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Makos’ storyline **SPOILERS**

shadrakt2shadrakt2 Member Posts: 148 Arc User
The devs seem to consider Makos’ story concluded at the end of Fane, but I’m still confused, so if anyone could clarify I would appreciate it.

He died in SKT, but now it’s apparent that he had a phylactery, so he’s back to life as a lich? And that turned him from a kind altruistic hero into a ruthless, callous, power-hungry <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? Is that typical when one turns into a lich?

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Answers

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    I think he was a lich before SKT, probably for longer than we've known him.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • shadrakt2shadrakt2 Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I brought Makos some lich lore after Fane, and didn’t see any new dialogue options, but I’ll double check. I’m most surprised that there seems to be no explanation as to the sudden change of personality, whether he’s been a lich this whole time or not.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    His attitude becomes more withdrawn and sullen upon meeting him in Chult. It may be that this is because he knows his secret will be guessed soon and is attempting to distance himself as a way to dull the pain of being rejected or even in conflict with his friends.



    It should also be noted that the person responsible for storyline through TCA left for another studio. New creative teams often end up with different takes on existing characters.

    Makos Lives!
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Red glowing eyes = he's alive.

    Blue glowing eyes = he's a lich.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • shadrakt2shadrakt2 Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    Thanks guys. I did go talk to them both, and it did sort of resolve that storyline. Still kinda lame that his personality did a complete 180, but it's cool. :)
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,347 Arc User
    IIRC becoming a lich involves an elaborate ritual. Perhaps the details of the ritual had something to do with it? It seems like he's undergone an alignment change. From what I gather, he had started preparing for it during the Maze Engine storyline, which is why Drizzt became concerned at the end of it. It's possible that he was ready at the end, which would explain why he wanted to be alone while he destroyed the Maze Engine. However, when Xuna points out that he was consistently late, that implies that he had more preparations to do.

    I think his storyline is far from over. Celeste explains at the end of Svardborg that he had been struggling with the constant efforts of his father to gain control over him, to the point that the others were planning to take action. I doubt that a devil would let something like lichdom stand in his way. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his father did his best to manipulate others into returning Makos back to life just so he would have another crack at gaining control over him.
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  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Alignment change? He was Neutral Evil to begin with. Evil is evil.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    He was already NE? Looking him up now I see references to NE, but they are also up to date with him being a lich now as well. I'm a little skeptical of him always being NE because he and Celeste (Lawful Good) seemed so close before. Seems like an odd pairing. I always thought of him as True Neutral.

    ---

    Still, I wouldn't say his personality took a 180. He seems to have become a bit colder and place less value on the "living condition", but he was always a coolly distant pragmatist.

    Generally, the transformation to undeath takes an evil toll on the alignment, regardless of the method, though some are worse than others. Becoming a Lich is one of the less hardcore. A few very strong-willed or virtuous types can resist, but it still remains a struggle.

    As for Makos's father, I don't think he was after Makos physically, but was after his soul. In that case, a normal death for Makos would have likely given him what he wanted. Lichdom would certainly put a wrinkle in those plans though.

    The path to Lichdom has varied over the years and through editions, but this is the version I'm thinking they went with:
    - Prepare the phylactery, perform the ritual, and put a piece of your soul in it (after Underdark).
    - If you survive that, you stay alive, but are somewhat weakened (~SKT).
    - After that, whenever you die, your soul will flee to your phylactery (end of SKT).
    - From there, you regenerate or take over a new body and have transformed into a Lich (before Chult).
    - After that, you have to periodically sacrifice living beings to sustain yourself.

    Maintaining your unlife at the point requires some pretty evil behavior, but the process of becoming one doesn't, really. Now, back in 1st Edition (from Dragon Magazine), the process of becoming a Lich was really bad news, and only evil HAMSTER would even consider doing THAT. After that though, no maintenance!
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I for one, want to have a boss battle against Makos in the future. That would be awesome. Not saying we have to kill him, but basically it shows there is no 100% good or evil in the universe. Nothing is pure, we make a decision and stand by it, right or wrong we call them ethics. Makos doesn't view himself as being "wrong" but as I see it, he is leaning into elitism. This was always part of his nature, if you read his biography from the developers. The people he deems unworthy must die or get out of the way. Celeste is bent on purity or perfection (which is part of her religion) she would never sit down and discuss it with Makos and she made herself clear on that matter. How it works from here is up to Cryptic and WotC. But I assume it is more in the hands of Cryptic because they created his character.

    EDIT: link to biography
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9782963-developer-blog:-famous-faces
    Near bottom of this page.
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  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    IIRC the Forgotten Realms has had Good elven liches, perhaps from Myth Drannor. I only remember seeing a reference to them, however.

