Characters seen too flatlined

docsnuggles · August 2017

I wonder why the developers haven't bothered with the fact that their requirements for epic dungeons are fubarred.

Requirement for a tank and healer means that an OP with a none tank build get's classed as tank
A GF with a non tank build gets classed as tank
A DC with a none heal build get's classed as healer
A SW with heal build can never get classed as healer, even if he heals better than a DC, doesn't matter because the Dev's took too one dimensional to classses.

MY SW can outheal most DC's in dungeons, yet can never get into the heal position. Next to that she buffs the group as a whole with extra damage.
My DC is dps/buff build. Yet she get's the healer spot easy.

You ask for a tank for last spot and you get an OP or GF who can't even hold aggro from a chihuahua or paper bag because their build isn't to tank.

Fix this please.

meirami · August 2017

I think the system only checks the main specialization (e.g. The Oath of Protection or Devotion for Paladins) and not the paragon path (that's what Temptation is). I agree that the current design unfairly overlooks Temptation Warlocks, and Temp Warlocks should also be given some way to heal when there are no enemies around or the enemies are immune (e.g. when a party member fails a dodge during MC or VT strafing sections).

Temptation Warlocks have my full support.

Still, when any Devo Paladin or Righteous DC doesn't heal, it's often because they don't try. For both of them, it is not impossible to at least accidentally heal some, but unfortunately, the kind of players who just dps away wouldn't flag themselves as dps even if the system let the player define their own role. Why would they when the queue waiting time is less than a minute for "tanks" or "healers" and easily over ten minutes for the dps.

hawkeyel · August 2017

They really should take a look at fixing this issue . Players have a much winder way to play a toon than this very simple system they favor.People should be allow to set the toon they are on as to what role they wish to fill. At least this way when you are teaming and find the person that is coming in as the healer or tank and they are not doing that, you can feel better when you vote to kick them lol. Just kidding you could also say the same for some that say they are DPS ,but in all truth they really should allow people to decide the role they wish to play more so than the current system allows. But keep in mind while this might sound easy they would need to place some very real safe guards in place to avoid some that would want to cause problems,just because they can. So I shall avoid the topic of private and public teaming that is a different thing than this topic is going on about.

docsnuggles · December 2017

Fun facts:
My SW is less build for dps and outheals just about everyone in a group almost everytime. This is next to buffing / debuffing.
Yet healer position is a no no.

My DC I use as Dps with buff and debuff and if needed the occasional small heal. I often find myself as top Dps or atleast in the top. yet no way I can sign up as Dps.

plasticbat · December 2017

docsnuggles#6615 said:
Fun facts:
My SW is less build for dps and outheals just about everyone in a group almost everytime. This is next to buffing / debuffing.
Yet healer position is a no no.

My DC I use as Dps with buff and debuff and if needed the occasional small heal. I often find myself as top Dps or atleast in the top. yet no way I can sign up as Dps.

You outheal probably because you were healing yourself. If you took a lot of damage and heal yourself, you will outheal others who did not take much damage.

rjc9000 · December 2017

Aye.

Charts ingame aren't particularly accurate.

Field Medic only checks HP recovered or restored to others. A GF spamming Figher's Recovery or a DPS lifestealing often can win the Field Medic board, but not actually be healing others.

docsnuggles#6615 said:

You ask for a tank for last spot and you get an OP or GF who can't even hold aggro from a chihuahua or paper bag because their build isn't to tank.

If your Tankadin is incapable of pressing the Divine Call button, or is incapable of using any force aggro powers like Vow, then they need help regardless of the build they play.

If your DPS GF can't keep aggro on mobs, they probably can't DPS to begin with, and if they can't keep aggro on bosses when using Knight's Challenge... they have somehow broken the rules of the game.

If your GF is an actual tank spec (Protector or Tactician) and they can't hold aggro, then that is their problem, not the game's problem.

docsnuggles · December 2017

plasticbat said:

You outheal probably because you were healing yourself. If you took a lot of damage and heal yourself, you will outheal others who did not take much damage.

Please explain then howcome when I am in a party with no healer with my SW the rest get's healed like a train without using self heals.
Howcome when I see how others get big hits I see the big green heals popping up. when at a bossfight virtually everyone can stand in the red zones most of the time because they get healed as soon as they take damage.

docsnuggles · December 2017

rjc9000 said:
Aye.

