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Multiplicative Buffs are distorting the End-Game Party Compositions
vordayn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
I remember the Developers of this game redesigning the mechanics in Mod 6 in order to promote the DPS + Healer + Tank trinity. Currently, random queues insist that we have 3 DPS, 1 Healer and 1 Tank.
However, why I am only seeing “1 DPS + 4 Support” or “2 DPS + 3 Support” party compositions in specific end-game content? This is probably going to be unpopular, but I think that the multiplicative buffs are the reason. Why fill the party slot with a DPS character if a hybrid DPS/Support or pure Support character will bolster total party DPS better?
Let me explain with the current king of the single-target DPS meta, figuratively and literally, the GF Tank.
Let's take a look at the mechanics of the class, in particular a Conqueror DPS build:
General Feats:
Strength focus (3/3): Increase the effectiveness of Strength by 5/10/15%.
Powerful attack (5/5): Increase the damage of your Encounter and At-Will powers by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Conqueror Feats:
Wrathful Warrior (5/5): When you have Temporary Hitpoints you deal 3/6/9/12/15% more damage.
Staggering Challenge (5/5): Gain 4/8/12/16/20% damage bonus to Griffon's Wrath when the target has recently been struck by Staggering Challenge empowered Griffon's Wrath. Additionally your damage bonus from Knight's Challenge is increased by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Tactical Superiority (5/5): You deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage and Combat Superiority grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% damage.
Reckless Attacker (1/1): When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Ataccker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Protector Feats:
Staying Power (5/5): Weapon Master's Strike now also reduces your targets Mitigations to your Encounter powers by 2/4/6/8/10%,
Tactitian Feats:
Crushing Pin (5/5): Your control powers cause the target to take 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage for 3 seconds.
At-Wills:
Weapon Master's Strike: Briefly increases the damage the target takes from your At-Wills (30% at Rank 4).
Class Features:
Shield Warrior's Wrath: When you successfully Block an attack, you gain 1% increased damage stacking up to 5 times (20% at Rank 4 and full stacks).
Combat Superiority: When a foe hits you, you deal 5% additional damage to them and they deal 5% less damage to you for 8 seconds (8% more damage at Rank 4)
Encounters
Knight's Challenge: When challenging a foe, you and your target deal double damage to each other and half damage to anyone else. When used against other players, you deal 50% more damage instead of double damage.
Into the Fray: Temporarily increases your party's Run Speed, Action Point gain and Damage. In addition all party members receive a small portion of your Max HP as Temp HP. Recovers 15% of your Stamina over 8 Seconds. (20% damage buff for the party at Rank 4)
Griffon's Wrath: You lash out with a heavy overhand blow that briefly Stuns your foe. This ability has 3 charges. (Note synergy with Staggering Challenge, Conqueror Feat)
Commander's Strike: You strike your foe and command your allies to attack. For the next 5 seconds, the next Encounter attack each ally makes against a Marked foe deals +10% bonus damage per rank (40% at Rank 4)
Tab Mechanic
Mark: Your target will have lowered Damage Resistance (20% debuff for self, 8% for allies) and you build twice as much threat when striking them.
Example:
Say your GF has 20 Strength (+10% damage), with Strength Focus at 3/3 this is increased by 15%.
And you have the feats, powers and features listed above.
Combat against a single target would be something like this: Mark, ITF (procs temp HP, procs Wrathful warrior), Knight's Challenge, Shield and Block 5 attacks (procs Shield Warrior's Wrath, Combat Superiority, Reckless attacker), use Griffon's Wrath.
