Some suggestions for improving ToNG

adinosii
adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
edited November 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
I like ToNG. It requires cooperation and a bit of thinking - you need competence and good gear to complete in a reasonable amount of time.

A group with incompetent or undergeared players (or even just with serious communication issues) will have problems - it either fails or takes an excessive amount of time.

And you know what - that's just fine - the difficulty of ToNG is pretty much as it should be.

However, it can be improved, and here are a few suggestions.

Seals of the Brave

The seals allow people to purchase some of the highest IL gear in the game, and for many classes/builds, that's also the best gear. In my case, I started by getting 8 pieces of armor and six rings, which cover most of the needs of most of my loadouts.

But what then? What am I supposed to use the Seals of the Brave for once, I have gotten all the gear I can use? Well, right now I am buying account-bound rings for my alts - I can gear them up a but, but I cannot buy armor for other classes - just rings, and after they have all the rings they need, there is nothing I can do except salvage the gear. Salvaging the best (and hard-earned) gear in the game just feels wrong.

Suggestion 1: Allow players to spend Seals of the Brave to buy account-bound gear for other classes.
(according to the comment below, this is already available - I must just have missed it, so ignore this suggestion then)

Ultimate Enchanting Stones

Nobody really needs R14 enchants. The advantage they give over R13 is minuscule, and not really worth the cost. However, it is a psychological thing. Many players are goal-driven and for them, getting the "best" gear is a major goal - the never-ending race for BiS status. Sure, those players know and accept the fact that old BiS gear will become obsolete and replaced with new gear - however, they need to have the goal in sight - it has to be realistic, and that's where you got it wrong this time.

The UES drop rate is too low - it is actually demotivating. My data suggests a 1% chance to drop from a chest, and if I continue to run ToNG at the same rate I am doing, it will take me around 5 years to get the stones I need, just for my main character. That's simply not fun or motivating and it is certainly not worthwhile to spend Zen on extra keys to be always able to open both chests. Sorry, but you went too far.

ToNG is a great dungeon, but running it thousands of times, just for salvage and a tiny chance of an UES is not something I look forward to doing...and I'm not alone in feeling like that.

Suggestion 2: Increase the UES drop rate. I am sure you have the data - look at how frequently 16K+ (BiS) players run ToNG. Calculate how many years it would take for them to get 90-100 Ultimate stones. Adjust the drop rates so it would take a more reasonable amount of time, say only two years.

Suggestion 3: Allow players to buy UES for Seals of the Brave - say, for 1000 seals each. This would also solve the earlier problem, of what to do with the seals once you have bought all the armor/rings you need.

Huntsman Armor

Huntsman armor from ToNG is salvage fodder - people who can run ToNG are generally aiming for the Primal armor. Now, apart from the rings, Huntsman armor drops only for your class, so for most people it is useless - it is account-bound, but your alts cannot use it.

Suggestion 4: Make Huntsman Armor drop for random classes. This will not affect those who salvage it, but it will greatly help people with gearing up their alts.
Hoping for improvements...
Post edited by adinosii on

Comments

  • wizardlvl80#5963
    wizardlvl80#5963 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    You do realize you can buy gear for other classes with seals of the brave?

    1. Go to merchant
    2. I want to see gear for other classes
    3. Pick one you want to buy gear for.
    4. ????????????
    5. Profit.

    That's how I basically got Primal gear for my HR. Getting there as dps is a pain in the hamster, but getting there as a GF is much more easier.
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    You do realize you can buy gear for other classes with seals of the brave?

    Huh?

    I had better go and check out my glasses then, because the last time I checked I did not see that "other classes" option.

    Anyhow, if this is the case that takes care of my Suggestion 1 - still leaves the other three though.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    Suggestion number 5:

    Make UES drop like candy in mod 13.
  • wizardlvl80#5963
    wizardlvl80#5963 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    Hey, no problem. Glad I could help :smile:

    I really like the idea about buying UE for Seals!
  • demolitioninc#2453
    demolitioninc#2453 Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    Concerning UES, I would like to see them drop from the other endgame dungeons as well, FBI and mSP. That would make them available for a broader player base and drop their price in the AH.
    I also like the idea of bying them for seals.
    1. PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
    2. PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
    3. Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
    4. Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
    5. Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    I am actually fine with the stones just dropping from ToNG, and the upcoming Lost City of Omu dungeon (in Mod 13).