Charts ingame aren't particularly accurate.

Field Medic only checks HP recovered or restored to others. A GF spamming Figher's Recovery or a DPS lifestealing often can win the Field Medic board, but not actually be healing others.

docsnuggles#6615 said:

You ask for a tank for last spot and you get an OP or GF who can't even hold aggro from a chihuahua or paper bag because their build isn't to tank.
If your Tankadin is incapable of pressing the Divine Call button, or is incapable of using any force aggro powers like Vow, then they need help regardless of the build they play.

If your DPS GF can't keep aggro on mobs, they probably can't DPS to begin with, and if they can't keep aggro on bosses when using Knight's Challenge... they have somehow broken the rules of the game.

If your GF is an actual tank spec (Protector or Tactician) and they can't hold aggro, then that is their problem, not the game's problem.

Thank you for proving my point.

A random queue only looks at a class, so how often you get into a RQ and find your designated tank being utterly useless because they don't know how to play the class.
Is it the teams job to teach the failing tank how to play the class because the game decides "you are a tank by rule and as such you are designated tank, regardless your build or if you have even any knowledge about tanking".

"But but he should learn his class, blablabla"

Fail statement for one simple reason. Every gamer knows there are people playing games who will never ever learn how to play their class as it's commonly expected, Be it by choice or by inability to learn at all.

The game however gives you only one option.
DC = heal
GF and OP = tank
Rest = dps.

which only confirmes for me there is a clear tunnelvision, which get's extra proven by their fail random queue issue.

spidey · December 2017

docsnuggles#6615 said:

Please explain then howcome when I am in a party with no healer with my SW the rest get's healed like a train without using self heals.
Howcome when I see how others get big hits I see the big green heals popping up. when at a bossfight virtually everyone can stand in the red zones most of the time because they get healed as soon as they take damage.

Maybe you see the selfheal numbers from lifeleech from your groupmembers or maybe no one needs heal in dungeons like etos/elol/CN/egwd/eCC, so most of the time you heal ur self?

Every usual AA DC does better healing in higher dungeons where you might need some heals. But...i have to admit:
This system is just HAMSTER. This system doesnt recognize any class like a DPS GF or a heal pala. Just HAMSTER.

blindfury11 · December 2017

docsnuggles#6615 said:

Thank you for proving my point.

A random queue only looks at a class, so how often you get into a RQ and find your designated tank being utterly useless because they don't know how to play the class.
Is it the teams job to teach the failing tank how to play the class because the game decides "you are a tank by rule and as such you are designated tank, regardless your build or if you have even any knowledge about tanking".

"But but he should learn his class, blablabla"

Fail statement for one simple reason. Every gamer knows there are people playing games who will never ever learn how to play their class as it's commonly expected, Be it by choice or by inability to learn at all.

The game however gives you only one option.
DC = heal
GF and OP = tank
Rest = dps.

which only confirmes for me there is a clear tunnelvision, which get's extra proven by their fail random queue issue.

wait what? So since players can't tank on their class properly, no matter what spec they use, then it's somehow the games fault for putting them in a tanking situation? How can the game determine if a Prot GF can't hold agro/tank properly? How is the game supposed to Know that an OP isn't using the force agro powers because he doesn't know how to play OP? These are very much "They should learn their class" problems, not queuing problems.

They are playing a tank class, if they are not built for dps and don't know how to tank, then what should they queue as? Do you think they game should prevent them from Queueing because they don't know how to play and you don't want to waste time with them? If you don't want to spend the time to either teach them, or have patience while they learn etc then don't queue public.

It's the same for dps. What happens if you get stuck with a DPS that is getting out dps by a healer?

I do agree that the game should have more leeway when it comes to queuing as certain classes/spec but some players just don't know what they are doing and that will not change until they learn their class.

dafrca · December 2017

blindfury11 said:
How can the game determine if a Prot GF can't hold agro/tank properly? How is the game supposed to Know that an OP isn't using the force agro powers because he doesn't know how to play OP? These are very much "They should learn their class" problems, not queuing problems.