What happens to the personal buffs summation in the damage calculation for Griffon's Wrath is this:
Product of Buffs =(Strength Focus)*(Powerful Attack)*(Wrathful Warrior)*(Tactical Superiority)*(Reckless Attacker)*(Crushing Pin)*(Shield Warrior's Wrath)*(Combat Superiority+Tactical Superiority)*(Knight's Challenge+Staggering Challenge)*(Into the Fray)*(Griffon's Wrath+Staggering Challenge)
= 1.015*1.1*1.15*1.05*1.25*1.1*1.2*1.13*2.1*1.2*1.2
= 7.601
Then you calculate the debuffs in the asymptotic formula:
Sum of Debuffs = (Staying Power)+(Weapon Masters Strike)+(Mark) = 10+30+20% = 60%
Using the Debuff function generated by Janne, the Damage Multiplier is 58.06%=1.58
Hence total multiplicative damage
= 7.601* 1.58 = 12.01
Now throw in other buff multipliers from gear, artifacts, mounts, other players' then you've got yourself a beast of a weapon, as the buffing powers are all multiplicative. A high base damage with high self buffing/debuffing powers will outperform any lesser builds and or classes that cannot reach the base multiplicative damage that this class can.
Say we have a DO DC + AC DC in the party (just as an example, but you can substitute the class for any other unique buff/support class)
DODC
Terrifying Insight: +20% damage
Empowered Break the Spirit 3/3: +21% damage
Divine Glow: +12.5% buff +17.5% debuff
Prophecy of Doom, unempowered: +12.5% debuff
ACDC
Empowered Forgemaster's Flame 3/3: +15%
Empowered Exalt 3/3: +27%
Multiply our buffs
= 7.601*1.2*1.21*1.125*1.15*1.27 = 18.13
Sum our debuffs
= 60%+12.5%+17.5%=90%; Damage multiplier = 84.17%
Total Multiplicative damage with two DCs:
= 18.13*1.84
= 33.36
As you can see, anything which multiplies the buffs will result in ridiculous numbers.
Add in a Mythic Soul Sight Crystal?
For 10 seconds damage to the target is increased by 50%, hence the GFs damage for that particular Griffon's Wrath (once all the buffs are aligned) will be multiplied by 50.
Add in more debuffs, even though it is an asymptotic function, the damage multiplier will increase.
What is the solution to the 4 support 1 dps meta? This may be unpopular, but I think a start would becapping self / team buffs making buffs additive. Then you wouldn’t need so many buffers in a party. But if you were to do so, I think there must be a corresponding decrease in content difficulty. This would require some fine-tuning indeed.
edited Brilliant Divine Glow = 12.5% buff to allies, not 17.5% (thanks @meirami)
However, why I am only seeing “1 DPS + 4 Support” or “2 DPS + 3 Support” party compositions in specific end-game content? This is probably going to be unpopular, but I think that the multiplicative buffs are the reason. Why fill the party slot with a DPS character if a hybrid DPS/Support or pure Support character will bolster total party DPS better?
Let me explain with the current king of the single-target DPS meta, figuratively and literally, the GF Tank.
Let's take a look at the mechanics of the class, in particular a Conqueror DPS build:
General Feats:
Strength focus (3/3): Increase the effectiveness of Strength by 5/10/15%.
Powerful attack (5/5): Increase the damage of your Encounter and At-Will powers by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Conqueror Feats:
Wrathful Warrior (5/5): When you have Temporary Hitpoints you deal 3/6/9/12/15% more damage.
Staggering Challenge (5/5): Gain 4/8/12/16/20% damage bonus to Griffon's Wrath when the target has recently been struck by Staggering Challenge empowered Griffon's Wrath. Additionally your damage bonus from Knight's Challenge is increased by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Tactical Superiority (5/5): You deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage and Combat Superiority grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% damage.
Reckless Attacker (1/1): When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Ataccker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Protector Feats:
Staying Power (5/5): Weapon Master's Strike now also reduces your targets Mitigations to your Encounter powers by 2/4/6/8/10%,
Tactitian Feats:
Crushing Pin (5/5): Your control powers cause the target to take 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage for 3 seconds.
At-Wills:
Weapon Master's Strike: Briefly increases the damage the target takes from your At-Wills (30% at Rank 4).
Class Features:
Shield Warrior's Wrath: When you successfully Block an attack, you gain 1% increased damage stacking up to 5 times (20% at Rank 4 and full stacks).
