Life steal is a joke

thelordrahl
thelordrahl Member Posts: 6 Arc User
this game is based on a 3 way system. tank, dps, and healers. except healers are completely optional. life steal is so powerful that people just stack up some of it and they can easily instant heal from getting hit by mobs. the only thing they cant face tank in this fashion is something that can one shot them. but this leave the "healer" class with little to nothing to do. the only time healing is even viable is if your running lower lv content or with new lv 70s that have not yet gotten decent gear.

why even force runs to include a healer?

Comments

  • dupeks
    dupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    Have you ever tried to solo dailies on a DPS class without any lifesteal? Probably not. Go buff/debuff if you want to play a support class.

    There are healer companions that go unloved because lifesteal is so easy to stack though...

    The reality is that any major mechanics changes would be... changes... and would impact the way the game is played. And it wouldn't be the end of the world if dps classes were not self-sufficient in an overwhelming majority of content.

    In fact, I'd love to see a return to content that forces players to engage with more game/combat systems, and builds need for more diverse roles in a party. Currently it's "max buffs or bust" and putting any points into healing powers or feats (for DCs, SWs, or OPs) is kind of a waste (outside of niche situations).

    But lifesteal by itself is not the (only) culprit. There are tons of self-healing boons, insignia, and gear that together remove the need for a dedicated healer in a majority of situations.

    I don't think nerfing lifesteal will get us to a more balanced game, it would just move the problem around and cost players money to retool their characters.

    However, I'm optimistic that Robert Gutschera has some good ideas about where to take the game in terms of introducing better balance that supports diverse and interesting gameplay / party composition. Of course changes like this are going to be a long time coming and never enough, but it's great to have some hope on the horizon for once :)
  • trentbail21
    trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    You need lifesteal to survive more then 10 seconds as a GWF in PVP.. no way they could nerf it.
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  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,420 Arc User
    Unless you have finished everything in the campaigns, this game ends up being 90% solo/daily grind where classes have to be self sufficient and that means self healing. The later campaigns would be next to impossible without self healing. 3 mob group treasure rooms in RD, especially Nashers or Kabal minions are brutal and anywhere in Chult can be as bad or worse.

    As for healing in group content, it tends to fo in cycles. My DC healed in mod 0/1 and in PuGs through mod 4 when I left. For the most part other than that and since returning, it has been buff/debuff. In FBI+, healing is good. Demo it's a must and extremely useful in SVA. A good healer in IG can be a lifesaver. DoT heavy instances favor heals.

    DC can switch between healing and buffing. OP has a lot of options for buffs and can swap between heals and tanking. Adapt to the party you have and the content you're running.
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  • karvare
    karvare Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    As a OP tank, I wish to point out it is not just self healing but incidental healing. With boons I put out a lot of healing without trying. Yes, this takes away from your healing, but do not expect me to change my character to accommodate your wishes.
  • hammbo1969
    hammbo1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 165 Arc User
    I run solo dungeons, and couldn't get anywhere without my 30% LS.
  • zomak#4611
    zomak#4611 Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Chult would be impossible without lifesteal and no healing potions will not fill the gap. In chult I often times have to use even a stone of health to stay alive. I also have a soulforged enchantment and lifesteal. I can also use forest ghost to go stealth and break aggro off to my companion. Yet even with all that there are many times I still die if I happen to accidentally pull too many groups of the wrong mobs or if I'm fighting one of the particularly nasty mobs. With the damage those mobs do and the control effects they have you need life steal to bring you back from the brink of death.

    Granted I'm only 11k IL not some 15k BiS player.

    Remember potions have a cool down before you can use them again. Also if you use 1 type of potion in combat, even if it's not a healing potion, then all potions and the stone of health go on cool down. This means you can effectively only heal with potions/stones once every 20 seconds or so.
  • masticore#3287
    masticore#3287 Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    In my tank loadout there is alot I can heal through myself from boons and mount insignias. There are the dungeons, more specifically some bosses and packs I could not survive without healers. When I switch to my dps loadout, on newer content, there's alot of packs I could never get through without some type of self heal. Fortunately on top of what I already have in place, which includes a little bit of lifesteal, one of my daily powers heals me up on dmg I put out. A GF on Ps4.

