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nerf buffs not classes
buffing is out of control right now. i'm sure that many people (including the devs) aren't happy that the best group setup consists of one dps and four buffers.
Why are buffs multiplying and uncapped while debuffs are additive and declining? why should buffs be better than debuffs? making also buffs additive and declining wouldn't impact solo play or public queues, while encuraging groups to take at least two dps toons per group.
Why are buffs multiplying and uncapped while debuffs are additive and declining? why should buffs be better than debuffs? making also buffs additive and declining wouldn't impact solo play or public queues, while encuraging groups to take at least two dps toons per group.
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Other classes do not really buff all that well. Paladin without powersharing is not a huge buff, GF is good but not broken... Nah, except those two things, I think it's okay.
The problem is if you kill powersharing and DC buffs, you kill DC in general, because devs designed the game so that there is no need for dedicated healers.
The truth is the game content is essentially designed around 5 party members and 5 utilities: Tanking, healing, Crowd Control, DPS, buffing/debuffing. that's the design of the content we play. However, the items and top class specs are designed differently: Tanking, DPS, Buffing, Debuffing. No only you have 4 utilities instead of 5 (so you will always have 2 very similar things in a meta party - currently it is a DC), but you also have no room for what used to be whole party roles.
Imho, you need to nerf cleric buffs and re-balance the content so that you go back to healing (DCs new "old" role) and Crowd Control being a viable/necessary (interrupts maybe?) part of PvE.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
@asterdahl spoke of the difficulty of reaching an ideal role and content balance, partly due to inherited lack of limitations and definitions. Whatever they do, some people are going to be unhappy.
They may go outside the box and instead of changing the powers of individual classes, they may introduce buff caps on overall damage. That could still lead to 1 buff + 1 debuff + 1 tank & 2 DPS which is not a complete change to the current meta, it only broadens the role selection somewhat.
Saying that, I ran a couple of EToS with my guild last night with a random setup of 2 x Prot OP, 1 x SW (as healer) and 2 x TRs and we melted through everything with barely a pause. We just took whoever volunteered.
The 2x DC setup may be optimal for runs but the difference is not huge if everyone knows what they are doing and are decently geared. But once there's a 'meta' everyone just jumps on the bandwagon and lack of courage leads to lack of thought.
You can fix the game but you can't fix people.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Bonding with powersharing is out of hand, even with the update it will still be a bit high IMO. Next up is buffing and debuffing, this is causing imbalanced group where pre-formed groups are running a high number of DCs, OPs, and other buffers over an additional DPS.
Than there is all the bugs and issues with feats and content. The devs should dedicate a team to a full revamp of the game. This would improve not only the buffing/debuffing aspect but the whole game.
Just my thoughts on this issue.
There are also people in the game, which are highly interested "what is possible" in the game with these whole buff/debuff thing.
So the guild i am in, we love these playstyle, and not to make the content easier, or try to "speedrun", these things are "only" sideffects.
With the impact, when Mod6 came up, we were running complete rainbow, when many others were running with an Bubbledin, Haste Dc and as much Gwf's they could get, but we noticed, that there were Groupsynergys, which fits also.
Later on many people preferred fast procc companions (with different bondings in), but some of our "supporters" were using an Harper Bard. (and yes we were not clever enough, that there are cheaper ones like sellsword, con artist in the game.)
So with the time, our whole philosphy about the game changed, up to the point nowadays, that we prefer to run with 4 support and only 1 Dps, and we don't care which class fills the dps role.
And this is something personal, bc i am one of those (uhm "Idiots" is such an harsch word) lets say "enthusiastic people", that still love to play an Tr in Pve, but often, very often if i had an second dps in the party, i had the feeling that i have to give 200% during an run, or i've been "carried".
So it was often not an relaxed run for me, and i felt more than once disappointed, bc of my class.
Nowadays, as only and full buffed dps in the party, it is so nice to hear sentences from my guilmates in our Ts like: "Ouhh nice hit, nice hit!" "There he goes down, well played."
And this is it, we don't care which class fills the dps role, even if it is now overseen classes like dps SW, Tr, dps Cw, or classes which are in better shape like Hr or Gwf, the different between the runs are only a couple of minutes.
