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HR still needs a rework. List of things that need to be addressed
feanor70118
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
The HR class is just fine in pve, though the archery build remains only marginally useful (in my opinion). In pvp, however, we're back where we were in mod 3, mods 5-9, and ever since the devs, reasonably but without realistic compensation, removed the return of mod 4 piercing damage, which we didn't ask for and didn't want, with mod 11b.
With mod 10 we were promised a rework, at a point when the class was lagging in PVE and basically useless in pvp. We got mostly uncalled-for nerfs, some coding cleanup and not a lot of important fixes.
In pvp currently, the combat build is basically a mediocre tank that can only damage squishy players. The trapper build is exactly what it was before mod 10, unable to do worthwhile damage and little more than annoying to another team. The archery build can do damage but has no survivability. Every other class has better control and survivability tools. Every other class. Every one.
So, ideas for things that should be changed:
1) Long animations. I know Cryptic has always been reluctant to fix animations but they need to get over that and do it.
a) Hawk shot is useless due to its animation's length and the fact that it only does damage at a great distance.
b) Commanding shot's animation is far too long. Why do HR's animations amount to the player using a control effect on himself?
c) Boar charge's animation needs to be fixed so that the freeze at the end is simply deleted. Right now it control the player for longer than it controls the target.
d) Aimed strike and gushing wound, same animation, take about four times too long to be useful. A cooldown between uses rather than a long animation that allows the target to simply walk out of range would be a better idea.
e) Forest Ghost should have no animation at all and should be able to be used when moving, just like a TR's tab bar. This is another instance in which the HR class has to exert a control ability on itself. No other class is oppressed this way.
2) Useless control abilities. The stun effect of Crushing Roots is the only control that HR really exerts.
a) Boar charge does not immobilize the target long enough to be useful.
b) Disruptive shot has no apparent effect. It should prevent an opponent from using whatever their next encounter or daily ability was to be, or simply stop an opponent's animation in its tracks (or, to save budget, simply cause it to miss). Instead, an HR regularly finds that disruptive shot has NO EFFECT AT ALL other than its damage. Just make it work as described.
c) Roots don't do anything but stun (if using Crushing Roots). They don't immobilize other players at all, for any discernible length of time. That is patently absurd. Make them work as described.
d) Cordon of Arrows appears to have no control effect whatsoever.
e) Bear Trap has a tiny area of effect and only with great luck does it ever hit. It has needed to be replaced or fixed, i.e. made actually useful and effective, for a long time and our complaints have, as usual, been ignored - for YEARS.
3) Inadequate dodges. In addition to HR's unreasonably slow stamina regeneration rate, the dodge is, and always has been, too small. Furthermore, unlike other classes' dodges it does not avoid control abilities. This is self-contradictory and one of many aspects in which HR has been given a weakness that other classes do not have. HR's dodges, including Fox Shift, should avoid control abilities. Period. Native stamina regeneration should be at least doubled (not increased by a a Cryptic 100% that actually means half, but real-world doubled).
4) Inadequate movement. GWFs can sprint even though the class should be weighted down by its equipment. GFs, which should be very slow due to their equipment, move as fast as HRs. So why is one of two lightly armored striker classes left with no meaningful movement buffs (and yes, I know that Longstrider's Shot, which is not useful in capping nodes, and Aimed Shot, with a weapon buff, can provide some movement bonuses)? HRs should, along with TRs, be the fastest moving class. They should, along with TRs, be able to sprint much faster than a GWF. Instead, GWF gets a ludicrously simple button-mashing play style, large damage resistance buffs and enormous DPS without having to sacrifice the ability to run away or chase down fleeing opponents. This makes no sense. HR movement buffs should be strengthened and their duration increased.
5) Near-useless stealth abilities. Other classes can easily target the HR through Ambush or Forest Ghost, even at long range. This makes no sense.
6) Lack of large damaging daily powers. The HR's dailies are mostly utility abilities. Seismic Shot and Slasher's Mark should be buffed.