    Ps, as a tank, there's alot of content where my role is not even necesarry, but some groups love my damage buffs and debuffs. Do I feel im a wasted class? No. In the end if we succeed then why complain?
  • time2011
    time2011 Member Posts: 125 Arc User

    this game is based on a 3 way system. tank, dps, and healers. except healers are completely optional. life steal is so powerful that people just stack up some of it and they can easily instant heal from getting hit by mobs. the only thing they cant face tank in this fashion is something that can one shot them. but this leave the "healer" class with little to nothing to do. the only time healing is even viable is if your running lower lv content or with new lv 70s that have not yet gotten decent gear.

    why even force runs to include a healer?

    that should be a good thing, it puts less pressure on your role and you can buff with less worry to the group and get through dungeons faster. i would rather have a party that can self heal on a dime while i'm buffing them and amplifying their overall dps to burn through. healing is needed anywhere just cause you happen to run with people who self heal doesn't mean its a bad thing you should be glad they do cause it means you don't need to worry and can just focus your abilities on buffing them. i really don't see how lifesteal is such a terrible thing it gives the dps a better rate of survivability than to solely depend on the healer to save them.

  • zomak#4611
    zomak#4611 Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    That is another great point. If my lifesteal is taken away then if I die that means it's YOUR fault as the cleric for failing to heal me when I needed it. And as a HR trapper/combat hybrid with my constant dodging around into and out of melee that could be a difficult task to live up to because I'm hard to keep track of.
  • masticore#3287
    masticore#3287 Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    I rremember the days of world of Warcraft 40 man raids. Wanna talk about pressure to perform. Let the MT die? Healer fault. Dps dies? Healers fault. Healers die? Healers fault. Each class had to fulfill their role or you just wasted 39 other peoples time. That level of gaming could make or break your end game plans. Here in neverwinter, the instances are far more forgiving. End game content is accessible to even the most mindless players.

    People already complain about the iL gap, and making it harder on players will not benefit neverwinter nor cryptic.
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    Two words...private que. There problem solved. Now leave my 40% LS alone please.
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,459 Arc User
    edited August 2017

    this game is based on a 3 way system. tank, dps, and healers. except healers are completely optional. life steal is so powerful that people just stack up some of it and they can easily instant heal from getting hit by mobs. the only thing they cant face tank in this fashion is something that can one shot them. but this leave the "healer" class with little to nothing to do. the only time healing is even viable is if your running lower lv content or with new lv 70s that have not yet gotten decent gear.

    why even force runs to include a healer?

    The answer is you are not forced to have a healer, a tank or even a party. You can enter the dungeon alone.
    Hack! You don't need "dps class" neither. That is why there were those 5 DC, 5 OP, 5 GF runs before.
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  • time2011
    time2011 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    i agree this guy should be removed from forums cause lets play out a scenario where cryptic actually did remove lifesteal from the game and now the only source of healing will demand a cleric or op healadin to heal you and what happens if they die? no healing from any source because the dps was stripped of lifesteal or any self healing ability. and what if the healer gets killed multiple times and does not learn their lesson and most really can't figure out that the red lines are bad most the time. that means the dps that was burning through is getting slaughtered because they can't be self reliant anymore. if you play as a dps class or even a tank you need to be self reliant in order to survive. it's easy to say anything if your a healer cause all you do is heal and buff yourself. with lifesteal or any self healing ability/boon gives you the opportunity to not only survive but put less pressure on the person supporting you, giving them more leg room to focus on protecting and buffing their team now that they know they can heal themselves fairly easily and quickly. the worry of seeing their hp drop to zero is taken away. this game lets you be more than just a heavy hitter lets you adapt other roles to help your output better. if you don't like they can self heal, really just leave the group and make a dps class then see if you feel so horribly towards a stat that can literally save you from dying.
  • strathkin
    strathkin Member Posts: 1,274 Arc User
    Control Wizard's are crazy squishy when it comes to taking damage probably far more than any other class... Lifesteal is required to just survive but it still does not necessarily PROC often enough especially if your not wearing Platesmith or Mailsmith Armor and have a higher damage resistence -- so Healer's despite your claim about Lifesteal still play an important role.
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    OP has a point - there is no need for healers anymore with the way the game is currently set up.

    Used to be that the Tank took the aggro, Healer helped the tank stay alive and the DPS did their thing. Now all I do on my DC is buff / debuff.

    Now the game is just DPS everything.

