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Swarm and Groot Information (PvE)

rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
edited June 2018 in PvE Discussion
Because I have too much free time, because @thefabricant's PC exploded, and because Edgy heard rumors from the Drider server, I checked out information on the two most wanted items from the latest lockbox: the Swarm legendary combat power and the Razorwood pet.

Happy now Edgy? Grammatically correct or not, I don't care if you get tilted, I write however I please.

Swarm:

Yes, the 5% buff and 5% debuff are working correctly.
Normally, I'd trust the Russian server because the Russian server is stupidly good, but I was curious to see if it was just a math error.

Done in Caer Konig on the latest preview patch of the writing, used HR with 1000 fixed damage weapons, no feats and no other gear. Dorrian was naked (because ugly lizard skin), had unspecced all feats, and was using a 1000 damage test weapon.

Clean ACT Version

Exact Numbers


972.99 was the reference hit done without using the swarm.

Then, I applied Swarm and attacked the swarmed target (to check the debuff), then quickly attacked an unswarmed target (to check the buff).

1021.64 was the damage with the buff applied. 1021.64/972.99= 1.050000, which indicates the buff is correct.

1072.71 was the hit with the debuff and the clean ACT picture clearly shows the 105% effectiveness. If you prefer math, if the swarm debuff and buff were both applied, then 1072.71 would be 1.1025x larger than 972.99.

972.99 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 1072.721475. There are some rounding errors, but the damage is close enough to what is observed.

The buff is personal, but the debuff is party wide



105% effectiveness doesn't lie.

(Aside note: to all the GFs out there, this active power mount applies Crushing Pin. I know this because Durian forgot to unspec it during the testing).

The debuff can stack.



What would happen is Dorrian would attack, then apply swarm, then I would follow up and attack, and apply swarm, then either one of us would hit to check if the debuff stacked.

110% effectiveness indicates that the debuffs do indeed stack (1+ (0.05 + 0.05)).

As a personal note, I found the animation to be noticeably quicker to apply than the Tenser's active power, though I do not know how to record gifs and cannot provide an exact comparison.

Groot:

Less information and testing I wanted to do. The main thing I wanted to know is if the 25% CA bonus was affected by the Drow Ambush Tactics boon.

Used a testing GF with no feats, only picked Defense -> Lifesteal -> Drow Ambush Tactics for Underdark boons, a 1000 damage testing weapon, 17 STR, 3 points in Crushing Surge, 11 CHA, and no other gear equipped.

The Razorwood pet is affected by the Drow Ambush Tactics boon.

Clean ACT version

Exact Numbers


The Enforced Threat was to apply a marking effect that grants CA. Then, I attacked once without having the Razorwood equipped. Then, I quickly equipped Groot, and then attacked once more.

Seeing as the hit with Groot yields more damage than the hit without Groot, we can deduce the pet works in some capacity. Now I want to see if the pet is affected by Drow Ambush Tactics.

Ignoring the debuff, look at the base damage of the hit, which was 3483.5. To see if it works, I just need to do some math for comparison.



According to my calculations (which were pretty close to reality), I would only get 3483.5 only if Groot's CA Bonus was multiplied by Drow Ambush Tactics.

Special thanks to @sirjimbofrancis for loaning me the items to test, @dungra34 for assisting me in the testing, and @flensburger99 for providing moral support.
Post edited by rjc9000 on
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Comments

  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Tyvm for providing this info :smile:
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    This Razorwood thing seems like a must have. Now we just gotta wait for a Raccoon companion, a blue/gray hulking human companion that can't understand figures of speech, a green adopted daughter of the embodiement of the Universe companion and a human former demigod companion, and we can just play Guardian of the Galaxy in our Neverwinter world.

    By the way, how sould we read that 25% CA and 2,5% Critsev on Groot?

    Like a "+25" on the CA part of the damage formula (x1,1 via Drow Ambush Tactics) and a "+ 2,5" on the critical severity part of the damage formula?

    As in "When you have Combat Advantage and you are critting, having Groot is like having more than an Erynes of Belial, a Cambion Magus, an epic Dancing Blade and a blue Dancing blade, or five epic Blink Dogs and a blue Dancing Blade" ?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User


    By the way, how sould we read that 25% CA and 2,5% Critsev on Groot?

    Like a "+25" on the CA part of the damage formula (x1,1 via Drow Ambush Tactics) and a "+ 2,5" on the critical severity part of the damage formula?

    Yes, the +25% CA goes towards the CA portion of the formula and the +2.5% Crit Severity adds towards the Crit Severity part of the formula.