7) Long cooldowns. Apart from trappers, HRs are cursed with some of the longest cooldowns in the game despite the cooldown reduction feats available in the combat and archery trees. TRs recharge dailies faster than archers or combat HRs recharge encounters. This is really a balance issue that other classes should, AS HR ALWAYS HAS on Disruptive Shot, Forest Ghost and Meditation, have hard cooldowns on their dailies. The cooldown reduction feats should be replaced with meaningful buffs. Cooldown reduction feats should simply be deleted or included in the capstone of each paragon branch. Cooldowns should then be brought into balance with other classes.
8) Ridiculously tiny healing, mitigation and temp HP buffs. Oak Skin, Boar Hide, Battlehoned, and Stag Heart have so little effect as to be completely useless, and a waste of an encounter power/class aspect slot. They should all be changed or buffed to make them actually useful.
9) Lack of control break/avoidance. See earlier regarding dodges. Marauder's Escape, Forest Ghost, Fox's Cunning and Fox Shift should all either allow the HR to avoid or break control abilities as appropriate for each (avoiding is what I'd favor except for Marauder's Escape, which should do both).
With mod 10 we were promised a rework, at a point when the class was lagging in PVE and basically useless in pvp. We got mostly uncalled-for nerfs, some coding cleanup and not a lot of important fixes.
In pvp currently, the combat build is basically a mediocre tank that can only damage squishy players. The trapper build is exactly what it was before mod 10, unable to do worthwhile damage and little more than annoying to another team. The archery build can do damage but has no survivability. Every other class has better control and survivability tools. Every other class. Every one.
So, ideas for things that should be changed:
1) Long animations. I know Cryptic has always been reluctant to fix animations but they need to get over that and do it.
a) Hawk shot is useless due to its animation's length and the fact that it only does damage at a great distance.
b) Commanding shot's animation is far too long. Why do HR's animations amount to the player using a control effect on himself?
c) Boar charge's animation needs to be fixed so that the freeze at the end is simply deleted. Right now it control the player for longer than it controls the target.
d) Aimed strike and gushing wound, same animation, take about four times too long to be useful. A cooldown between uses rather than a long animation that allows the target to simply walk out of range would be a better idea.
e) Forest Ghost should have no animation at all and should be able to be used when moving, just like a TR's tab bar. This is another instance in which the HR class has to exert a control ability on itself. No other class is oppressed this way.
2) Useless control abilities. The stun effect of Crushing Roots is the only control that HR really exerts.
a) Boar charge does not immobilize the target long enough to be useful.
b) Disruptive shot has no apparent effect. It should prevent an opponent from using whatever their next encounter or daily ability was to be, or simply stop an opponent's animation in its tracks (or, to save budget, simply cause it to miss). Instead, an HR regularly finds that disruptive shot has NO EFFECT AT ALL other than its damage. Just make it work as described.
c) Roots don't do anything but stun (if using Crushing Roots). They don't immobilize other players at all, for any discernible length of time. That is patently absurd. Make them work as described.
d) Cordon of Arrows appears to have no control effect whatsoever.
e) Bear Trap has a tiny area of effect and only with great luck does it ever hit. It has needed to be replaced or fixed, i.e. made actually useful and effective, for a long time and our complaints have, as usual, been ignored - for YEARS.
3) Inadequate dodges. In addition to HR's unreasonably slow stamina regeneration rate, the dodge is, and always has been, too small. Furthermore, unlike other classes' dodges it does not avoid control abilities. This is self-contradictory and one of many aspects in which HR has been given a weakness that other classes do not have. HR's dodges, including Fox Shift, should avoid control abilities. Period. Native stamina regeneration should be at least doubled (not increased by a a Cryptic 100% that actually means half, but real-world doubled).
4) Inadequate movement. GWFs can sprint even though the class should be weighted down by its equipment. GFs, which should be very slow due to their equipment, move as fast as HRs. So why is one of two lightly armored striker classes left with no meaningful movement buffs (and yes, I know that Longstrider's Shot, which is not useful in capping nodes, and Aimed Shot, with a weapon buff, can provide some movement bonuses)? HRs should, along with TRs, be the fastest moving class. They should, along with TRs, be able to sprint much faster than a GWF. Instead, GWF gets a ludicrously simple button-mashing play style, large damage resistance buffs and enormous DPS without having to sacrifice the ability to run away or chase down fleeing opponents. This makes no sense. HR movement buffs should be strengthened and their duration increased.
