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Ranged Classes in this Game aren't really "Ranged"

nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
By that I mean Hunters, Wizards and Warlocks seem to do the most damage within melee range. Traditionally, these classes are supposed to deal their best damage from a distance. What's up with that?
Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW

Comments

  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Because if you could deal more damage from a range than when you're close up, no one would go melee.
    Being away from the enemies automatically means being in less danger of being killed.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    My warlock does not do melee. I would say her range damage is higher than melee (because she has none. :) )
    I don't consider dropping a pillar and run away is melee.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,265 Arc User
    Traditionally, rangers are light armor fighters (First edition had them as a subclass of fighter) with outdoors skills and some bonuses vs. a preferred enemy class. The most recognizable D&D ranger wields a pair of scimitars but this game lets you carry a bow as well.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    By that I mean Hunters, Wizards and Warlocks seem to do the most damage within melee range. Traditionally, these classes are supposed to deal their best damage from a distance. What's up with that?

    If you get too far from the party, you no longer receive the benefits from the buffers.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User

    Because if you could deal more damage from a range than when you're close up, no one would go melee.
    Being away from the enemies automatically means being in less danger of being killed.

    I didn't say more, but at least equal to the dps melee classes. For example, the Hunter has an archery tree, but it's gimp for dps compared to their other paths. As far as not recieving buffs at range, I understand it within the confines of the game, but why does it have to be that way? I played a mage and a warlock for year in WoW and our primary dps came from ranged bolting and aoe. The Hunters sent their pets in and dropped sick bow dps from a distance. Imo it just seems odd that these classes are specified as ranged when their best dps is accomplished when close to the target.

    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,518 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    Because if you could deal more damage from a range than when you're close up, no one would go melee.
    Being away from the enemies automatically means being in less danger of being killed.

    dropped sick bow dps

    Sick Bow dps - brilliant phrase thank you
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 662 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    greywynd said:

    Party buffs shouldn't have a range. Just you're either in party or not.

    Agree but since it work this way atm you have to get close to get buffs in end game content
    I still run ranged archer with my 13k HR, but only wille solo or doing really easy content...

    Another issue taht makes ranged uselss is that positioning has NO effect on this game, even if you climb a high place a mob will melee you from the botton... and they usually close the gap in one jump like the demons in Demogorgon fight...
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    rafaelda said:

    greywynd said:

    Party buffs shouldn't have a range. Just you're either in party or not.

    Agree but since it work this way atm you have to get close to get buffs in end game content
    I still run ranged archer with my 13k HR, but only wille solo or doing really easy content...

    Another issue taht makes ranged uselss is that positioning has NO effect on this game, even if you climb a high place a mob will melee you from the botton... and they usually close the gap in one jump like the demons in Demogorgon fight...
    That depends on what that 'high' place is. e.g. in Chult, my HR shoots the mob and the mob needs to make a big circle run to climb the stairs to get to me. They could not hit me from below.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • eltecheltech Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    There's also the fact that you're only 'ranged' for the first shot, after which the mobs rush you like they're on a rocket sled :p
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    Traditionally, rangers are light armor fighters (First edition had them as a subclass of fighter) with outdoors skills and some bonuses vs. a preferred enemy class. The most recognizable D&D ranger wields a pair of scimitars but this game lets you carry a bow as well.

    This really depends on what era you entered the "fantasy RPG" realm in. LOL
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,211 Arc User
    eltech said:

    There's also the fact that you're only 'ranged' for the first shot, after which the mobs rush you like they're on a rocket sled :p

    Depends on what you use for companions. Intellect Devourer is good for keeping them at a distance with its mass-stun. Crab with its chance to root. Slyblade Kobold boosting damage to stunned/rooted targets.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    Because if you could deal more damage from a range than when you're close up, no one would go melee.
    Being away from the enemies automatically means being in less danger of being killed.

    I didn't say more, but at least equal to the dps melee classes. For example, the Hunter has an archery tree, but it's gimp for dps compared to their other paths. As far as not recieving buffs at range, I understand it within the confines of the game, but why does it have to be that way? I played a mage and a warlock for year in WoW and our primary dps came from ranged bolting and aoe. The Hunters sent their pets in and dropped sick bow dps from a distance. Imo it just seems odd that these classes are specified as ranged when their best dps is accomplished when close to the target.