Combat Superiority: When a foe hits you, you deal 5% additional damage to them and they deal 5% less damage to you for 8 seconds (8% more damage at Rank 4)
Encounters
Knight's Challenge: When challenging a foe, you and your target deal double damage to each other and half damage to anyone else. When used against other players, you deal 50% more damage instead of double damage.
Into the Fray: Temporarily increases your party's Run Speed, Action Point gain and Damage. In addition all party members receive a small portion of your Max HP as Temp HP. Recovers 15% of your Stamina over 8 Seconds. (20% damage buff for the party at Rank 4)
Griffon's Wrath: You lash out with a heavy overhand blow that briefly Stuns your foe. This ability has 3 charges. (Note synergy with Staggering Challenge, Conqueror Feat)
Commander's Strike: You strike your foe and command your allies to attack. For the next 5 seconds, the next Encounter attack each ally makes against a Marked foe deals +10% bonus damage per rank (40% at Rank 4)
Tab Mechanic
Mark: Your target will have lowered Damage Resistance (20% debuff for self, 8% for allies) and you build twice as much threat when striking them.
Example:
Say your GF has 20 Strength (+10% damage), with Strength Focus at 3/3 this is increased by 15%.
And you have the feats, powers and features listed above.
Combat against a single target would be something like this: Mark, ITF (procs temp HP, procs Wrathful warrior), Knight's Challenge, Shield and Block 5 attacks (procs Shield Warrior's Wrath, Combat Superiority, Reckless attacker), use Griffon's Wrath.
What happens to the personal buffs summation in the damage calculation for Griffon's Wrath is this:
Product of Buffs =(Strength Focus)*(Powerful Attack)*(Wrathful Warrior)*(Tactical Superiority)*(Reckless Attacker)*(Crushing Pin)*(Shield Warrior's Wrath)*(Combat Superiority+Tactical Superiority)*(Knight's Challenge+Staggering Challenge)*(Into the Fray)*(Griffon's Wrath+Staggering Challenge)
= 1.015*1.1*1.15*1.05*1.25*1.1*1.2*1.13*2.1*1.2*1.2
= 7.601
Then you calculate the debuffs in the asymptotic formula:
Sum of Debuffs = (Staying Power)+(Weapon Masters Strike)+(Mark) = 10+30+20% = 60%
Using the Debuff function generated by Janne, the Damage Multiplier is 58.06%=1.58
Hence total multiplicative damage
= 7.601* 1.58 = 12.01
Now throw in other buff multipliers from gear, artifacts, mounts, other players' then you've got yourself a beast of a weapon, as the buffing powers are all multiplicative. A high base damage with high self buffing/debuffing powers will outperform any lesser builds and or classes that cannot reach the base multiplicative damage that this class can.
Say we have a DO DC + AC DC in the party (just as an example, but you can substitute the class for any other unique buff/support class)
DODC
Terrifying Insight: +20% damage
Empowered Break the Spirit 3/3: +21% damage
Divine Glow: +12.5% buff +17.5% debuff
Prophecy of Doom, unempowered: +12.5% debuff
ACDC
Empowered Forgemaster's Flame 3/3: +15%
Empowered Exalt 3/3: +27%
Multiply our buffs
= 7.601*1.2*1.21*1.125*1.15*1.27 = 18.13
Sum our debuffs
= 60%+12.5%+17.5%=90%; Damage multiplier = 84.17%
Total Multiplicative damage with two DCs:
= 18.13*1.84
= 33.36
As you can see, anything which multiplies the buffs will result in ridiculous numbers.
Add in a Mythic Soul Sight Crystal?
For 10 seconds damage to the target is increased by 50%, hence the GFs damage for that particular Griffon's Wrath (once all the buffs are aligned) will be multiplied by 50.
Add in more debuffs, even though it is an asymptotic function, the damage multiplier will increase.