5) Near-useless stealth abilities. Other classes can easily target the HR through Ambush or Forest Ghost, even at long range. This makes no sense.
6) Lack of large damaging daily powers. The HR's dailies are mostly utility abilities. Seismic Shot and Slasher's Mark should be buffed.
7) Long cooldowns. Apart from trappers, HRs are cursed with some of the longest cooldowns in the game despite the cooldown reduction feats available in the combat and archery trees. TRs recharge dailies faster than archers or combat HRs recharge encounters. This is really a balance issue that other classes should, AS HR ALWAYS HAS on Disruptive Shot, Forest Ghost and Meditation, have hard cooldowns on their dailies. The cooldown reduction feats should be replaced with meaningful buffs. Cooldown reduction feats should simply be deleted or included in the capstone of each paragon branch. Cooldowns should then be brought into balance with other classes.
8) Ridiculously tiny healing, mitigation and temp HP buffs. Oak Skin, Boar Hide, Battlehoned, and Stag Heart have so little effect as to be completely useless, and a waste of an encounter power/class aspect slot. They should all be changed or buffed to make them actually useful.
9) Lack of control break/avoidance. See earlier regarding dodges. Marauder's Escape, Forest Ghost, Fox's Cunning and Fox Shift should all either allow the HR to avoid or break control abilities as appropriate for each (avoiding is what I'd favor except for Marauder's Escape, which should do both).
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Comments
Animation is a pain gushing is useless becuase of this so is a few others. Movement is compleate joke as we are the slowest of all classes tied with maby the pal.
Dodges is a mess, no cc break for a class based on supposed fast movement is another huge fail.
Low base damage and now no healing together with worst defense ingame made 100% of all pvp Hr vanish. No class in the history of NW has suffered more then Hr from mod 12b.
If the devs do not act when 100% of a class vanish in pvp I seriously daubt there is anything that will make them act tbh.
Just a side not that giving any class including Hr to much control in pvp might not be a good idea, control should be a pve thing as locking down players in pvp is just leading to frustration and preventing players from using their characters. Stun, daze even kb sure but locking down players for exended times is just contraproductive to pvp.(looking at tr smoke with evil eyes.)
Most what you write is spot on but I have no hope that devs will adjust classes for pvp any more. Overall changes maby even new maps but changing classes because they lack in pvp. lets just say I will not hold my breath for it.
I don't know pvp but I don't care about it. We're a top tier class. I think there are other in line who should get attention.
*Looking at the poor SW*
I would whole heartedly agree the Archer Feat path could use some improvements; and when someone else stated that an Archer's control ability is poor with vines or roots I couldn't say I disagree. Even in a full trapper build with several feats to enchance vines or roots they are extremely short.
My goodness probably the biggest issue is Ancient Roots in Trapper TREE has not worked forever!!!
While I admit Archer is my second build as I'm not a fan of Combat it's OK for some PvE content; but can really often do much more poorly in many Dungeons or even Skirmishes. Still overall the Hunter Ranger is in decent shape, but they could use to improved or enhanced at least two Archers FEATS and fix the broken ones in Trapper tree.
As for the comment about Hunters having survivability issues remember to rotate thru all 6 encounter powers as that will increase the odds to trigger life steal.
And about the only areas HR are OK in PVE is in group PVE, they stink in solo content. And even in group PVE a HR is not your first choice and, frankly, they come to the group begging to get in half the time. There are simply better buffers, DPS, control (although control is basically dead in end game other than against players). And the Archer path is complete HAMSTER.
And although a SW needs some love, they still have far more survivabiltiy with feats and such then HR. Movement alone helps the SW as they can move across a large battlefield in a second with almost complete immunity while the HR dodge is clunky, slow, and provide almost no control immunity.
Of course I still hold onto my HR in the hope that they will someday address the Archer side of the HR.