    As in "When you have Combat Advantage and you are critting, having Groot is like having more than an Erynes of Belial, a Cambion Magus, an epic Dancing Blade and a blue Dancing blade, or five epic Blink Dogs and a blue Dancing Blade" ?

    You could look at it this way.

    I got lazy and always considered this companion to be the functional equivalent of half a UP Vorpal, since almost everyone is running a Crit build and can get Combat Advantage in some capacity.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Half of unp vorpal, and vorpal's about 18-22% of our damage, and since CA modifier does apply to things crit doesn't... I'd say its pretty effin good
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    Well, I guess my GWF is going to save some money to get this little thing. Half an Unp Vorpal on a companion, definitely can't pass this up.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    This definitely looks like a good companion to get and a legendary mount for all DPS classes to get.

    Now I just need to save up some AD for my CW to get these new toys.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    One quick question. Did anyone test the apocalypse set? Is the dps buff group wide and does it stack? If no one has the dagger, I will farm the 5k coins on my CW (he has the dagger artifact), get the set, ask a friend who knows how to use ATC and post the results, maybe I will even find a second player, who has the set (to test the possibility of stacking the debuff). As a lazy person I would prefer an info, before I do the grind and the work.^^
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    @asterotg I've tested it, and its not working. I will be posting information on all the sets some point this week, I hope.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    viraaal said:

    @asterotg I've tested it, and its not working. I will be posting information on all the sets some point this week, I hope.

    Thank you for the information, you saved me farming 5k of coins.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    Question about the Razorwood pet. My CA is 2k and CA dmg bonus read 9.9% before I equipped Groot. After equipping, those numbers stayed the same. Is this a bug?
    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    Question about the Razorwood pet. My CA is 2k and CA dmg bonus read 9.9% before I equipped Groot. After equipping, those numbers stayed the same. Is this a bug?

    Not a bug.

    Groot adds 25% Combat Advantage damage to the entire CA damage category in the damage formula.

    Note that the Combat Advantage stat and Groot are single components of the Combat Advantage category in the damage formula.

    The formula looks something like (assuming you have Drow Ambush Tactics, which you should, because the alternative is lolregen):

    (1.1)*(0.15+ (% from CA pets like Groot) + (% CA from Special Stat) + (% from CHA))

    If you aren't scared by the arithmetic, you can read more about the Combat Advantage formula over on Janne's website.

    http://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics/ca
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    nl54#3191 said:

    Question about the Razorwood pet. My CA is 2k and CA dmg bonus read 9.9% before I equipped Groot. After equipping, those numbers stayed the same. Is this a bug?

    Not a bug.

    Groot adds 25% Combat Advantage damage to the entire CA damage category in the damage formula.

    Note that the Combat Advantage stat and Groot are single components of the Combat Advantage category in the damage formula.

    The formula looks something like (assuming you have Drow Ambush Tactics, which you should, because the alternative is lolregen):

    (1.1)*(0.15+ (% from CA pets like Groot) + (% CA from Special Stat) + (% from CHA))

    If you aren't scared by the arithmetic, you can read more about the Combat Advantage formula over on Janne's website.

    http://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics/ca

    Thanks for the info. :)

    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    Fantastic! Thank you @rjc9000 very much for doing the testing, and sharing this with everyone.
  • someonediessomeonedies Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    So.. Is it worth to replace Fire Archon by Groot?
    Rimuru?
    Dead 🔪
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User

    So.. Is it worth to replace Fire Archon by Groot?

    Yes.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    So.. Is it worth to replace Fire Archon by Groot?

    Yes.
    What if you are using a vorpal, still true?

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User


    What if you are using a vorpal, still true?

    Yes.

    Using Janne's Crit Severity+CA calculator, the DPS increase of just +25% CA will rival that of a Fire Archon (since that was the question first asked) for most realistic DPS increases.



    Even if you use a worst case example of Combat HR using Skirmisher's, Squash Soup, Wild Storm, UP Vorpal, Half Orc racial, and an average CHA of 20, then you're looking at ~245% combined CA/Crit Severity bonus before Groot. Adding Groot's 25% CA bonus alone which would put Groot at a compareable level to the Fire Archon's bonus.

    75 (base) + 55 (UP Vorpal) + 50 (Skirmisher's) + 5 (Half Orc) + 7.5 (Flask of Potency) + 10 (Wild Storm) + 5% (Squash Soup) + [1.1 (Drow Ambush Tactics)* (15 (base CA bonus) + 9 (most players' CA special stat) + 10 (20 CHA bonus))]= 244.9% .

