Fuzzy Logic

raymark · March 2019

Rogue Skill -> Shadow of Demise -- paraphasing "reapply 30%/50% the damage you do from you encounters over a 5/6 second window after immediately entering stealth". Implies (=>) Throw up as many encounters as you can in 5 seconds. To help with this process we give you recovery, AP gain, Knives Edge and Shady Prep skills and Invisible Infiltrator passive. All designed to help you use your dailies/encounters/stealth faster (though not spamming them exculsively).

Mod 16.

Wait wait wait. lets split up Knives Edge and Shady Prep. Lets get rid of your ability to add recovery, lets put Invisible Inf into a useless path call it Assassin. Lets make sure that Lurker's Assault is not in the same path as Invisible Inf. Lets make sure that you strongest encounters are in the path Assassin where Shadow of Demise is not. (Deft Strike, and the new one. Lashing is available in both so credit that i guess), so that now you stuck using a useless throw skill +smoke bomb + lashing as your encounters to apply damage for Shadow of Demise.

In exchange for all those losses in damage and cd recovery time (50% +) we will add like 4% recharge time.
We wish you luck in applying great damage into your Shadow of Demise 5 second window, with fewer potent encounters and no way effectively cut back the recharge time of a 14s CD.

Logic Summary SoD -> use multiple potent encounters over 5 secs.
Mod16 -> make it impossible to use more than 1 potent encounter over 5 secs

SoD && Mod16 == NULL

Anyone else seeing the fuzzy logic here? I am curious also if other classes have the same issues of fuzzy logic.

havlocke · March 2019

The faulty logic here is that you are trying to use Mod 15 guidelines to the Mod 16 game. They have repeatedly said, the cooldowns are there for a reason. If you give the ability to reduce the cooldown on something, that will also reduce the damage. That's a core balancing mechanic now. It sucks in many ways, but that's how things are now.

greywynd · March 2019

And the separation of wanted skills is so that there isn't one hot build that will only ever see play.

raymark · March 2019

And you are both missing the actual point. Their logic of not allowing CD reduction and giving the most potent encounters to Assassin (which thus far is a useless path since there is no lurker assault among other things time will tell if new gear makes it viable) is a DIRECT CONFLICT with the principles of Shadow of Demise => apply as many potent encounters as you can in 5/6 secs. At this time there is still only one valid path in mod 16 (to be determined yet with better gear and things) so you separation arg to make to valid paths is moot.

greywynd · March 2019

The actual point seems to be that the way you want your character to work won't any longer.

raymark · March 2019

greywynd said:
The actual point seems to be that the way you want your character to work won't any longer.

No the actual point is to give feedback to the developers which I am doing so that they can take what i give them and hopefully process it and make changes. The actual point is that there new changes are conflicting in logic and make the character worse off by completely mismatching skills and adding dumb changes. Will they listen to what I say? Who knows, but I can guarantee that if I don't give my feedback that nothing will happen.

Ask yourself this question? Why is the CD for Lashing in Mod15 so high? Basic answer .... because it accounts for the boost in recovery. It accounts for using Shady Prep AND Knives Edge. Basicly the CD time assumes that a mod 15 rogue will cut back the CD so it sets it at a high level factoring in that. With the cutbacks built in the CD can drop to a level whereby it done right you can get the most out of it. NOW, mod16 comes along. Completely mucks up the optimal way of reducing the CDs of the encounters that you use but DOES NOT cutback the CD, nor does it offer any great new ways to cutback the CDs. Now what we have is an abnormally high CD that has no way to cut it back down to a level whereby the skill SoD cut use them effectively. End result is MOD16 (at least as the preview server is now)

havlocke · March 2019

raymark#0909 said:

greywynd said:
The actual point seems to be that the way you want your character to work won't any longer.
No the actual point is to give feedback to the developers which I am doing so that they can take what i give them and hopefully process it and make changes. The actual point is that there new changes are conflicting in logic and make the character worse off by completely mismatching skills and adding dumb changes. Will they listen to what I say? Who knows, but I can guarantee that if I don't give my feedback that nothing will happen.