And personally, i am afraid, if i am still able to fill the role as only dps with the upcoming changes, or with the permanently request "nerf these, nerf that", for me (us as an guild) these things would have an huge impact for "weaker classes".
So guys, try to see it from this side of the medal.
Cheers
@talon1970 i'd say the weaker classes would profit the most out of a general buff nerf, which would free some space for one or two additional dps. i doubt that there are many teams of four supports who are willing to take an sw as main dps. you might be incredibly lucky to have four supporters who carry you through content although they could expect more dps from another class, but most dps will be left out.
-self-buffs can be too much efficient (in a buffed group, with some procs of mount insignias, etc... look at me GWF ^^)
-party buffs benefit more some classes than some others depending on the way they proc (e.g. the % of damage given by aura of courage is much more important for CW or HR than for SW).
--->The current buffs are fine but they don't apply the same way depending on party composition. So at the end, maybe it is better to
nerfbalance classes.Or at least to review how the buffs are applied to make sure everyone is treated the same way, taking into account their own self-buffs or feats.
As for the current meta of 1 dps/4 supports in Tong, it is true only if the dps is a GWF or HR because they are good on both trash and bosses, and they scale well with buffs. Otherwise, it is more often 2 dps/3 supports and it is perfectly fine. The difference of completion time is minimal.
For FBI, I made plenty of runs with 3 dps/1tank/1dc and there was no problem at all. Same applies to MSP.
For the other dungeons, it is common to have 4 dps/1 tank in T1 or T2 in premade groups instead of wasting some time to find at DC.
The "best" group setup is the easy/fastest group, and buffs are part of this success, but it depends on the group mentality: Some people look for optimized groups, but most of the people are happy with a group that complete a dungeon in a reasonable time, regardless of the group composition.
Tong is a new dungeon and people are still trying to figure how to complete it successfully : that's why the LFG channels call for 16k+ (=more chance of success), more buffers (=more chance of success) and GWFs (=they are the flavor of the month dps class). People imitate each other until they find their own way of thinking.
This was 2 DC, 1 TR, 1 SW. All of these Playwers were on my guild and experiece to do Tong in >30 min, but he only writes emmm no sry. All Want a GWF in grp or a GF or both.
" that you go back to healing (DCs new "old" role) "
How do you bring back healing in a game where design and bosses itself require non or a minimum ?
As said by the dev, the bosses are supposed to be lethal.
I mean come on, you do not need a cleric to heal, you can just get 50 stones and you are set.
A few scrolls for some zen and you are ready to go.
Same can be said for the crowd control. It is kinda dead for mods now, same as healing.
To be clear i am not attacking you.. i am just wondering, how is it , that we two see the the same game, so differently.
It is very interesting to me, seeing someone with such a different opinion from me.
I dont think the problem will be solved by nerfing DC again.
DC get nerf on every mod and next mod bonding nerf will reduce DC power buff by half (at least, with sync it will be more)
clerics used to nerf and allmost no one complain our solo damage will be reduced by half as well, it will make daily progress very hard for new DC.
as for tong 2DC i agree, all runs i did so far was that.
tong looks impossible now for the same reason etos, ecc, CN, FBI... were impossible on the time the came.
even edemo and MSVA that we do with closed eyes today was 50% sucess rate when it came.
for tong its realy zerg or wipe.
"if you know how to play its not a problem" will take you to some place but it does not guarantee success.
first boss you got time before "balls" player is dead.
second its one hit kill or zerg before its happen, it looks like we fight tomb with fireworks, lighting, water... nearly impossible to see something and again its zerg or wipe at some point.
third boss tactic is important, but again at some point you might get 5 stack, pushed or purple wipe. long mathces are allmost all fails for now (once you lose one player you are in problem)
2DC:
every run was 2DC, all Sep FF and Bts main cleric buffs was broken still all insist on 2 clerics?
when i cordinate powers with the other cleric, most have healer spec. at the end one is healer one is buffer.
when we play, we both use 2/3 powrs mainly for heal.
