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Class demand discrepancy
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
There is a difference between the popularity of the various classes (as measured by the number of players who want to play them) and the demand for those same classes (as measured by how much those classes are wanted in groups).
Specifically, there are too many DPSers and too few support players.
This is not the first time we see such a discrepancy - those of you who have been around long enough may remember when the "optimal" party for CN (back when it was a real dungeon) included 4 CWs, for example.
I see this as a discrepancy between supply and demand, which effectively devalues the "supply" (the DPS classes) - something which annoys players who love playing DPS classes and see big damage numbers on their screen. Sure, sure, they can make a "support" alt and get into end-game content easily that way, but that's not what many of them actually want to do.
No, the proper "fix" to the problem would be something different:
The point is that the current 5-man content doesn't "demand" 3 DPSers. Sure, you can complete it with a group like that, but it is perceived by many to be inefficient (even if that just means taking a couple of minutes longer to run ToNG or something like that).
No, the only real long-term solution is to make end-game content where the "optimal" group corresponds more closely to the actual popularity of the classes. The developers should stay away from things like the Orcus fight in ToNG (which basically seems designed for a single DPS and 4 buffers) and focus on content that actually requires 2 or 3 DPSers in the group.
Say, a boss fight split in two parts - two bosses in separate areas, or a single boss, with a large number of adds that have to be fought and defeated at the same time. If we get more content where it is optimal to have to have multiple DPSers in the group, people will form such groups, and that will eventually reduce the current problem.
Specifically, there are too many DPSers and too few support players.
This is not the first time we see such a discrepancy - those of you who have been around long enough may remember when the "optimal" party for CN (back when it was a real dungeon) included 4 CWs, for example.
I see this as a discrepancy between supply and demand, which effectively devalues the "supply" (the DPS classes) - something which annoys players who love playing DPS classes and see big damage numbers on their screen. Sure, sure, they can make a "support" alt and get into end-game content easily that way, but that's not what many of them actually want to do.
No, the proper "fix" to the problem would be something different:
Solution: We need "end-game" content where the "optimal" group has multiple DPSers.
Consider for the moment the random queue groups with "1 healer, 1 tank, 3 DPS". My guess is that this actually reflects the popularity of the various classes nicely, but groups like that are perceived by many to be "sub-optimal". Some people bypass the restrictions by forming a group with, say DC, OP, GWF, MoF CW and Temp SW - the last two counting as DPS. (Yes, I know you can also queue with an OP as DPS, but I consider that cheating).The point is that the current 5-man content doesn't "demand" 3 DPSers. Sure, you can complete it with a group like that, but it is perceived by many to be inefficient (even if that just means taking a couple of minutes longer to run ToNG or something like that).
No, the only real long-term solution is to make end-game content where the "optimal" group corresponds more closely to the actual popularity of the classes. The developers should stay away from things like the Orcus fight in ToNG (which basically seems designed for a single DPS and 4 buffers) and focus on content that actually requires 2 or 3 DPSers in the group.
Say, a boss fight split in two parts - two bosses in separate areas, or a single boss, with a large number of adds that have to be fought and defeated at the same time. If we get more content where it is optimal to have to have multiple DPSers in the group, people will form such groups, and that will eventually reduce the current problem.
Hoping for improvements...
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Comments
Basically we are at the point where 4 buffers and 1 dps can raise the effectivness of that one dps higher then a 2 buffers to 3 dps. Which means buffs are to strong.
The solution should start at making external buffs go through diminished returns / additive and tweak after that.
Take away the buffs and you will get back to epeen measuring and tank+ 4XY players for Z farmruns.
But the larger issue of, for example 80% DPS players and 20% supports, should be solved controlled, and a good way to start is in a single tune-able way not by killing buffs and with them people who worked hard for their chars, but balanced enough that one buffer in a group is better than taking a dps instead but 2 buffers will not be better than 5 dps (for example).
I don't agree it's not Cryptic fault. Yes, the community can do a lot about this, and many do, in their private bubbles. And Yes the general 'zerg' channels, lfg and so on, can stop being afraid to loose 30 seconds of a run and be more flexible, especially when they know the party is strong enough to finish it smoothly.
But at the same time Cryptic can adjust class balance on a monthly basis, and not once a blue moon, and thus getting some classes stuck out of favor for very long times, even years in some cases, and FOTM becomes FOTYear too.
Also dungeon design, with meager loot, crappy RNG, and no adjustment for various tiers + obsoleting the older content and thus killing verity, forces even the better players run the same thing over and over and over again and again.