    ETA Google provided the name, Baelnorn, an elven undead similar to a lich. The differences are probably great enough to make them irrelevant to Makos though.
    Post edited by pitshade on
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    I vaguely recall a paladin lich, but thought that was from Greyhawk.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    There is also a type of non-evil lich called an Archlich, but there generally hasn't been a lot of information about them. Baelnorn could be considered a special type of Elven Archlich. I would assume Archliches don't need to sacrifice the lifeforce of others to sustain themselves.

    Celeste accused Makos of having to do that himself, which he tried to rationalize instead of deny. Effectively, that was an admission that he is now a "Lich" Lich, not an Archlich, and is therefore evil now.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    am i the only one that thinks he is on a chaotic good aligment.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Trading one life for another is definitely on the "evil" side of the balance.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    Everything I found so far points at him being Neutral Evil. But this is just a game system trying to "pigeon hole" a character's psychological make up. Good people "in real life" do evil deeds for what they believe to be the greater good. Personally I am more confused by Minsc and his lack of action when Makos kills the caged batiri in the cut scene about saving Celeste. According to his reasoning this would have been enough reason for him to attack Makos. He sees evil and must crush it. His alignment has changed from Neutral Good to Chaotic Good along with his character arc.
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  • melindenmelinden Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    I know we have some evidence that Makos is trying to save his own life/freedom but I do like stories that explore the question, "What would you do to save people you love?" Maybe make a deal with a lich? Don't you sacrifice more when you sell your soul instead of your life (which is sort of cheap in D&D when you can buy it back with enough diamonds)?

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  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    Hmm, something just occurred to me. When we first beat Ras Nsi in HoC, Acererak decided to restore Celeste completely. At the time, this was bizarre and completely unexplainable. Makos had disappeared for a time by then and never showed back up until Omu. What was he doing all that time?

    Perhaps Makos was off interceding on Celeste's behalf with Acererak. Boy, that would be a heck of a mic drop if tensions really heat up between him and Celeste down the road, then he's all like "Oh yeah, btw, you would have stayed a zombie if it wasn't for me and what I did, which I was only able to do because I became a lich."

    *Mic drop, exit stage left*
  • therealprotextherealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    pterias said:

    Hmm, something just occurred to me. When we first beat Ras Nsi in HoC, Acererak decided to restore Celeste completely. At the time, this was bizarre and completely unexplainable. Makos had disappeared for a time by then and never showed back up until Omu. What was he doing all that time?

    Perhaps Makos was off interceding on Celeste's behalf with Acererak. Boy, that would be a heck of a mic drop if tensions really heat up between him and Celeste down the road, then he's all like "Oh yeah, btw, you would have stayed a zombie if it wasn't for me and what I did, which I was only able to do because I became a lich."

    *Mic drop, exit stage left*

    Her answer would most likely be something like "You MADE me a zombie in the first place! Don't you dare to pretend to be a good-doer when all you actually want is to relieve your conscience!"

    Seriously, after learning that Makos made a deal with Acererak my very first thought was "Ah, that's why Celeste was restored." I thought that was out of question...
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    You know... @pterias brough up a nice point...
    Why would Acererak be that "benevolent"?
    Makos does mention a deal with him to have certain "privelages" or is it "accomodations"?

    And.. let us not forget there is another lich in Omu..... our beloved Valindra is sneaking about in another form...
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Another form? Valindra likes to hide behind the illusion of what she looked like alive.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    Well.. we have only seen her in lich form in the game.. so some people might not realize its her.

    But.... I thought Valindra was originally a moon elf... but she looked more like a sun elf in Omu.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Watch the intro movie. You get to see Val and then she lets the illusion drift away showing her current form.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • wd1966wd1966 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 64 Arc User
    All valid points of view, I see.

    The quintessential thrust is choice. When Makos had the spat with Xuna in Bryn Shandar, we didn't get any sound bites there, but Makos was still pacifying Xuna. With the given nature of tieflings, there are a couple of avenues for story content stepping out of Chult. Naturally/unnaturally, tieflings have always caused uneasiness and distrust to their environments. The tiefling blood pacts open up for some ideas in choosing some interesting

    Given the nature of the Neverwinter Vanguard, Makos alignment being True Neutral shifting to Chaotic Neutral fits well. An adventure area with Makos as the pivot battling with Acererak, or regaining Celeste's trust would make for an awesome module.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,499 Arc User
    Makos not being a lich would help him regain Celeste's trust.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Watch the intro movie. You get to see Val and then she lets the illusion drift away showing her current form.

    I forgot all about that... pity I did because it was a truly awesome intro...
  • melindenmelinden Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    pterias said:



    Perhaps Makos was off interceding on Celeste's behalf with Acererak. Boy, that would be a heck of a mic drop if tensions really heat up between him and Celeste down the road, then he's all like "Oh yeah, btw, you would have stayed a zombie if it wasn't for me and what I did, which I was only able to do because I became a lich."

    *Mic drop, exit stage left*

    He is pretty direct about stating this in his conversation with you in Omu after Fane. You do need to select all the conversation options to get there.

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