What is the solution to the 4 support 1 dps meta? This may be unpopular, but I think a start would be
edited Brilliant Divine Glow = 12.5% buff to allies, not 17.5% (thanks @meirami)
Vordon CW ‡ Vordayn DC ‡ Axel Wolfric GWF ‡ Logain SW ‡ Gawyn GF ‡ Galad OP ‡ Aspen Darkfire HR ‡ Min TR
Post edited by vordayn on
4
Comments
Also, in your calculations, the AC/DC is empowering both Exaltation and Forgemaster's Flame. In practice, it's tougher to keep both up 100% of the time when the ACDC has also Anointed Army and Blessing of Battle to cast and divinity stacks to build. Some of the rare places where it's doable mid-fight is when a boss (like Ras Nsi) is damage immune, but targettable, and you build your empowerment in advance. Not sure if empowering both in the calculation is therefore intentional.
A few incongruities stand out to me as well:
- all the buff/debuffs you pointed out are essentially backwards, aren't they? - seems logical that a tank's perks be defensive in nature instead of offensive.
- the three dps rule isn't enforced, as in teams don't actually have to include 3 dps classes?
- and wouldn't it make a lot of sense to ensure actual dps classes such as the scourge warlock out-dps - and I mean massively out-dps the other classes?
- also the conspicuous absence of foes that are specifically or partially aerial negates the need for classes that specialize in ranged attacks, doesn't it?
I bet there are plenty of other little details that factor into the dearth of diversity in parties.
Also, you can't have a ranged class do more damage than a melee class. It works on tabletop, but not here. Tabletop is 100% organized and you have to make content available for both premades AND random groups - it's a much less controlled environment. In a video game, the farther you are from damage, the less likely you're to die. So if say a CW had the highest damage (drawing a parallel to tabletop), they could just sit back holding left click and AFKing, while TRs for instance would get their face punched in. No one would ever pick a melee class because you'd be the most likely to die, and least likely to do a significant portion of the damage.
A ranged unit typically prioritizes offense over defense.
There are always units that blur the lines, but generally are not as effective in defense or offense as a unit that specializes in one or the other.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is most of the time - except in video games and in the movies,
I can't accept the argument that since the melee unit has to face the enemy head on, it deserves to get the highest dps. It's designed to meet the enemy head on. That's the very nature of its being. In Neverwinter, GFs and OPs are by no means the most likely to die. There's supposed to be an inherent trade off involved. You want defense? You have to give up some offense. You want offense? You have to give up some defense. Here with the Guardian Fighter, players have found a way to have their cake and eat it too, and then have everyone else's cake and eat that as well!
I also can't accept that since ranged attackers don't stand toe to toe with an enemy, they don't deserve a high dps. That's silly. Generally speaking, ranged attackers - can't stand toe to toe against an enemy. They're simply not designed for it. Their very existence hinges upon the ability to unleash a lot of damage very quickly, and then either fall back behind defensive units, or run for their lives before a retaliatory strike obliterates them. Even so, there are a lot of SWs who go chin to chin with mobs and bosses just to maximize their dps, and plenty of DCs who are forced to get in close with the tanks to make certain powers viable.
Also, tabletop D&D is far, far less predictable than any rpg video game. Ask any DM. You never know what kind of stunts players are going to pull. You spend a good bit of your planning time trying to imagine all the different courses they might choose, and even then you spend half the quest/campaign improvising because the players still manage to concoct a course of action that you never would have dreamed of. Also, there is always a very real danger that the characters seated around that table are going to be dead by the night's end. All it takes is one stupid decision. And even then, all it takes is one stroke of inspiration to turn events back in their favor again. There's most definitely not much sense of control - certainly not 100%. The only reason I brought up tabletop was to explain my perspective on class roles. And since you mentioned it - for most classes in tabletop - aside from something that specializes in range attacks such as a Ranger, ranged attacks usually deal less damage than melee.
But following that same line of reasoning, what should deal more damage, a broad sword or a magical bomb? And to them I'd say welcome to the club, only the rest of us are just glass.
