not using a lot of pot and buffs to do so). So with that said I encourage more WK rogues out there to experiment with whatever feats and skills you wish to use and that work for you.
One thing though WK is NOT assassin so i dont know what gear your using but a lot of that assassin BiS gear that your google tells you to use may not be ideal and to just be open minded on gear.
I prefer using stealth on VP instead of LB just because it does more damage, ye its abit gimmicky but, best cast scenario, if every lashing blade crits, that 50% crit severity only adds a 25% damage increase, assuming you have 100% crit severity already, the more you have, the weaker that 50% becomes. and since we are capped at 50% crit, its going to average out at 12.5% increase, but no higher than 25%.
Where as VP does 100mag up front, then 3 more hits for 100 each, for a total of 400, in stealth, that's 600 total, which is a 33% increase every time.
So 33% increase, vs 12.5-25% increase. seems like an easy choice.
I use VP + LB and Shadowy disappearance, since each hit does 250 mag, and both hits are separate so they both generate stealth back so it gives a pretty stable rotation of , stealth - VP -LB -SD, sly flourish till stealth regen, repeat, 9-10second cycle.
For AoE is swap out LB for Blade flurry, and use that with stealth instead for the double use, works nice since they have the same CD, I prefer it over Blitz because its 360 , over 90 degree cone
It makes me wonder that even if VP is clunky for ST, can this rotation even come close to assassin? It's definitely more fun and that is reasons enough to choose this paragon as long as it is not so far behind.
a)
No It doesnt. VP does 100 up front and a single target of 500 mag after. (There is no 3 hits on VP). There is also no gain on damage for being in stealth aside from the same gains you get for every other skill (ie 50% CS is a real gain for stealth VP does not have this). Sure it adds up to 600 mag but you do not get the 50% crit severity bonus and being slow and tacky 2 shot skilll means your wont get the full benefit of Amb of Haste. Every test I have done shows LB >> VP. (Can also be the gear i choose affects the outcome, however gear aside that wont change my opinion of LB >>VP)
b)
Blitz has 275 mag, BF 220 mag. Blitz has more range. Yes it can be a little trickier but its the better skill. Most times you choose your target by hitting it first with your LB anyways. For mob control it really dont matter that much which one gets hit first (not the BF lets you choose either).
Again feel free to use what skills work for you and your play style and the gear you choose to wear.
Lets go through the feats to get the better image. I didn't do this in my initial comment because i knew how long it would take to type but seems like no one is understanding what i am trying to get across.
1st set
Last Moments - 10% more dmg depending on opponents health and doubled whilst stealth (works similar to baphomet)
Shady Preparations - 2 sec cooldown reset for all encounters upon entering stealth
2nd set
hidden attack - at wills and passive stealth drain is lower
Dark reimbursement - 15% stealth refill upon exiting stealth with an encounter
3rd set
Return to shadows - Gain 10% stealth refill per encounter use outside of stealth and when behind enemy. Doesnt work during stealth.
One with the shadows - every 20 seconds your stealth meter is half refilled
4th set
Shadow demise - adds a mark when using encounter during stealth for 5 seconds and deals 30% of dmg dealt within that time.
Shadow opportunity - gives 15% weapon dmg upon leaving stealth for 5 seconds
5th set
Ambusher's haste - The only choice really. 20% dmg based on how full ur stealth meter is.
Lets say we choose:
Last moments
Dark reimbursements
Return to shadows
Shadow demise
Ambusher's haste
The feats above prioritise entering and leaving stealth fast, so as to make use of your skill 'cunning ambusher' - 5% dmg after stealth for 5 sec.
Currently, the rotation looks like, you enter stealth, leave quickly using Lashing strike (LS) and benefit from last moments (1) + Ambusher's haste (5) and even get Dark reimbursement(2) . You then quickly use Shadow strike (SS) to get back 30% and after few seconds you have your stealth meter full. You can even use VP activation 1x to refill stealth meter faster and then you have the option to either use VP again during stealth or wait for LS to come off cooldown, because remember, you do not want to keep hold off encounters when they are off cooldown as that is a dps loss.
If you decide to use VP 2nd activation during stealth to get the 500 mag ST dmg then you are left with LS coming off cooldown shortly afterwards with stealth meter nearly empty and SS is also on cooldown at this point and time. Since you can't keep hold of it, you use LS outside stealth and this way you are losing a significant dps which will be shown below.
Lets assume VP 2nd activation doesn't exit stealth as i think it shouldn't. You use VP 2nd activation and LS to get out of stealth, then SS to fill stealth meter within 5 seconds and rinse and repeat. This way, you get a VP that benefits from Last moments, Ambusher's haste and shadow demise. The only real loss is that you lose return to shadows (3) 10% stealth refill as you're in stealth . If you chose instead to go with Shady Preparations (1) instead of Last moments, you can actually easily use both LS and VP 2nd activation during stealth with proper management of stealth because of cooldowns working in your favour now.
