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Should they give the option to have a beard with a Female Dwarf?

thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 307 Arc User
edited July 2018 in General Discussion (PC)
Its in the lore, Female Dwarves can and do grow beards. Maybe not as impressive as a mans but still a beard. I say they give beard options for female dwarves. What do you guys think? Personally I think they should add to female dwarves beards. Would be good for those that want to roleplay a female dwarf with one and it kinda bothers me that they don't have the option.

Comments

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    I don't think that is supported in the modern pen and paper game.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • graydoomgraydoom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 23 Arc User
    Please dont...
  • soditalloversoditallover Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 88 Arc User
    yes they should be able to have beards the same as male dwarfs,
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    Right after they give half-elves the option to grow beards.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,041 Arc User
    How about repairing the dwarf racial traits, before adding or changing anything else?
    :|
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    By Moradin, yes!! *slams down ale mug* Gives ya sumthin' to hold onto!!

    In the 2e game I run, one of my favorite NPCs is a bearded female Dwarf named Thanra Rockforge. She's a Thief/Cleric of Vergadain, a shop owner in a mostly human town, and she runs it like a Thief/Cleric of Vergadain running a shop in a human town would run it! Her brother, and partner-in-crime, is a *little* bit more of a stand up fella and is a minor voice of reason sometimes, but she's the brains and the will of the operation. At a distance, some humans have a hard time telling them apart.

    She shaved the beard once because everyone kept bugging her about it, but when she did, everyone agreed she looked better WITH the beard! :lol:
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I always thought that was just another one of Peter Jackson's perversions of Tolkien's work, but it turns out Tolkien may be the one who introduced it. Found this FAQ by Steward Jensen, http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html
    where he quotes Tolkien as writing, "no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."

    I don't know much about the history of D&D's lore, but often it seems like it intentionally veers from Tolkien. So it would actually surprise me if their dwarfs did fit his mold.
    Post edited by frogwalloper#6494 on
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    It wasn't part of first edition or the preceeding rules 70s -80s. According to Wikipedia, some settings have had it but in general it hasn't been incorporated into the game.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    Actually, dwarven bearded ladies were in 1st edition. In the 1E DMG on page 16 in a section about dwarves, it mentions: "Considering that their women tend to be bearded too, it is not surprising that some dwarves are
    somewhat forward in their behavior towards females not so adorned." I'm not sure where else it may be mentioned. I'm not sure if it carried over into 2E either. I play it like dwarven women generally shave when in the outside world or when expecting company, but when at home, some shave and some don't.

    As Exhibit B, I give you the cover of "A1 - Slave Pits of the Undercity":


    That lady on the right, swinging the warhammer, is actually a bearded she-dwarf! I've seen that picture off and on for the last 30 years and never realized that until it was pointed out to me recently. I thought that was just her hair, but if you look closely, it is actually a beard! She's a pre-gen named Elwita in the back of the adventure.

    ... Umm, I think it should be said that I really don't care about this as much as it may look. I prefer my ladies clean-shaven, just saying something that's a thing is a thing. :wink:
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Yeah, I see that in the DMG now. The PH doesn't mention it under the playable races section. All in all, it makes me wonder if it was something dropped when TSR got into it with Tolkein estate. A lot of direct Middle Earth references got shuffled away. Regardless, it was obscure enough that I don't recall seeing it until years later, and then only about Tolkien's work.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User

    Its in the lore, Female Dwarves can and do grow beards. Maybe not as impressive as a mans but still a beard. I say they give beard options for female dwarves. What do you guys think? Personally I think they should add to female dwarves beards. Would be good for those that want to roleplay a female dwarf with one and it kinda bothers me that they don't have the option.

    No, because then all the female dwarves without beards would have to take a Charisma penalty.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    To whatever extent it may or may not have been an "official" thing early on, pretty sure that by 4E at least it was gone.

    While Tolkein can be singled out as a major influence on the early game, they have been moving away from him for a long time.

    And he was far from the only influence.
    The magic system was famously taken from Jack Vance (to the extent that it was called a "Vancian" magic system), and classic mythology had it's place as well, though with Tolkein also borrowing from classic myth, it led to some credit being given to Tolkein when it wasn't deserved.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    This has all been very informative! The subject of D&D races has interested me for a long while since I think they're pretty unimaginative on the whole. I wish they'd selected their new creatures from among the lesser known folklore and fairytales instead of falling back on hybridizing what was already out there.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User

    This has all been very informative! The subject of D&D races has interested me for a long while since I think they're pretty unimaginative on the whole. I wish they'd selected their new creatures from among the lesser known folklore and fairytales instead of falling back on hybridizing what was already out there.