    That's the issue. Doing more while being safe. Vs doing less while in danger of dying. Choice is obvious. Heck, even doing the same is - just the concept of being safe from taking the biggest hits means a lot. Dead DPS is useless DPS.

    Tabletop is different because you can't buff up your recovery or whatever to be able to spam the hard hitting spells every 10 nanoseconds. While there's a LOT of variation in a video game with thousands of choices and combinations.

  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User

    nl54#3191 said:

    Because if you could deal more damage from a range than when you're close up, no one would go melee.
    Being away from the enemies automatically means being in less danger of being killed.

    I didn't say more, but at least equal to the dps melee classes. For example, the Hunter has an archery tree, but it's gimp for dps compared to their other paths. As far as not recieving buffs at range, I understand it within the confines of the game, but why does it have to be that way? I played a mage and a warlock for year in WoW and our primary dps came from ranged bolting and aoe. The Hunters sent their pets in and dropped sick bow dps from a distance. Imo it just seems odd that these classes are specified as ranged when their best dps is accomplished when close to the target.

    That's the issue. Doing more while being safe. Vs doing less while in danger of dying. Choice is obvious. Heck, even doing the same is - just the concept of being safe from taking the biggest hits means a lot. Dead DPS is useless DPS.

    Tabletop is different because you can't buff up your recovery or whatever to be able to spam the hard hitting spells every 10 nanoseconds. While there's a LOT of variation in a video game with thousands of choices and combinations.


    Now the main problem is that the casters are "forced" to be at close range to be competitive in terms of damage BUT they are far more squishy because they were "designed" to be ranged. My main is an HR and I've picked this class because I've always picked bow classes on every game in the past 15 years that I've played mmoRPGs, but in this game if I want to do the best for my team I have to leave my bow in my back and use my secondary blades and go combat. I know, nobody force me to do that but the thing is that my 15,5HR is easily beaten in term of damage on a dungeon by a 10k GWF if I'm stubborn and stay as an Archer. Same happen to CW or SW, they can indeed choose to stay "ranged" but then their damage is going to be extremly nerfed and that "force" them to go at close combat or being a liability to the team.


    Then is the issue that even at close range the damage from this classes is inferior to the damage of the classes specifically designed to be close combat, but that is a completly different balance/design issue and is not what the OP is complaining about.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,211 Arc User
    tomiotar said:


    I know, nobody force me to do that but the thing is that my 15,5HR is easily beaten in term of damage on a dungeon by a 10k GWF if I'm stubborn and stay as an Archer.

    And this right here is a major part of the problem: not "the party", but "me". It isn't a competition. It is 5 people working together towards a common goal. It does not matter how you get there. What matters is whether or not the PARTY was successful.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    tomiotar said:


    I know, nobody force me to do that but the thing is that my 15,5HR is easily beaten in term of damage on a dungeon by a 10k GWF if I'm stubborn and stay as an Archer.

    And this right here is a major part of the problem: not "the party", but "me". It isn't a competition. It is 5 people working together towards a common goal. It does not matter how you get there. What matters is whether or not the PARTY was successful.
    Its cool to quote just a part of my post and get that part completly out of context. What I also said is "if I want to do the best for my team I have to leave my bow in my back and use my secondary blades and go combat" even if I have to do something completly of what I liked about the class. Im not talking about a competition, I dont care in a dungeon about who the is going to appear as best "Paingiver", Im talking about what is the best for the team and the best for the team is that classes that were not designed to go close combat are force to go close combat if they want to be "Team Player" or to be "greedy" if the player decide to stay at range when they picked a "ranged class".

    The issue here is that the classes that are ranged should do their best (control, DPS, Heal or whatever is their party role) at range and not a close distance, once that basic point is solved then you can start arguing about the damage difference between range, melee and having extra control while DPSing or any other point.

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,265 Arc User
    > @dafrca#4810 said:
    > Traditionally, rangers are light armor fighters (First edition had them as a subclass of fighter) with outdoors skills and some bonuses vs. a preferred enemy class. The most recognizable D&D ranger wields a pair of scimitars but this game lets you carry a bow as well.
    >
    > This really depends on what era you entered the "fantasy RPG" realm in. LOL

    1979 1st Edition AD&D Ranger was a subclass of Fighter that was limited to Leather Armor and IIRC single handed or missile weapons. So that is the era I entered in.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • bobby4700bobby4700 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited February 2018

    And this right here is a major part of the problem: not "the party", but "me". It isn't a competition. It is 5 people working together towards a common goal. It does not matter how you get there. What matters is whether or not the PARTY was successful.