In my opinion, the key to why it is a queue problem is that if the game allows me to build a class as either a tank or a DPS then expects me to only play the tank there is a problem with the game. If you do not want me to play a class differently then don't give me the option to do so. But they did give us the options and thus they created a queue system that tries to force me into the one option even though they gave me several options for my class. That is a queue issue. Two parts of the game that are at odds is a development issue. And sense having options seems to be an intent, then the restrictions on the queue is the issue.

You don't need to agree with my opinion of course, but there it is.

blindfury11 · December 2017

dafrca#4810 said:

blindfury11 said:
How can the game determine if a Prot GF can't hold agro/tank properly? How is the game supposed to Know that an OP isn't using the force agro powers because he doesn't know how to play OP? These are very much "They should learn their class" problems, not queuing problems.
In my opinion, the key to why it is a queue problem is that if the game allows me to build a class as either a tank or a DPS then

That's not what I meant. I agree that there is a Queue problem when you have a build that is not "recognized" by the game.

What I was referring to was this comment by docsnuggles#6615

"A random queue only looks at a class, so how often you get into a RQ and find your designated tank being utterly useless because they don't know how to play the class.
Is it the teams job to teach the failing tank how to play the class because the game decides "you are a tank by rule and as such you are designated tank, regardless your build or if you have even any knowledge about tanking".

"But but he should learn his class, blablabla"

Fail statement for one simple reason. Every gamer knows there are people playing games who will never ever learn how to play their class as it's commonly expected, Be it by choice or by inability to learn at all."

He is throwing both players that have a DPS built on a tank class AND those who do not know how to tank. This is what I was disagreeing to. You can't complain it's the Queues fault for giving you a player who has no idea how to play the game. There's no benchmark for that. What is a player supposed to Queue as if he can't tank or dps? or a DPS who doesn't know how to DPS? or a healer that is so slow on the heals that he get's his team killed? Does docsnuggle want the devs to add a "Doesn't know how to play his class" option when queuing?

dafrca · December 2017

blindfury11 said:
That's not what I meant. I agree that there is a Queue problem when you have a build that is not "recognized" by the game.

What I was referring to was this comment by docsnuggles#6615 ...

Ah got it. Sorry I misunderstood.

I see the point you are trying to make now.

docsnuggles · December 2017

blindfury11 said:
He is throwing both players that have a DPS built on a tank class AND those who do not know how to tank. This is what I was disagreeing to. You can't complain it's the Queues fault for giving you a player who has no idea how to play the game. There's no benchmark for that. What is a player supposed to Queue as if he can't tank or dps? or a DPS who doesn't know how to DPS? or a healer that is so slow on the heals that he get's his team killed? Does docsnuggle want the devs to add a "Doesn't know how to play his class" option when queuing?

No I don't want a "Does he know or not how to play his class" Button to be added.
But I also don't want the game to just assume the one role for every class asif that is the only thng the class can be used for as it is now.
Not every group can deal with a crappy tank and still complete the dungeon, just as not every group can deal with a bad healer in order to complete a dungeon.
But the RQ without a premade team won't give you any options to undercut eventual issues like that.

If you have someone who never really tanked due to the fact that untill lvl 70 tanking is hardly ever wanted or needed, same for healing. Let's face it, till lvl 70 it's pretty much laid back easy play with leveling dungeons being as much of a challenge as clubbing a tied up baby seal.
So then you hit 70 and in most cases newbees have had it pretty laid back.

Then they start to grind a little to get their IL up to atleast start getting into epic and get some beter gear.
Since RQ is a no no untill 10k IL and 28% everfrost resistance they will have to focus on the lower stuff like MC and VT, you know, stuff that when you line up and get into a tandom most of the time you will have 1 or 2 13k or aroudn there in group. Once again the Epic becomes easy play mainly because the high IL will rush forward lot of times, kill stuff even before the freshbee even get's onto his mount.

So by the time we start getting the 10k IL and 28% everfrost resist and people can start to really RQ and get MSP and FBI they still never really had to put themselves to the test and learn to play their character.
Now I am not talking about people with a load of 70's already who have guildies and Alliance members explaining every titbit and how to meta as much as possible.
No the average Joe who now for the first time will face the facts of being tank / healer and notices it isn't all textbook cookycutter stuff at all.
Craps, I made me an OP but my skills are all wrong for tanking, my DC I Always used to Dps and a bit of selfheal with, how do I heal groups that scatter all over the place etc.