If you go to the opposite path of staying in stealth for long, then you would want both VP activation to not leave stealth so you can damage the enemy during stealth as much as possible and keep the stealth meter regenning as long as possible when stealthed. You see what i am trying to get acorss? All the damn feats want the 2nd activation of VP to not go out stealth, and i literally mean all!!!
I do not know how close this build is to assassin's only build for ST until they make VP 2nd activation not break stealth. I just feel WK is so much more fun and reminds me a lot of my cleric dps with managing div lol.
It's the game's loss not mine by making one whole feat useless as more than 90% of rogues use assassin for aoe and for ST ofcourse. All those extra abilities for WK just seem like wasted.
didn't write that very clear, so ill try again
a) yes, it does, if used WITHOUT stealth, VP hits 1 target for 100mag, then 3 hits in a 10" radius around you on the second activation for 100 magnitude each hit. IF used with stealth the 2nd activation deals 500 to a single target instead.
no stealth = 100mag +300mag AoE around you.
stealth = 100+500mag single target
a stealth VP is ALWAYS a 200 magnitude increase on single target
a stealth LB is ONLY a 50% crit severity buff. when you crit, it does jack HAMSTER if you dont crit.
Yes, lashing blade, hits harder on a crit from stealth, than VP does, but the combination of Stealth+VP, then LB will consistently do more damage than a stealth LB + ...whatever other 2 encounters you want
b) from stealth BF gets 2 charges, so its 2x220. 440 magnitude total, it also has a shorter CD than blitz, which is why I like that combo,
But as you say, used whatever you like, its just a fun spec and isn't gonna compete with assassin any time soon
@sobi#1980
Short answer is no, WK isnt gonna compete with assassin because of 3 things
Duelist flurry bleed effect
toxins feat
more consistent percentage damage modifiers
It also regens stealth much faster through feats, which i think is ironic since it doesnt get anywhere near the same benefits from stealth as WK
a) fair point however its still not a better skill then LB from stealth immediate.
yes LB only does the extra 50% if your crit true, however if VP dont crit its even just as "useless" and in fact does less damage for me then a non crit LB (gear/stats may play a part in that). LB also procs much faster (no need to hit boss twice with a delay) taking full advantage of Ambush. The combo of VP + LB will not "always" do more then etc etc... but again that may be dependent on your style of play etc.
b) there will be rare times where this does come into play... however most times you are not going to be mobbed by mobs that dont get one shot in a contained area as opposed to the reach of blitz and the higher mag damage (for one round not the added 2xBF). for the few times that BF may work a touch better I cant be bothered to swap in and out. The vast majority of time Blitz will work better. This is of course my opinion and i am sure that BF works for you fine so to each his own.
Assasin does not regenerate stealth faster though feats (yes it has the passive skill i will give you that but it has no other skills that help fill stealth faster/more than WK ones). Maybe you just using the wrong ones? Shady Prep is an overall better feat than Last Moments for most things. SS when used properly fills a larger percent of your stealth bar. Dark Reinburse also when you pop your LB entering stealth fills a large percent. Return to shadows also works to help fill your bar. and though i never used One with Shadows it may work too (i dont know). (Also I am using other features available to both classes for CD cooldowns / and stealth regen (Tenacious Conceal) thus allowing me to use Shady Prep and apply more encounters faster .. thus regen stealth faster ).
Assasin has a few things going for it much like a Warden HR where by it can concentrate all its gear into melee and so on. It also has the use of the toxins feat (and better use of smoke bomb) that make it more effective in bleeding mobs faster without having to press encounters and so on. I dont use Duelist Flurry to be able to make any comments on the effectiveness of it. I can t stand the skill myself and from what i can see via Feats and such its geared specifically for assasin anyways. The vast majority of the time I am using my encounters not at wills, but for at wills i choose Sky Flourish and one of Cloud Steel / Shurk Toss (depending on my mood). Assassin has some advantages for sure but that dont mean the WK cant compete however, and currently anything shy of ToMM (which i require time to work out/practice/test) i can compete just fine with most assasins thanks (and i dont even use demo set). I do however concede that i have more testing work to do yet to go up against the best of the best. I will also have to start using all the same pots/elixirs etc that i normally dont.
Its all in good fun so of course play whatever class you wish whatever style / skill you wish too. I for one enjoy the challenge of making WK great as opposed to the boredom of assassin. I however am not an elitist type where by I dont need/care to have to run the hardest highest dungeon the moment it comes out so I have the time to put into my class rather than google copy what is the easiest and fastest way to run the latest and greatest.
Best case scenario is, you have all 3 encounters hitting behind the target, 10% stealth each, 30% together, and 1 return to shadows proc of 15% for a total of 45% stealth returned each cycle.
Assassin has master of shadows, which is 50% passive regen. This is already faster than the BEST case scenario for WK, they also have gloaming cut, which can add another 7.5%
Shadow Strike, may look tempting, but it really isn't, its damage is much lower than other encounters and its CD is longer. The buff it gives only effects specific abilities, most of which are sub par. and it doesn't last long enough to be up 100%.
the stealth it gives back isn't that helpful either, that one cycle, you will get stealth back really fast, but what do you use if for? at wills? all encounters are on CD right now. so you pop it for at wills, but soon encounters are coming back from CD ( except for SS since its 3 seconds longer CD so you cant even use that again for extra stealth regen). And now encounters are back up, but stealth is only half full, so you have to delay encounters while stealth regens, wasting damage.