DPS: ppl talk alot about DC but when ppl say DPS its GWF.
i only had one run with 2DC, HR, TR, OP. rest of the runs are GWF's
15K GWF might produce same as 16K HR/TR/CW or even SW imo
and when only tactic is zerg, it counts.
the Dev need to think why early mode was chalenge regardless of GS and now its all zerg or wipe
That being said, when we all talk about buffs, all we are ever talking about is powershare and %damage increase, as that's all anybody wants from a DC or any other buffer, with the rare exception of also asking for Astral Shield
We do heal, and we do generally run at least one point in Cleanse (to strip DoTs) but we are primarily needed to run along with the party as a portable battery, and this is wholly due to the fact that when every other class out there can be built max out crit, armpen and lifesteal and as such all anybody needs from a DC is more power
Devs have tried to structure some encounters in the newer dungeons with damaging effects that they thought would require more healing from DCs, but unsurprisingly these effects don't matter that much when excessive powersharing (AC) and damage boosting (DO) trivializes those encounters
Yes, I said excessive
The problem is, as others have said, if it weren't for powershare, nobody would need a DC, so please, please, don't take it away! ...yet
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
For every twist or trick devs throw at us to make a new dungeon more complex to survive, there should be a counter, and the only counter we have available to us right now is brute force, and the effective brute force tactic we have is 2 DCs
We have the same kind of lineal thinking when we talk about debuffs... What we really mean by debuffs are still %damage increases for individuals or the party
Other Buffs that could counter negative effects in dungeons:
Increase the movement speed of the target to traverse an obstacle course to flip a switch
Increase the attack speed of a single target
Increase the health points of a single target over and above their normal max
Increase target's perception or range
Increase one of a target's physical attributes
Decrease the visibility of a target(s)
Conjure or call magical, divine or otherwise fantastic and powerful entities to aid the party in specific ways
Transform or Transmute someone or something into something else
Remove specific negative status effects
Other Buffs that could be beneficial to a party in dungeons:
Reduce the movement speed of the target
Reduce the attack speed of the target
Decrease the resistance of the target to various elements or forms of attack
Reduce the stats of the target
Cripple target's perception
Lower target's physical defense
Drain target's health capacity
Removing health over time while status effect is active
Remove or impair certain immunities and status effects such as shields
Mind Control, Confuse, Impair and for God's Sake: Turn. Freaking. Undead.
While that may seem like a lot, maybe there already exists a mechanism in a game bound to the limitations of the the buttons on a console controller... have you ever used a Wheel of Elements?
Class Specific, Multi-Effect Artifacts, powerful enough that to aquire one would certainly involve a fair amount of questing (note I DID NOT suggest grinding,) could be a game-changing addition to Neverwinter, as much so as introduing new levels or multi-classing... Moreso if several new class specific artifacts per class were introduced, providing more utility options
It's hard for me to see without my cool Cleric sunglasses, but I think this methodology would easily help Tricksters be Tricksters instead of just another DPS, and the possibilities for CWs and SWs could be endless... Rangers could have access to all sorts of Druidic hoo-ha, and Paladins could call upon whatever diety they serve for some really helpful stuff
Fighter classes.... Well, I dunno... I'm sure you could do something interesting... like maybe various martial styles and moves?
TL;DR: Powersharing is only a problem if the content makes it the only solution
This may even bring dev Paladins back into favor. Still no idea why they have not been balanced to replace a DC in runs when party's ask for a tank they ask for either no idea why the dev's feel the DC is a unique butterfly.( lil harsh, sorry and no I don't main a OP)
The most obvious way for them to do this is to neutralise the combinations of the two paths when active together. This would keep a single DC as full efficiency but make it less worthwhile to bring another.
They also stated they don't mind the replacement for the 2nd DC being another buff class such as MoF CW.
As to whether players will want a DO or AC - well, we have loadouts now so DCs can run both and switch as needed.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
This would also combat the argument that the runs take too long now the way they are.
What would happen is OP would than take that 2nd DC spot and now it would be 1 DC, 1 OP, and 1 GF and OPs would be preferred as a healer for power sharing. Or the GF would become a 2nd DPS.
From my POV the game mechanics needs a complete retooling from the ground up, also known as REVAMP. I support NW doing this as the game stats, buffing, debuffing, group makeup, etc...has gotten out of hand.