So yes, people will get into roles they aren't prepared for and guess what. It's not just the players wrong doing. The game design and the race for lvl 70 nowadays ruined the learning curve for new players.
And not everyone will have people backing them up and teaching them.
Not everyone is able to start asking questions. Not because the option isn't there but there are a pletora of reasons as why people can't ask questions.

So why not just introduce sign up slots, people sign up for healer, tank or dps slots, that way your character isn't slapped into a predefined position but you can choose yourself to fill a position.
If you want to fill in tanking position you need to be a tank class, if you want to fill healer position then you have to have a class which can fill that position.

blindfury11 · December 2017

I do get your point and agree that having different ways to sign up as is a good idea. What I don't understand is why you insist on adding fresh 70s who have never tanked/heal properly in this scenario?

This is what I'm trying to understand.

docsnuggles#6615 said:

Not every group can deal with a crappy tank and still complete the dungeon, just as not every group can deal with a bad healer in order to complete a dungeon.
But the RQ without a premade team won't give you any options to undercut eventual issues like that.

If you have someone who never really tanked due to the fact that untill lvl 70 tanking is hardly ever wanted or needed, same for healing. Let's face it, till lvl 70 it's pretty much laid back easy play with leveling dungeons being as much of a challenge as clubbing a tied up baby seal.
So then you hit 70 and in most cases newbees have had it pretty laid back.

Then they start to grind a little to get their IL up to atleast start getting into epic and get some beter gear.
Since RQ is a no no untill 10k IL and 28% everfrost resistance they will have to focus on the lower stuff like MC and VT, you know, stuff that when you line up and get into a tandom most of the time you will have 1 or 2 13k or aroudn there in group. Once again the Epic becomes easy play mainly because the high IL will rush forward lot of times, kill stuff even before the freshbee even get's onto his mount.

So by the time we start getting the 10k IL and 28% everfrost resist and people can start to really RQ and get MSP and FBI they still never really had to put themselves to the test and learn to play their character.
Now I am not talking about people with a load of 70's already who have guildies and Alliance members explaining every titbit and how to meta as much as possible.
No the average Joe who now for the first time will face the facts of being tank / healer and notices it isn't all textbook cookycutter stuff at all.
Craps, I made me an OP but my skills are all wrong for tanking, my DC I Always used to Dps and a bit of selfheal with, how do I heal groups that scatter all over the place etc.

So yes, people will get into roles they aren't prepared for and guess what. It's not just the players wrong doing. The game design and the race for lvl 70 nowadays ruined the learning curve for new players.
And not everyone will have people backing them up and teaching them.
Not everyone is able to start asking questions. Not because the option isn't there but there are a pletora of reasons as why people can't ask questions.

So why not just introduce sign up slots, people sign up for healer, tank or dps slots, that way your character isn't slapped into a predefined position but you can choose yourself to fill a position.
If you want to fill in tanking position you need to be a tank class, if you want to fill healer position then you have to have a class which can fill that position.

Where would you put these players? If they have the build for tanking/healing but are really bad at it? According to you they can't fill the "Tank" (GF/OP) or "Healer"(DC/OP) slots because they suck at it, but are also not DPS? Where does that leave them?

For example: What happens if a GF, specced into protector and considers himself a tank but has "never been put to the test" and because of that he is horrible at tanking? I don't understand what you think he should be doing? He's not a DPS, so he won't Queue as a DPS, but you also don't want him to Queue as a tank?

dionchi · December 2017

I think if more experienced players would be willing to give a little advice to less experienced players about how to more effectively build and run their characters, there would probably be fewer complaints - but that isn't usually how things tend to play out, some to just to prefer to complain about less experienced players (I'm not pointing any fingers here) and I find that to be a little sad.

I ran my DC in Neverdeath several months ago just to complete one character's daily dragon run and found a low level GWF that was really light on lifesteal and appeared to be having a hard time so I gave them a rank 5 dark enchantment that I picked up at a previous dragon run and told them a lot of GWF's say lifesteal is important for their build (I wouldn't know as I don't run GWF's but I have seen some say that in PE on the zone chat) and I told him there are "build suggestions" on the Neverwinter Wiki.