What is the solution? I guess maybe a combination of:
1. Balancing the most acute issues like buff scaling.
2. Creating more role specialization - controller, AoE dps, Single target DPS, tank, healer, buffer, debuffer, damage mitigation, etc.. - Having the capstones, higher tear feats and paragons play more significant role, so there is a more significant difference, one clearer path and choice for tanking, one for dps, one for buffing, for example. Still allowing tweaks and min-maxing in the way there, but narrowing it down, so capstones have clear benefit and specialization.
3. Creating content that match the specializations.
4. And most importantly creating viable paths for all classes for multiple specializations, so each class is at least viable in a couple.
Or maybe this will create 5 DCs going and swapping load-outs for each campfire
PS:
It is always possible to add some rainbow bonus for DPS, lets say 10% buff per different class in party. It's perhaps not the most elegant, but can be enough to counter the '4 CW' return.
I think a major issue is that Cryptic decided that all DPS should be interchangeable. The classes all have unique strengths but the game doesn't reward them. With power creep (weapon damage especially) and buff stacking, even single target TRs can quickly clear trash mobs. Bosses don't have meaningful Adds. There is no longer a reason to have players doing different things in the fight. Everyone just surrounds the boss and runs a rotation.
Compare to old time NW where we split into teams to complete Icespire Peak, Spellplague Caverns, Mad Dragon or Dread Vault. Someone had to deal with threats besides the boss. While the game was too trash heavy then, the modern game has gone too far in the other direction.
We need CC immune elites that need to be tanked but also CCable mobs that don't respond normally to threat and must be controlled. (and fix the power creep/buffs to prevent burning them)
We need to differentiate between single target classes and AOE classes and make both roles necessary in dungeons.
The majority of players want to play as DPS but not as the same class. Making DPS a generic role means that the majority of players compete for the same spot and facilitates single DPS groups.
At this point in the game's life, I'm not sure that any meaningful change can be made that won't anger the veterans who've spent lots of AD and/or cash to get their characters where they are today. However, I can say that if Cryptic wants to change things, I'll happily read the patch notes
Myself and many others ditched our DPS toons when FBI came out and focused on support classes. I'm not overly excited on the meta changing simply because of the time and effort invested to adapt to the game changes already.
Some of them are just selfish. I mean, exceedingly so. They think that having to spend 30 extra seconds or whatever is just not worth it to them.
Their 30 seconds is just too important for them to concern themselves with whether or not the larger community suffers.
And sure this is shortsighted, but it's how it is sometimes.
"I do not care about you, I care about me, and if you picked the "wrong" class it's not my fault".
In other cases, though, it's a lack of knowledge, and maybe fear creeps in here.
Some people looked online, saw how these people or those people did the run, and that's their formula for success.
They do not know how to adjust for something else.
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But the cure for both of these, for all of this, is a group of friends/guild mates that are just willing to try to run these with the classes at hand.
Maybe things just can't get done with what you have, but I think that there are enough people out there willing to try these sub-optimal runs.
The trick, of course, is that sometimes the people complaining about not being invited to the party aren't actually interested in "let's just see if we can run it with what we have", but rather they want to be the sub-optimal choice in an otherwise optimal team in order to help guarantee their success.
Not interested in any sort of "equal rights for all of the classes", just for their character.
Your credibility starting to hit the floor referring to that constantly!
The meta is in very bad situation and I don't think stating and avoiding 3-4CW like it was a nightmare is the most important thing to do here!
1. Wrong.
2. My credibility is fine, but thanks for your concern.
3. It was nightmare, the fact that you were either not around, or so blind playing CW, or don't care except your own selfish issues is a different problem. But now when 4 different classes are in a party and DPS is mostly interchangeable is vastly better than when only one class got to play the game and all the rest sat and watched. Not that one slot (or 2) for all the DPSs is great, but still better to have one slot than none.
If you can't generalize form a historical example of 4CW, into 4-5 of any of the same class in a party = very bad. And stuck on seeing it as an affront to CWs, perhaps a break for the game and a vacation, or just reading a book is in order.
Or if that single line is what you took from the post, I'm afraid that there is no help.
Personally I would love to see more new content where 1 DPS and 4 buffers is not optimal. This might include adds that have to be controlled (face it - it is silly to have a CW that practically never controls anything), or multiple bosses that have to be fought at the same time (and thus require multiple DPSers. Maybe also boost the TRs in PvE a bit as well (with their focus on single targets, it might be necessary to have some of their powers work in a different way in PvE vs. PvP, in order to avoid making them totally unbeatable in PvP).