    Making them drop from mSP (or even FBI) would not change anything if you still need 40 hours of grinding per stone - that's the real problem - the time is excessive.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    I would like to see more chance for ultimate enchantment stone only if you do hero's accord.
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    I would like to see more chance for ultimate enchantment stone only if you do hero's accord.

    Riiight, and how successbul have you been at actually running Hero's Accord? I'm not enough of a masochist to try it myself.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    adinosii said:

    I would like to see more chance for ultimate enchantment stone only if you do hero's accord.

    Riiight, and how successbul have you been at actually running Hero's Accord? I'm not enough of a masochist to try it myself.
    GF (or OP) tank, main DPS of choice, extra DPS/semi buffer, DC, healer/buffer (Templock)

    You may not be running 15 min runs, but if your team is coordinating, 30 mins, or even slightly faster, is not out of the question.

    I would like to see more chance for ultimate enchantment stone only if you do hero's accord.

    Inb4 the chance is increased... by 0.00000001%.
    :trollface:
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    You shouldn't be able to take a Devo Pally and the tank and a DC.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    *duplicate post*
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    I keep forgetting Healadins are counted as healers rather than chip damage.

  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    OP/GF-DC-dps-mof-templock would work, but most player, let´s say 99,9%, prefer the "easy version"
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I would like to see more chance for ultimate enchantment stone only if you do hero's accord.

    Riiight, and how successbul have you been at actually running Hero's Accord? I'm not enough of a masochist to try it myself.
    10/10 lf more accord and success.
  • dupeks
    dupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    I don't understand why people are so resistant to the idea that you can have "3 DPS" parties that work in TONG. Sure it's not as beautifully overpowered as the double DC double tank setup, @rjc9000 wasn't trolling when he said <30min reasonable runs are within reach.

    SW, HR, and CW can all schlep together some OK party support despite their DPS designation.

    I've had luck with GWF, DC, OP and then 2 other dps roles with support loadouts.

    It's not bad.
  • oldbaldyone
    oldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    The problem is, the longer boss battles take, the higher than chance of that 1 slip up that wipes the group. the first boss is essentially timed, so you have that working against you already and I think more balls come out the longer you go (not sure). Second boss seems to keep ramping up the golems level and the frequency of the storms...so thats essentially timed to. The last boss, you need to stay on the platform and then you need good dps to take down the souls, and the boss, before he instantly wipes everyone.

    So while I don't disagree that 3dps-1dc-1tank can work, there is obviously a set optimal grouping that ensures things go fast and smooth. The more you play with that, yes, you may get through, but you may run into an encounter that you simply can't get through. I've run with a buff CW, 2 DPS, a DC and tank...we got through Orcus, but the second boss just tore us apart.

    There is also a huge difference in the runs regarding player skill.....doesn't reeally matter what classes you have if people don't have a clue :)

    On Topic: I can't bring myself to run TONG enough to have even a full set of primal, but they do need to put in a sink for the extra seals and an easier way to get the stones (doesn't have to drop like candy, but even 2 years to get back to BIS is a bit of a stretch when you consider people are starting at almost BIS).
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    Instead we ask for increased drop rate we should ask to decrease the requirements for upgrading enchants ( exclude bonding-and weapon armor enchants since they give a lot more for their cost) .

    12 to 13 is 1 ultimate potency the half rp than the 13 to 14 and preservations wards. result= 150 stat rating.

    13 to 14 3 ultimate enchantment stone 3 ultimate potency 1 coalescent ward and the rp. result =150 stat rating.

    That is not logic. For the requirements that rank 13 to 14 have it should give 300 stat rating at least.

    Even if we get increased drop rate we will have rp 3 ultimate potencies and 1 coalescent for each enchantment?



    For enchancements like radiant azure brutal etc.( exclude bonding,weapon,armor) :

    1 ultimate enchantment stone and 3 ultimate mark of potency and 3% chance( same chance as the 12 to 13).

    That is more reasonable and poeple will spend time and in other dungeons rather go all the time in tong .