I didn't find it to be difficult, nor a tremendous personal loss and hopefully I made one player's Neverwinter experience a little more enjoyable, which for me at least is the primary goal, to have fun playing the game.

Now what can or should be done about the queuing system is something I don't have enough personal expertise to comment on when it comes to class assignments, but I can say if there is a player who's character looks like it might be improved on I don't think anyone should think it 'too much trouble' to offer them a few words of advice or maybe something that might actually help them (and possibly everyone else) out.

I certainly can't complain about players who aren't playing like I think they should, because it wasn't too long ago when I was also in that group and I haven't forgotten what it's like, but luckily I ran into some more advanced players who were willing to offer some advice on how to improve my character(s) and from their examples I try to 'pay it forward'.

armadeonx · December 2017

A few points:

* A lot of people don't give advice because there's a high chance the recipient will take it as criticism and become offended.
* Allowing people to select their role will see situations like a GWF choosing a support slot to make the queue pop faster even though they absolutely are not built for that role (GWF as healer..?)
* The queue looks at what role a player is supposed to fulfil, not whether they are any good at it.

They could add a few more path distinctions, similar to how they've separated the Protection/Devotion paths for the OP but that would probably mean some adjusting on the classes themselves and would only help a couple of them.

spidey · December 2017

dionchi said:
I think if more experienced players would be willing to give a little advice to less experienced players about how to more effectively build and run their characters, there would probably be fewer complaints - but that isn't usually how things tend to play out, some to just to prefer to complain about less experienced players (I'm not pointing any fingers here) and I find that to be a little sad.

I got an idea, but maybe its totally strange and impossible to do it:

- what about a les experienced player ask an experienced highendplayer if he/she can help him/her with his/her build/skills etc.?

I know, i know: This is an almost impossible task, because its the freaking mandatory from every highendplayer to teach all casuals and unexperienced players how to play this game, WITHOUT being asked! I find that very sad, that experienced highendplayers forgot that!

blindfury11 · December 2017

armadeonx said:
A few points:

* A lot of people don't give advice because there's a high chance the recipient will take it as criticism and become offended.
* Allowing people to select their role will see situations like a GWF choosing a support slot to make the queue pop faster even though they absolutely are not built for that role (GWF as healer..?)
* The queue looks at what role a player is supposed to fulfil, not whether they are any good at it.

They could add a few more path distinctions, similar to how they've separated the Protection/Devotion paths for the OP but that would probably mean some adjusting on the classes themselves and would only help a couple of them.

Just give a few more options for certain classes. For example, if you are a conq GF you can queue as a tank OR dps. If you are a templock, you can queue as DPS OR healer. DC? DPS or Healer. GWF/HR/TR/CWs etc would only have the dps option. Prot GF? Only Tank as an option. etc

plasticbat · December 2017

docsnuggles#6615 said:

plasticbat said:

You outheal probably because you were healing yourself. If you took a lot of damage and heal yourself, you will outheal others who did not take much damage.
Please explain then howcome when I am in a party with no healer with my SW the rest get's healed like a train without using self heals.
Howcome when I see how others get big hits I see the big green heals popping up. when at a bossfight virtually everyone can stand in the red zones most of the time because they get healed as soon as they take damage.

Life steal? I am not saying you do not do healing neither.
My combat HR was once leading in healing and I am not sure my HR can heal. She has 33% life steal and pretty much glass canon. Typically, it is. Lose 60% HP. Get to 100% right the way. Lose 60%, get back to 100% right the way .....
My GWF lead healing a lot of time too.
I am saying the number on the board is misleading. Getting high number does not mean you heal well. It does not mean you don't heal neither. The number is just pointless.

docsnuggles · December 2017

Ah, so when I run CN with my SW and no healer the people heal themselves like mad and it just doesn't show as heal in the end result. I get it.

dafrca · December 2017

spidey#3367 said:
I got an idea, but maybe its totally strange and impossible to do it:

- what about a les experienced player ask an experienced highendplayer if he/she can help him/her with his/her build/skills etc.?

I know, i know: This is an almost impossible task, because its the freaking mandatory from every highendplayer to teach all casuals and unexperienced players how to play this game, WITHOUT being asked! I find that very sad, that experienced highendplayers forgot that!