CR took some steps in this direction, but not enough to significantly affect group composition.
There were a lot of changes and rework happened on this game but people who just keep remembering this shows very shotsightness!
You are not even a real dps and can't be serious if you think the current meta is better.
3 dps is always better than this Real Nightmare. You can test your character vastly more easy!
Not to mention being carried by 4 support is not really fun and manly.
You may attempt to sound like your goals were noble to help the game become better to but we all know thats not the case don't we?
Maybe you should think of solutions instead for a change!
But again, don't let one sentence out of an entire post to blind you, because you are not capable generalizing from an example, oh wait.. sorry... Nooo, they didn't tell me I'm fake! Please don't tell me that only GWF or SW are real DPS!
For everyone else reading, please don't ask why GWF and SW, I don't know either, but here is the quote: I know you have an issue actually reading the posts, but don't worry, I'm here for you, and I'll help you out!
We will now count the amount of different classes in a typcial end-game party:
1. DCs one or two, but you sure want to have one of those. So rise one finger for DCs!
2. a Tank, usually OP, but still different than DC, lets rise a finger for our second class. No no, no staring at the screen fuming, lets rise that cute finger. And no pocking the finger at people near you!
3. A DPS ! We have few to pick from but they can be all not DC and not OP. So yes, here we go, another finger up! We have 3 different classes in a party !
4. Now the tension rising, if we took 2 DCs this is the last spot! What we will take ? Can we take another, different DPS? Yes we can! Can we take a different support like SW / MoF, yes we can! Or perhaps HR for both? Or maybe GF? What is going on?! Those choices, choices! Too many choices, but lets rise a finger for all those viable options.
Now how many fingers you have up? Yes, you are right, four! Great work!
Now what is better 4 or 1-2 ? This is advanced material, but I'm sure we can do this together, if you need, help yourself with using the other hand, rise two fingers, and then tell me what hand has the most rised fingers!
Yes, you are right, 4 is better than 2 here! GJ! Then make a party with 3 DPS. We just discussed about this above, real man don't cry! This river of tears is very unmanly. And you know how it is, you must be a big hairy man to play DPS ! Or your DPS needs to be a big hairy man ?! Im already confused from all the testosterone and misogyny. HAMSTER, you caught me, the GWF secret service is paying me to prevent the rise of the CW! They've said that "The supremacy of the real man, with big weapons, must be maintained at all costs"
So now I have a new yacht! But don't tell anyone, we wouldn't want all the bribe checks to stop coming... You mean like I've posted in those my 2 first posts in this thread, that detail different solutions?
Hmm, strange, I think you rolled your CW with too low INT, was it bellow 10 that you can't read in D&D rules?
Beside that they changed the only working arcane ranged burst spellcaster to some melee dot character. Which is not really a ranged character. (yeah. I know SW but I am not a fan.) I dunno man. You sounded like all your goal was to avoid is 3-4 identical dps in parties.
I say we have to try everything because it can't be worse. I get it now. Maybe you are not against CWs and don't celebrate annually their nerf.
You only want to have lots of support characters in the parties.
Yeah. About that...
As I mentioned elsewhere please come to my guild and explain my newbies they should delete their SW/CW and start levelling DC/OP. Thanks in advance!
As I said your credibility is shaking and you can't be taken seriously with this prattle.
80% of new players wants to play dps. And they don't want to play DC/OP/Gf and don't want to heal/tank/buff.
Even leaving for Bless Online because dps characters are missing there...
3 dps+2 support(not even buffer) is very common in other mmos. Again. Some prattle. You should know that swith one buffer to a dps and the run will be much slower.
Buffers have to go! Sorry!
Power hard cap; removing power sharing; serious buff diminishing returns. Nerfing buffs+buffing dps characters self-dmg from feats. We just have to do everthing! You said that. Not me!
You forgat their secret handshake. Like: "All right people! All other dps class was nerfed and we were buffed. Good job everyone! The qq choir was paid and can rest for till next update. Drinks and cookies in the back!"
Looks like the blood moon did something to people around here.
random queue already have this implemented we need this for regular party too
i bet there its people like me who never put foot in TONG Craddle or CR and im not poor item level i am 15k+ but im cw and cw are not allowed in dungeons we need strong dps like gwf to swing 2 times sword and all monster die not nerfed to death characters with poor dps like cw