    If they had went the obscure route, or just developed them from mostly original ideas, I doubt that the game would have done as well.

    Getting people into the game if you are talking about Sidhe or Tuatha De Dannon is a harder sell, never mind getting into specific roleplay with obscure mythological history working in the background or some completely original setting with who knows what races.

    The audience was generally familiar with Tolkein, so using a more generic Tolkeinesque elf and dwarf that borrowed more from Norse myth meant that more people that would be inclined to play will know what they are dealing with. That's a level of comfort that would help people get over the hump of the people that would try to bully them for their choice of hobbies, and it meant that there were enough people out there that when the Satanic panic hit there was enough support, enough reasonable people, to stand against it.

    As time went on they have added more races and monsters and come up with ways to let players tap into more options, but at the core you have what was always there, and that is a familiar selection that people are comfortable with.


    They want to add Dragonborn and maybe eventually Genasi, Assimar (horrible name. Horrible), Warforged and whatever else down the road?

    Great.

    Using those four and Tieflings as the starting races and then maybe adding Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Half-Orcs down the line?

    That, to me, is completely backwards.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    Assimar (horrible name. Horrible)

    If it makes any difference, it's "Aasimar" with two A's. Nephilim would be a better name, but Aasimar were created in 2E and back then they were trying super hard to scrub any theological references from the game to make nice with the Satanic Panic types.

    In my own world, Aasimar and Tieflings are both the same race (Nephilim), but manifest in different ways and it rarely shows in obvious physical ways. They are closer to Greek demigods, but not as powerful.
  • jade1280jade1280 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    Much more a Tolkin thing but i am a stone cold hell yeah for it.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    Using those four and Tieflings as the starting races and then maybe adding Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Half-Orcs down the line?
    That, to me, is completely backwards.

    I agree with you about incorporating the familiar races first. As I said, it's the hybridizing; the half this, half that, that's annoying. I'd be fine if it was a cross-racial thing, but most of the time it's across-species which is silly and gross; or even inter-entity - which actually does have a rich history in mythology, but usually those were benevolent beings. The major D&D hybrids were all taken from the Natural Evil or Chaotic Evil groups. Which is absurd.

    Regarding the demonic panic thing, it's hard to blame people. There's a big difference between a concept inspired by folklore or myth and a concept that's made up of stolen essentials and names from an actual, living body of belief that have been given a little twist. It was a stupid move to take something that 57% of the world's population takes seriously and treat it like a school yard joke. It caused problems - still causes problems, and ensured an enormous number of potential players would never even pick the game up.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User



    Regarding the demonic panic thing, it's hard to blame people. There's a big difference between a concept inspired by folklore or myth and a concept that's made up of stolen essentials and names from an actual, living body of belief that have been given a little twist. It was a stupid move to take something that 57% of the world's population takes seriously and treat it like a school yard joke. It caused problems - still causes problems, and ensured an enormous number of potential players would never even pick the game up.

    I am mixed on this.
    The matter of religion and faith is not really a conversation to have here, but I think that the concept of there being devils and demons in the game is not a bad one in and of itself.

    They are there as enemies. They are things that the player characters should be fighting.
    Now maybe some people would say that it trivializes things, but if those same people can argue that "pretending to be an evil character" is leading kids to evil then wouldn't they have to concede that "pretending to fight demons and devils" is a good thing?

    If there were flaws I would say that they were:

    1) Inserting Devil and Demon lords, using the names that they did. Using "close but not quite" names like Modeus, Orkas, Demogorg, etc, or just coming up with original names for those beings could have helped bypass a lot of attention and issues.

    2) Supporting evil player characters in the rules. Just take that out. Play groups that were so inclined would have been able to play as they wished anyway, but no one could claim that the game was "pushing" players to play as evil characters.

    Not that I think that the game was anyway, but the assassin class wasn't a good look.


    Anyway, this is diverging from the topic at hand, so....
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    Using those four and Tieflings as the starting races and then maybe adding Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Half-Orcs down the line?
    That, to me, is completely backwards.

    I agree with you about incorporating the familiar races first. As I said, it's the hybridizing; the half this, half that, that's annoying. I'd be fine if it was a cross-racial thing, but most of the time it's across-species which is silly and gross; or even inter-entity - which actually does have a rich history in mythology, but usually those were benevolent beings. The major D&D hybrids were all taken from the Natural Evil or Chaotic Evil groups. Which is absurd.
    Most hybrids aren't from evil groups, but some timeline talk can help. Originally there were half-elves (elves are generally good), and half-orcs (orcs are more generally evil). In 2E they removed half-orcs from the core books, but a later campaign setting (Planescape) added Tieflings (part fiend), Aasimar (part celestial), and Genasi (part genie). A pretty even spread. Darksun added half-dwarves (Muls) and half-giants, so again a pretty even spread. (skipping 3E, don't care) In 4E they added dragonborn and they were INSANELY POPULAR. Dragonborn aren't from evil though, dragons in D&D range all alignments. Which reminds me, when in the heck are we ever gonna meet a good dragon in Neverwinter?!!! There are just as many good dragons out there as evil, where are they?!