As I said, it doesn't bother me if the fighting class deals such great damage - I doubt most players/pickup teams can pull it off anyway, I'd just appreciate it if the classes that are supposed to excel at dps....excelled at dps.
The problem of buffs running out of control is not a new problem to MMOs. Neverwinter in the past has had issues of this. The issue of removing specific unobtainable gear sets such as High Vizier come to mind (removing things straight up is not a good way of handling balance). We also had a potion nerf so we can only stack so many (I believe this was a good step in the right direction). I would propose that we also limit how many buffs can be stacked on 1 individual. Perhaps 10 offensive and 10 defensive? This would include potions/auras etc... I believe this would promote a more reasonable group comp that wasn't a 4 support 1 meta. I'm just brainstorming and throwing ideas out there.
I'm not a big fan of nerfs in general, but being able to destroy Avatar of Orcus in 1 rotation is not balanced or intended by developers, period. There is a huge difference between running content fast, and just straight up abusive over-optimization. Players will find the way to be the most efficient, DPS GF is a good exmaple. However developers need to look at WHY things are broken that way, rather than just nerfing DPS GF. I think overall that will lead to a more balanced game, and obscene buff stacking is a good spot to continue what they started with potions.
P.S. I have a DPS GF at 8k IL, so I am familiar with rotation/mechanics, but haven't personally run endgame content as one.
Also, @frogwalloper#6494, @grrouper, @gromovnipljesak#8234, I am seeing your point of view. A cap would not be desirable as it puts an artificial ceiling on things.
I think @pterias had a good idea when he brought up additive buffs. Maybe a mix of additive and multiplicative, or just outright additive with diminishing return (like debuffs)? Idk, just putting forth some suggestions.
They need to calculate it so that having another support class in the group will be equal (or as close to equal) as another DPS, but that having no buffs in the group is not ideal.
This can achieved by having the combined (additive) buffing capabilities of the subsequent buffers (after the primary buffer) being equal to [x/n], where x is the total number of available "DPS spots" (i.e. in a party of 5, this is 3 spots), and n is actual DPS in the group (after accounting for the tank and supports). So, for example, if you have "1 tank + 2 dps + 2 support", the secondary support should only multiply the total buffs by [3/2] = 1.5. If you have "1 tank + 1 dps + 3 support", the combined buffing capabilities of support 2 & 3 (they add together, then multiply the whole) should be [3/1] = 3. This equalises the substitution of a support for a DPS, hopefully making them an equal option.
To explain the idea - all the buffs atm are basically - x=baseline damage; y=buffed damage, y=x*buff #1*buff #2*buff #3 and so on - so if the damage is 1, and every buff is say 50%, you get y=1*1.5*1.5*1.5, what's 3.375* higher damage output compared to baseline. Instead, make buffs additive, so y=x+buff #1+buff #2 +buff #3; y=1+0.5+0.5+0.5 etc etc. The baseline damage stays the same, so the buffed damage doesnt get amplified by other buffs. The decrease would be immense at high levels, and in return, health pools would have to decrease, or the buffs would have to get... well, buffed, because with 3 buffs it doesn't seem like a lot, but with 10-12 buffs, and if we assume every buff increases damage by 50% (absurd yea but easier to do math with), you get 129.75* more damage, while when additive, it would only increase your DPS 7*. This is obviously exaggerated into oblivion, but just so y'all get my point. This would be a radical change tho, and it probably won't happen. Simply nerfing the buffs won't do us any good when there's 50 billion sources of them, and adding stuff like soulsight doesn't help.
But before all that, let's just wait for the slight TR buff that has been confirmed in M14, and for them to finally buff CW for once and fix buglock. It's a bigger sin to put the innocent into a bad position than to remove ones guilty.
There doesn't need to be pretty much any class nerf, there needs to be a class buff (ones that need it ye?) and overall buff nerf (lul). Make people rely more on self-buffs. That way you're gonna see more interesting party compositions. Because, now to be a good DPS, you only need good supports and a pair of working hands. Make people rely less on supports and more on self-buff uptime.