Its more a Pvp thing, where you want short bursts of damage to finish a player quickly and since all the WK stealth gain is from abilities not passives, its not effected by taking damage, but it will still only refill your stealth meter 65% at BEST, the remaining 35% much regen naturally, which is slowed by taking damage.
Stealth without an encounter to use for a damage buff, either lashing blade, VP or Blade Flurry is pointless, since At wills cannot grant shadows demise. so unless you can bring stealth regen down to 4 seconds ( which you cannot) so as to always have it available for an encounter each cycle, it would be steath + encounters 5sec buff, steath + atwills 5sec buff, repeat.
Yes you can spread out encounters so you have them at different times, but this really lowers the damage from Shadow of demise, since you want to do as much damage in the 5second window as possible
One use on SS gives me 20% of my stealth bar instantly. Same for Dark Remburse instant 15%. Those to skill alone fill up my bar 35% instantly. This is greater than a 50% passive. Add Return to Shadows and that another 15%-30% depending on how many you can hit and whether stealth or not. For the purpose of discussion lets say 10%. Thats 50% of the stealth bar refilled INSTANTLYish ... depending on how fast your can use your skills CD etc. SS when used properly (and with good gear) is uber in helping setup your rotations while providing decent damage as filler. If you are wearing all melee gear and geared for assassin then of course your SS wont do as much. Try an ebony ring or nickel plate ring instead. And yes dont expect that it will do more than a lashing blade or even a VP critted ... but that is not it's purpose. Its a filler skill for increase your stealth bar (and as added bonus it bump your range damage on the target .... so Blitz can hit that target harder).
And no you dont spread out your encounter( much as possible anyways) yo aim to have all the CDs trigger within your SoD window (wont always happen but that is fine).
Once again not telling you to use it or play as I play. I encourage you and others to experiment with whatever part of WK you wish. The more the merrier i say. I do however feel it's pert-ant to at least attempt to get rid of some of the phobias about certain things. If SS and Shady Prep and some of these other thing i LOVE do not work well for you that is fine but do not dismiss their value.. is all i shall say.
So anyways .. I am done here. Will see you all in game when WK takes over the server. Good luck with your build.
1st Feature: Advantageous Position - Maintain Combat Advantage 5 seconds after leaving stealth
2nd Feature: Any (situational)
Boon1 - Shadowy Preperation - Cooldowns reduced 2 seconds when entering stealth
Boon2 - Dark Reinbursement - 15% stealth gain when using encounter to leave stealth
Boon3 - One With Shadows - (20 second proc) 50% stealth gain & 5 second 5% damage boost
Boon4 - Shadow of Demise - deal 30% delayed extra damage
Boon5 - Ambusher's Haste - deal up to 20% extar damage based on stealth bar level
Daily1 - (AoE) Whirlwind of Blades or Lurker's Assault
Daily2 - (S-T) Hateful Knives, because it gives 6 seconds combat advantage
AoE enc1 - Blade Flurry - You can hit this 2 or 3 times in a row
AoE enc2 - Path of the Blade or Blitz
AoE enc3 - Shadowy Disappearance
SingT enc1 - Lashing Blade
SingT enc2 - Impact Shot
SingT enc3 - Shadow Strike
At-Will 1 - Sly Flourish
At-Will 2 - Shuriken Toss
Observations/Notes: the 50% gain from One With Shadows works even while your moving and is the best even though it throws rotations off-kilter. The only time to use Sly Flourish at-will is when it is purely single target. I've found that it is often more effective "Proc-wise" to alternate at-wills when fighting. The Dailies specific to Whisperknife are pathetic. Don't be afraid to use the basics, since they are very good.
The Whisperknife in AoE is like an assassin with an extra encounter, and an at-will that is decent on top of that. AoE is good. Versus single target, Whisperknives are challenged and cannot outperform an Assassin. You could just switch to assassin for boss fights, but, a decent Whisperknife build will do 90% of the boss damage of an Assassin. The Whisperknife deals more peripheral AoE damage during boss fights, and, if you can accept the 10% loss of damage versus bosses... then Whisperknife is the way to go.
Players often get all up into the details of what is better in a build, but ive found that basic peripherals are far more important. To maximize Shadowknife damage potential, you should have a Legendary Owbear in utility slot, have "ONE" Tenebrous rank15 enchantment, make sure you have 80,000 crit and 130,000 - 150,000 Combat Advantage. Having "Negative" stats like Armor Penetration and Accuracy above 80,000 is a total waste. If your gonna go over-max do it on Critical or CA. Maximize power. Lastly, if you have an Envenomed Journal artifact set... consider using Kohambas boots (3% AP gain per kill) & a Tanners Leather Ring. This is gonna give you just as much damage as any other ring.. maybe more.
The real reason to choose Whisperknife is its versatility and fun factor, which will be enhanced with the upcoming mod for sure.