    So its OK for DPS to self heal through nearly all content, but its not OK for a healer to fill a DPS role or god forbid, a tank fill a DPS role.

    And to those of you saying that the OP should be banned from the forums for daring to say Healers should be relevant in a MMO, even if it is in jest, that's just a ridiculous thing to say.
  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    well having healers is pointless because half the tanks, well more than half used for tanking are OPs which do not need healing.
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  • thornbr1nger
    thornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    If they nerf life steal to the point that dps need healers 100% of the time to get through content it's time for clerics to go back to needing dps to tag along with them to get dailies done in a less than 5 hours lol
  • dupeks
    dupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    If they nerf life steal to the point that dps need healers 100% of the time to get through content it's time for clerics to go back to needing dps to tag along with them to get dailies done in a less than 5 hours lol

    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

    Reemphasizing here that not all players agree with the mentality above. I would much prefer more diversity in viable roles for each class, than less. I'm really dismayed to see so many voices asking for a reduction in the variety in this game.

    Put another way, I'd much prefer "dps" classes to have viable "support" roles and vice versa than everyone being confined to their main role only.

    Additionally, when solo-ing, dps classes currently have a sizeable advantage over current "dps builds" for support classes. Some of the sentiments expressed in this thread are pretty hyperbolic.
  • artifleur
    artifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    This thread isn't about role diversity.

    That guy is asking for classes without the "healer" tag to be unable to heal themselves in any way. And I agree that this is exactly the kind of toxic mentallity that kills MMO's.

    The holy triptic isn't "tank/dps/healer" but "tank/dps/support", support being healing, buffing and debuffing.

    In the current state of Neverwinter healing isn't important or efficient but buffing and debuffing are.

    Leave lifesteal alone. And quit asking for nerfs.
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    This thread isn't about role diversity.

    That guy is asking for classes without the "healer" tag to be unable to heal themselves in any way. And I agree that this is exactly the kind of toxic mentallity that kills MMO's.

    The holy triptic isn't "tank/dps/healer" but "tank/dps/support", support being healing, buffing and debuffing.

    In the current state of Neverwinter healing isn't important or efficient but buffing and debuffing are.

    Leave lifesteal alone. And quit asking for nerfs.

    Show me where the OP says that "classes without the "healer" tag to be unable to heal themselves in any way". Please, I must have missed it.

    The only toxicity in this thread is from the over reaction from certain ppl.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of nerfs, no-one likes losing what they have worked hard to achieve. But going forward I would support healers being required again. Won't say I know how they make that happen.

    I do not want to use a healer companion or hire a pocket cleric to do dailies. It is an absurd request. My guess would be they would want healers and tanks to be able to use Striker pets and be multi-role DPS gods, while DPS classes have to use healer pets and do low damage due to having to build to survive. Twilight Zone stuff right there.

    Oh no, how horrible would it be if the DPS glass cannon type had to use a healing companion? In fact, they should remove all those types of companions from the game just to be sure it can never happen. "Multi-role DPS gods" . . . .lol where are you getting that from?
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @thelordrahl said:
    > this game is based on a 3 way system. tank, dps, and healers. except healers are completely optional. life steal is so powerful that people just stack up some of it and they can easily instant heal from getting hit by mobs. the only thing they cant face tank in this fashion is something that can one shot them. but this leave the "healer" class with little to nothing to do. the only time healing is even viable is if your running lower lv content or with new lv 70s that have not yet gotten decent gear.
    >
    > why even force runs to include a healer?

    Healer can't out heal one shot bosses either so what's your point?
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  • artifleur
    artifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    OK maybe I overreacted but removing lifesteal wouldn't help healers at all, people would just die all the time.

    Lifesteal has plenty of drawbacks : you can't heal at all when you can't deal damage and you still have to invest skill points in it, taking away other defensive stats.

    Healer classes can still be very useful, and indeed very much wanted, in group content, they just shouldn't focus on healing only.

    Finally, people can already die often enough with or without a healer.

    The one illogical aspect that I can see is that the queue system tags characters as tank, dps or healer which is misleading for new players since the so-called "healers" really are support classes not just healers.
  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    Healing will never be the main draw for support. It's all about mitigation and shields.

    The problem is that this game feeds in damage too quickly. for healing to work they would have to remove all self healing and make monster deal much less damage. Much like other MMOs. Resting after a few encounters to get hp back up.

    Thats just too much work to implement
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