Finishing the class balance would kinda fix this.
You talk as if it has even been started and made any real headway as i said there is nothing that can really be done one class is always going to out shine others. All it will do is change the games meta make some happy and tick others off. There is no win win if it comes to nerfing a class if it is there DPS there item level or there buffs.
The devs keep adding more ways for players to self heal ever mod more life steal more HP new gear always has that same. It is not the buffs but the stats "like life steal" they allow players to have that makes healing useless.
"Silly Subject" But a 2D6 weapon "Broadsword" will out perform any other weapon in D&D. People have done that math and the numbers add up from the dice. Well you say magical arrow well why not a magical broad sword ".
I know there are some new players here... but you ain't one of them. I know for a fact that you were active on the forums when the devs announced the class balance changes to the SW, HR, and DC. If you chose not to follow those news posts, that's someone else's problem. And if you find a nice shiny surface & peer deep within... you will see someone.
Bringing a healing-focused DC is inefficient when the aforementioned classes can comfortably keep a party topped off while buffing and dealing damage simultaneously, unlike DCs, who can't compete with that kind of HPS output without slotting healing-only encounter powers and sacrificing buffs/debuffs and DPS. The current meta not being keen on "healers" has less to do with healing not being valued and more to do with the fact that most parties are already getting a ton of it between the support OP or Templock output and the healing the DCs generate with Divine Glow and/or Repurpose Soul.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
In an ideal setting and the way I see the classes which in no way reflects my proposition for the changes, this is purely hypothetical
- Guardian Fighter should be aggro master to a point where no other class has as many powers for aggro manipulation. They should build health, defense and recovery in order to be useful. Their set of choices should be Lifedrinker enchants and possible tenebrous enchants. Their attacks should be extremely slow, but effective against enemies who then become stunned.
- Great weapon fighter should be a single target expert who can be played with various choices. Their primary point of interest to build should be attack speed, lifedrinker and armor which revives them in case of death. They should move behind the lines and quickly dispose the dangerous ranged-type enemy or just dive into the heat of the battle offering stuns. Many stuns. They are somewhat operative to this idea, but they are overpowered.
- Ranger should attack from the distance and have the fastest DPS. Their attacks should go between powers for AoE and single target damage. Their proficiency should be with single target damage and piercing arrows.
- Trickster Rogue should always, at all times, teleport behind the enemy and use anything and everything at their disposal to attack from the back of the enemy for their maximum potential. Their running speed and ability to blend in shadows is pretty much spot on. This is the most operative class atm. Their critical severity should be the highest and no other class should come nearly as close to Trickster Rogue's critical strike. They are the assassins who would utilize the best in boss killing.
- Scourge Warlock should be a DoT based debuffer with AoE attacks and foe manipulation. Use the foe to gain advantage for 20 sec.
- Devoted Cleric should be completely all about healing and buffing the armor of the friendlies. Their damage against the undead enemies should be raised by 5%.
- Outhbound Paladin should be a mix between Guardian Fighter and Devoted cleric, but leaning more towards the role of a tank. They should give all players different auras
- Control Wizard should lose it's name "Control" and become Elementalist Wizard. The class is possibly the most balanced out of all classes in the game curently, even though there are still some problems with the utilization of the controlling ability. Wizard should be a ranged nuke type of a class. Squishy, but dangerous from the distance.
I’ll agree generally with yout sentiment, however high specialization makes solo dailies murderously unpleasant. Think mod12 dino aggro on steriods.
My take is the devs shoot themselves in the foot. The team comp pressures for high end dungeons compounded with unpleasant dailes for support classes only worsen the social environment. The former for the pain of matching and the latter for character class ratios. Each corrode away the enjoyability of the game and especially the social atmosphere, the FaceBook of socialability.
I was promised a cannon, but I just get this sword instead.
Devs pls buff DPS GF so I get a cannon as advertised.
You get a cannon if ya play a male character ingame LUL