    Anyway, it was a slow growth of hybrids throughout D&D history. Neverwinter simply picked the core races plus the most popular hybrids to start with, but then, yeah, they kinda forgot to add any more races. Put me in for a Gnome and a Lizard Man!!

    ---

    Re: Satanic Panic,

    Yeah, they could have played it a little more vague, it would have been "smart", but I'm glad they didn't. The rest of the game is built on real world myths like elves and dragons and wizards, and back then the real world mythologies of the Norse, Greeks, Egyptians, etc. were used too, it would have been odd to just declare Judeo-Christian mythology off limits.

    Beyond that, they threw in an occasional pentagram, inverted cross, or "real world" magic symbol, which for some was disturbing, but for others awesome as HAMSTER! For a little context though, back in the 70's, the occult was all the rage. They simply threw in what was going on at the time. And it worked. When the media got ahold of it in the early 80's, D&D sales skyrocketed. It caused a lot of people to get dirty looks and have sit down and have "the talk" with their parents about how they weren't actually devil worshippers, but for most, that made it even cooler.

    Keep in mind that when this stuff was being put in place, these were just regular people working out of their kitchen on a typewriter making all this stuff up, they didn't have focus groups and a "cultural compliance" department. Also, many of them, Gary Gygax included, were quite religious and they never saw it as a problem.

    I probably shouldn't be continuing to derail like this, but I'm glad things were the way they were in the game. When everyone spends their time filing the rough edges off, everything becomes dull.

    ---

    Anyway, back to what really matters...


  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    The BADD people weren't going to be satisfied with any effort TSR made. They weren't trying to be reasonable and there was no point in trying to compromise with them. They complained about spellcasting, portrayal of any non-Christian religion and the very idea of Role Playing. Such people should be ignored, not debated and not offered anything as a compromise.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I would like to see these kinds of beards for females
    The mutton chop beard for example would be perfect for a female dwarf. Wished the photo would show up bigger but its big enough to show that beard at least. Anyways had trouble linking it to the forums.

    imageImage and video hosting by TinyPic" alt="" />

    Post edited by thevampinator on
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I was looking at some of the screen shots of female dwarfs from Jackson's corruption of The Hobbit, and it was nice that he made a sort of attempt, but really he chickened out. Most of them only had sideburns, or dainty whiskers like those seen in the three bottom shots.

    I think the artists who take the bolder approach achieve better results, and their designs look really amazing.

  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I would like to see these kinds of beards for females
    The mutton chop beard for example would be perfect for a female dwarf. Wished the photo would show up bigger but its big enough to show that beard at least. Anyways had trouble linking it to the forums.

    imageImage and video hosting by TinyPic" alt="" />

    I remember clearly that one of the design principles in 4E was to make the game more "female-friendly".

    One obvious example is the use of female pronouns in the rulebooks; "She would roll...", "Her character will...", etc.

    Another was that the female Dwarves would be "pretty", so as to make them a more appealing choice for the ladies, and I am 99.9% certain that this is spelled out in one of the books that they released in advance of 4E that showed some of the artwork and that talked about the ideas behind the new system.

    Bearded ladies are a sideshow thing. If a girl wants to play a dwarf she doesn't need a bunch of grief from the boys about her beard.
    So female dwarves were still stocky, but unlike the males who generally have a squarish shape, they also had curves and no beards*.

    Another separation from Tolkein, which to me is a good thing.

    The default setting for D&D used to be Greyhawk, for 4E became Forgotten Realms (a decision which I didn't like, but not a conversation to be had here), and is whatever it is for 5E, but whatever it is is most certainly not Middle-earth.


    If some DM somewhere wants to play in Middle Earth then they can use their knowledge of that world to design their campaign around, buy the "Adventures in Middle-earth" books, or even track down the old MERP books.

    They should not look to the core rules of D&D expecting them to be a perfect match, and that includes things like race descriptions and whether Dwarven women have beards or not, just as someone that goes over to play LotRO should not expect Dragonborn to be a playable race.
  • wintermurlocwintermurloc Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    For starters they could stop making us jump to pick the sunsword because we are too short.. wonder how halfings are dealing with this
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