Powers that should hold mobs in place for several ticks don't - either because of server lag or general bugginess. Even with high piercing/resistance ignored stats, the roots don't, well, root NPCs in place like they should.
When I built my archer HR, I'd hoped the aimed shot at will upgrades would increase speed of the mechanic, rather than damage. In most other MMO's, that's the advantage provided as you improve your archer/ranger/HR type character. But not in NWN.
As a consequence - the HR I created is rarely ever out of the Trapper loadout.
Trapper is now a dps/support and fits this role amazingly well. When I go to ToNG this is my preferred role. It's a fun way to play and to help your team and you still can do really good dps while supporting your party.
If you want to deal huge numbers, well, that's Combat. This path is getting stronger and stronger every mod. It's our best dps build by mile now and it makes us top tier dps in endgame.
As for archery - this one is broken, true. If you want to play archery style HR, it's still viable with Trapper feats (perma LS ftw). If ever, I think that archery should be only viable in PvP, since logic says it should be single-target focused.
Lolwut? Dude, do you even HR?
Trapper marginal? Do you play this class? Have you like ever seen what this class can do? Belive me that it is very viable path. Like VERY VIABLE and highly required as 2nd dps/support in ToNG.
Also contribute a bit? Lolwut again? A bit? Perma LS is a bit? You know - the power that gives you 40% more damage and movment, right?
Sigh. It's pretty sad that the only ones who are saying HRs are bad are... some HRs. Go to our class forum and watch you being laughed at.
Seriously, watch some Sume's videos or something.
e) Bear Trap has a tiny area of effect and only with great luck does it ever hit. It has needed to be replaced or fixed, i.e. made actually useful and effective, for a long time and our complaints have, as usual, been ignored - for YEARS.
9) Lack of control break/avoidance. See earlier regarding dodges. Marauder's Escape, Forest Ghost, Fox's Cunning and Fox Shift should all either allow the HR to avoid or break control abilities as appropriate for each (avoiding is what I'd favor except for Marauder's Escape, which should do both).
+1
While trapper remains a solid choice in PvE, combat can hold its own even against most of the gwfs out there.
In pvp however, very different story. Combat quite simply blows, both survival wise and damage wise, its not that its terrible, just not good enough, and in pvp 'not good enough' equals dead and back to respawn.Trapper again, bad damage, bad survival, great stuns. But that's it, dance around, spam root stuns, hope some dps comes along to finish the job before you run out of hindering charges.
Archer, okay, as I have found out these last 2 weeks, amazing damage with top notch gear, but survival so laughably bad that I've died more than 1500 times in 14 days.
Our most pressing issues are a cc breaker, dodges and animation times. Hell, give us even 2 out of 3 of those things and I'll be happy.
Tweaking those would help us out considerably in PvP, and not effect pve very much at all as a) we don't use the long animation encounters in Pve, and b) erm, dodging is for wimps in Pve.
Still I can't say I disagree about the Rogue comment cause even after they adjusted them there still an extremely lethal class. While for years I never had played one except until recently when they were corrected a bit... for years they were the primary ones dreaded to encounter the most in PvP; often you'd be gone before even able to hit them. Rogue is still a very powerful class and while I admit I enjoy my new +10k Rogue - she seems considerably better than my >12k Hunter Ranger. They aren't quite a Warlock or Great Weapon Fighter.
Still both Hunter Rangers even Wizard's could see a few Feat Paths improved slightly; but both would benefit from new enchantments or runestones pairing offensive/defensive abilities with control or control resist.
- Archers an Early FEAT (1st or 2nd level) extending Crit Chance by 2% then .75 per level or 5% max.
- Combat an Early FEAT (1st or 2nd level) giving piercing/bleed DoT that can not be resisted by Armor.
- Trappers an Early FEAT (1st or 2nd level) to extend vines/plant growth by .5-1.25s & fix ANCIENT ROOTS!
Each of those would be small yet vital improvements to the Hunter Ranger. My goodness ANCIENT ROOTS is supposed to extend weak grasping roots by 2.5s (max) and strong roots by up to 5s; yet I still rarely see this being extened by even .5 - 1s at the very most. It serious needs a FIX.