Ask yourself this question? Why is the CD for Lashing in Mod15 so high? Basic answer .... because it accounts for the boost in recovery. It accounts for using Shady Prep AND Knives Edge. Basicly the CD time assumes that a mod 15 rogue will cut back the CD so it sets it at a high level factoring in that. With the cutbacks built in the CD can drop to a level whereby it done right you can get the most out of it. NOW, mod16 comes along. Completely mucks up the optimal way of reducing the CDs of the encounters that you use but DOES NOT cutback the CD, nor does it offer any great new ways to cutback the CDs. Now what we have is an abnormally high CD that has no way to cut it back down to a level whereby the skill SoD cut use them effectively. End result is MOD16 (at least as the preview server is now)

Giving feedback is fine. But this is not what we are talking about.

The point we are making is that you are still using Mod 15 logic and Mod 15 EXAMPLES to support your argument and this is false. Shady prep and Knives edge from Mod 15 has nothing to do with the CD for Lashing or anything at all in Mod 16. There will be no new way to cut back CDs in this MOD. This is deliberate. A new design philosophy that you may disagree with, but that's essentially the core of the new game mechanics.

raymark · March 2019

havlocke said:

raymark#0909 said:

greywynd said:
The actual point seems to be that the way you want your character to work won't any longer.
No the actual point is to give feedback to the developers which I am doing so that they can take what i give them and hopefully process it and make changes. The actual point is that there new changes are conflicting in logic and make the character worse off by completely mismatching skills and adding dumb changes. Will they listen to what I say? Who knows, but I can guarantee that if I don't give my feedback that nothing will happen.

Ask yourself this question? Why is the CD for Lashing in Mod15 so high? Basic answer .... because it accounts for the boost in recovery. It accounts for using Shady Prep AND Knives Edge. Basicly the CD time assumes that a mod 15 rogue will cut back the CD so it sets it at a high level factoring in that. With the cutbacks built in the CD can drop to a level whereby it done right you can get the most out of it. NOW, mod16 comes along. Completely mucks up the optimal way of reducing the CDs of the encounters that you use but DOES NOT cutback the CD, nor does it offer any great new ways to cutback the CDs. Now what we have is an abnormally high CD that has no way to cut it back down to a level whereby the skill SoD cut use them effectively. End result is MOD16 (at least as the preview server is now)

Giving feedback is fine. But this is not what we are talking about.

The point we are making is that you are still using Mod 15 logic and Mod 15 EXAMPLES to support your argument and this is false. Shady prep and Knives edge from Mod 15 has nothing to do with the CD for Lashing or anything at all in Mod 16. There will be no new way to cut back CDs in this MOD. This is deliberate. A new design philosophy that you may disagree with, but that's essentially the core of the new game mechanics.

No beavis. I am using simple logic independent of modules. Read a skills description then ask yourself how do you get the best out of that skill. Then look at what the modules offer. I could care less what there intentions are in mod 16 or mod 15. Look purely at the skill then above all else ask can you get the most out of that skill given what they offer you. Now if you can't acknowledge the simple fact that SoD and mod 16 are conflicting in principle then there is nothing more I have to say to you because your clearly don't understand rogue.

havlocke · March 2019

Yes, there is nothing more to be said. You are correct, that SoD wont work in principle in Mod 16 anymore.

I'm not sure where you got "in principle" from, since SoD is a power in a game whose mechanics WILL NO LONGER EXIST post Mod 16.

pitshade · March 2019

Shadow of Demise still exists in mod 16. However the OP makes it seem like only damage from encounter powers is counted for the final proc, which is not so. Inflict damage using an encounter while stealthed and then any damage inflicted during the time window is counted, be it from at wills, encounters or dailies. While it is no longer possible to use the things listed in the OP to buff the damage or reduce cooldown, the proc still does work on the coming module.

However, unless something major changes between now and launch, the Assassin path is likely to be the only viable one, as per the theorycrafter on the TR discord.

Fuzzy Logic

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