    IF you think it isn t a competition then look at chat for tong partys all want the highest dps so ya it is a competition or they would just ask for dps not high dps
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,211 Arc User
    bobby4700 said:


    IF you think it isn t a competition then look at chat for tong partys all want the highest dps so ya it is a competition or they would just ask for dps not high dps

    And what, exactly, is the dividing line that separates DPS from HDPS? All you're seeing there is elitist HAMSTER.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Not only that but:
    1) You could just be playing the class wrong.
    2) Trapper wasn't intended to be as hard hitting as other paths.

    And it's not a competition. People just want competent DPS so they don't have to change the group. They'd run with a SW if it meant being the fastest. And not because of their "competitive spirit" but because they can do more runs and have more chances to get a stone.
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    1979 1st Edition AD&D Ranger was a subclass of Fighter that was limited to Leather Armor and IIRC single handed or missile weapons. So that is the era I entered in.

    Us old folks and our old style pen and paper games. I don't know of a weapon or armor restriction in 1st Ed. I know in 2nd they gave them some bonus abilities that only worked if they were in Leather and using single handed weapons though. That is where th eimage of the duel wieling ranger shows up as named bonus for rangers (or at least where I know for sure it showed up). But they were not restricted per say beyond that. By the end of the 2nd edition era two weapon rangers in leather were the norm in our area. However they have always been archers in the editions I played. I admit I skipped 4th.

    As for Neverwinter, I believe that the meta wants to push rangers into a melee class. Th eskills and powers seem to favor melee rangers as I understand them. Given that, I think they should allow the melee weapons of the rangers to have the weapon enchantment or at least receive the same bonus found in the enchantment they place in their bows. I admit I am sure there are those who have great functioning archer rangers and could teach me how to do it better, but the meta seems to be stressing the two weapon melee ranger and thus I see the conflict that some could feel.

    Just my limited opinion of course. :smile:

  • gromorg#5173 gromorg Member Posts: 1 New User
    > @pitshade said:
    > > @dafrca#4810 said:
    > > Traditionally, rangers are light armor fighters (First edition had them as a subclass of fighter) with outdoors skills and some bonuses vs. a preferred enemy class. The most recognizable D&D ranger wields a pair of scimitars but this game lets you carry a bow as well.
    > >
    > > This really depends on what era you entered the "fantasy RPG" realm in. LOL
    >
    > 1979 1st Edition AD&D Ranger was a subclass of Fighter that was limited to Leather Armor and IIRC single handed or missile weapons. So that is the era I entered in.

    I still have my 1st edition AD&D books, but my son colored the drawings with crayon, no collectable value now, ha, ha.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    greywynd said:

    Party buffs shouldn't have a range. Just you're either in party or not.

    ya so some afk guy that is untargetable sitting in pvp/ pve camp behind some wall can buff his party lolz ummm nope
    think this thru 101 lol would a DM allow a character that is all the way on the other side of the map to receive benefits of of all abilities and spells .. ...would a dev ??? exploit 101


    aura have ranges and sphere of influence for a reason in dungeons and dragons....and a lot of powers in this game still give benefits regardless if some one is in line of sight or within range ..
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,211 Arc User
    kalina311 said:


    ya so some afk guy that is untargetable sitting in pvp/ pve camp behind some wall can buff his party lolz ummm nope
    think this thru 101 lol would a DM allow a character that is all the way on the other side of the map to receive benefits of of all abilities and spells .. ...would a dev ??? exploit 101


    aura have ranges and sphere of influence for a reason in dungeons and dragons....and a lot of powers in this game still give benefits regardless if some one is in line of sight or within range ..

    PvP is not a primary concern. It isn't like there aren't already different power settings between PvE and PvP. This would just be one more.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    @greywynd Kalina said "pvp/ pve" ???: are there not camps and walls in pve near bosses too

    \the devs dont think players are smart enough to understand.the power description if it has dual use in pve vs pve
    direct quote on reddit ; .. completely crazy assumption if you ask me

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1238443/the-devs-dont-think-players-are-smart-enough-to-understand-power-descriptions-if-it-has-pvp-pve-use


    gave me an idea for a new thread thxs : D
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,211 Arc User
    So? For some reason those purple barriers seem to keep out everything. I don't see my suggestion altering boss fights in any way from what they are now.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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