    If you factor in the Archon bonus, then the Fire Archon would begin to pull ahead in that extreme example. I do not know how the Archon bonuses are added to the overall damage formula, so I cannot talk about at what point Groot would pull ahead with (x) amount of Archon bonuses.
  • reefriednunt#3177 reefriednunt Member Posts: 246 Arc User
    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited August 2018

    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger

    Roughly speaking, yes.
    In my opinion, razorwood + earth + air are the staple. tiger is the summon. Last one can be swapped out depending on content.
    • Fire for mid-geared groups engaging in longer fights, because the bonus is most effective in longer fights (if boss is less than 50% health a while) and synergizes nicely with other archons.
    • Siege for general-purpose
    • Content or status dependent (Alpha compy for Chult, war boar if marking build, Batiri runt for bosses, etc.)
    Post edited by dupeks on
  • trevor#8542 trevor Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger

    Roughly speaking, yes.
    In my opinion, razorwood + earth + air are the staple. tiger is the summon. Last one can be swapped out depending on content.
    • Fire for mid-geared groups engaging in longer fights, because the bonus is most effective in longer fights (if boss is
    • Siege for general-purpose
    • Content or status dependent (Alpha compy for Chult, war boar if marking build, etc.)
    what about the Batiri runt it gives 5% damage on bosses wouldnt that be the same as the war boar but without having to mark him ?
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    dupeks said:

    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger

    Roughly speaking, yes.
    In my opinion, razorwood + earth + air are the staple. tiger is the summon. Last one can be swapped out depending on content.
    • Fire for mid-geared groups engaging in longer fights, because the bonus is most effective in longer fights (if boss is
    • Siege for general-purpose
    • Content or status dependent (Alpha compy for Chult, war boar if marking build, etc.)
    what about the Batiri runt it gives 5% damage on bosses wouldnt that be the same as the war boar but without having to mark him ?
    Updated. I guess I was throwing that into the etc. category but you're right to call it out as one of the better options because max buffs mostly only matter on bosses.
  • trevor#8542 trevor Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    dupeks said:

    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger

    Roughly speaking, yes.
    In my opinion, razorwood + earth + air are the staple. tiger is the summon. Last one can be swapped out depending on content.
    • Fire for mid-geared groups engaging in longer fights, because the bonus is most effective in longer fights (if boss is
    • Siege for general-purpose
    • Content or status dependent (Alpha compy for Chult, war boar if marking build, etc.)
    what about the Batiri runt it gives 5% damage on bosses wouldnt that be the same as the war boar but without having to mark him ?
    Updated. I guess I was throwing that into the etc. category but you're right to call it out as one of the better options because max buffs mostly only matter on bosses.
    I was just curious myself ive asked a few buddies why they rather use the war boar over the Batiri and never really got a answer.
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    dupeks said:

    dupeks said:

    So for most dps builds are you guys switching out the fire or the siege, for the razorwood?....assuming most builds are running air, earth, fire, siege, and tiger

    Roughly speaking, yes.
    In my opinion, razorwood + earth + air are the staple. tiger is the summon. Last one can be swapped out depending on content.
    • Fire for mid-geared groups engaging in longer fights, because the bonus is most effective in longer fights (if boss is
    • Siege for general-purpose
    • Content or status dependent (Alpha compy for Chult, war boar if marking build, etc.)
    what about the Batiri runt it gives 5% damage on bosses wouldnt that be the same as the war boar but without having to mark him ?
    Updated. I guess I was throwing that into the etc. category but you're right to call it out as one of the better options because max buffs mostly only matter on bosses.
    I was just curious myself ive asked a few buddies why they rather use the war boar over the Batiri and never really got a answer.
    My only additional comment is that certain status-dependent bonuses (especially those that depend on what is going on with your target, rather than the map you're on or some feature of your character) might not always work perfectly with procs or entity powers.

    Admittedly I haven't tested this recently so it's kind of pure speculation at this point. And I actually think that the devs made a decent push to clean some of this stuff up a bit in the last year. But given the history of this game and proc interactions, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some issues with certain builds. It certainly could contribute to hesitancy / perception.
  • akuvar#2397 akuvar Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    So I just got a Groot dropped from a lockbox and I'm temptede to equip him. I'm running a ProtOP though, do I need the Groot, or should I sell him and get something better for my class?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User

    So I just got a Groot dropped from a lockbox and I'm temptede to equip him. I'm running a ProtOP though, do I need the Groot, or should I sell him and get something better for my class?

    Yes if you plan to run Protection OP as DPS, assuming you can find some way to get Combat Advantage (pet/ally/positioning/etc.).

    No if you play Devotion, or prefer defensive tactics.

    If you have any alt as a DPS class, it would be worth it to stuff the Razorwood on said DPS alt. If that's not an option, you could always dump it on the AH and let Adam Smith take care of things for you.
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