I have asked many folks for help. What did I do wrong in the dungeon? How do I get my healing for the party up? What spell is that you were using? and more then 75% of the time I am ignored. Not even a "Don't have the time" reply. Just silence. So while I like your idea, it just does not play out or at least has not played out for me. I just hit my first 70 level character. I know it is badly put together. I have tried to follow some of the builds I find out on the net. But I have had little luck in getting experienced folks to give advice.

Now to be fair, a little less then 25% of the time I have received answers, input, advice, feedback and most of those times it has been helpful. So I do not want to make it seem like all high level folks ignore requests because that is just not true. So the sarcasm aside, you are right, we low end characters or newly minted 70s should ask for help and some of us do.

spidey · December 2017

docsnuggles#6615 said:
Ah, so when I run CN with my SW and no healer the people heal themselves like mad and it just doesn't show as heal in the end result. I get it.

What for an endresult? The crappy false "healing done" from paingiver?
Thats funny. I think i can challenge every healer in CN as GWF if i change to lifesteal and restoring strike. Does this say im a healer now?
Use ACT and you will see the real numbers. Sry, but you cant mess with a good AA DC. AA DCs are much better as a heal class than your SW.

armadeonx · December 2017

blindfury11 said:

armadeonx said:
A few points:

* A lot of people don't give advice because there's a high chance the recipient will take it as criticism and become offended.
* Allowing people to select their role will see situations like a GWF choosing a support slot to make the queue pop faster even though they absolutely are not built for that role (GWF as healer..?)
* The queue looks at what role a player is supposed to fulfil, not whether they are any good at it.

They could add a few more path distinctions, similar to how they've separated the Protection/Devotion paths for the OP but that would probably mean some adjusting on the classes themselves and would only help a couple of them.
Just give a few more options for certain classes. For example, if you are a conq GF you can queue as a tank OR dps. If you are a templock, you can queue as DPS OR healer. DC? DPS or Healer. GWF/HR/TR/CWs etc would only have the dps option. Prot GF? Only Tank as an option. etc

Yeah that sort of thing could work. Bear in mind that for the OP the division is based on their paragon path, not feat path, that's why I'm thinking they'd need to make some adjustments to classes to better differentiate. It may not be necc, I just haven't looked into them deeply enough to say.

preechr · December 2017

dafrca#4810 said:

spidey#3367 said:
I got an idea, but maybe its totally strange and impossible to do it:

- what about a les experienced player ask an experienced highendplayer if he/she can help him/her with his/her build/skills etc.?

I know, i know: This is an almost impossible task, because its the freaking mandatory from every highendplayer to teach all casuals and unexperienced players how to play this game, WITHOUT being asked! I find that very sad, that experienced highendplayers forgot that!
I have asked many folks for help. What did I do wrong in the dungeon? How do I get my healing for the party up? What spell is that you were using? and more then 75% of the time I am ignored. Not even a "Don't have the time" reply. Just silence. So while I like your idea, it just does not play out or at least has not played out for me. I just hit my first 70 level character. I know it is badly put together. I have tried to follow some of the builds I find out on the net. But I have had little luck in getting experienced folks to give advice.

Now to be fair, a little less then 25% of the time I have received answers, input, advice, feedback and most of those times it has been helpful. So I do not want to make it seem like all high level folks ignore requests because that is just not true. So the sarcasm aside, you are right, we low end characters or newly minted 70s should ask for help and some of us do.

Have you asked here in the forums?

A lot of people do that and all get lots of advice

dafrca · December 2017

preechr#2215 said:

Have you asked here in the forums?

A lot of people do that and all get lots of advice

On some of the topics I have asked here or on the Redit Forum or the Google Group and received some answers. I have also done a lot of research on the net to find other older articles/posts/videos etc. So it is not like I am without information. What I was responding to was the idea now people should ask for help once they are high enough to be able to do so. Keeping in mind new players are restricted from chat/mail at first as well.

docsnuggles · December 2017

dafrca#4810 said:
Keeping in mind new players are restricted from chat/mail at first as well.

That is why you don't see lvl 4 goldspammers anymore but slihtly higher level goldspammers.

rannxeroxx · December 2017

How about a pull down tab on your character that you can self identify? You can leave it default but if you feel you are more of a DPS than healer, you can denote that.

Characters seen too flatlined

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