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stronghold weapons II vs Storm King weapons.
dyukiller
Member Posts: 89 Arc User
hello forum friends, we are having a huge discussion on my guild about whitch weapon is the best one.
both has same stats but different bonuses, so i'll discribe what their are saying:
first argument is:
dps means damge per second, assuming you get the same dmg on a skill, like 100 and you have 10s cooldown this means the dps of that skill is 10. (100/10=10) that the reason why recovery is an offecive stat.
Ok, start by this, storm king weapons has 10% for 10s and 20s cool down. is correct count this bonus over time?
like:
(10%/20s=0.5%)
or count all the time for activate again:
(10%/30s=0.33%)
and this should be /2, becouse you have chance to ative a deffencive stats that measn 0% bonus dmg.
(10%/30=0,33%)/2 = 0,16
remember, we are talking about overal bonus dmg is just becouse stronghold weapons has no cooldown.
if that is right, means use stronghold weapon is 1,5% or 1,67% bonus dmg overal over storm king weapons.
Second argumet is:
Only support classes should use stronghold weapons, to buff dmg dealers and help protect them.
Dmg dealers should use storm king becouse if you have a party with 3 supports using stronghold weapons they'll pass 6% dmg buff, and whem storm king activate they'll have 16% bonus dmg.
my opinion:
5 players using stronghold means 10% more dmg,10% more heals and 10% less dmg taken without any cooldown is the best bonus we can have and everybody should use.
(this bonus affect companion too.)
well, could you guys help me end this topic?
Please don't worry to argu about the price, and how hard is to do masterwork or things like stom king if free but ild / uvar marks si hard to get you know what i'm saying?
the point here is compare weapon bonuses.
ps. my english is rusty but my sword is sharp.
both has same stats but different bonuses, so i'll discribe what their are saying:
first argument is:
dps means damge per second, assuming you get the same dmg on a skill, like 100 and you have 10s cooldown this means the dps of that skill is 10. (100/10=10) that the reason why recovery is an offecive stat.
Ok, start by this, storm king weapons has 10% for 10s and 20s cool down. is correct count this bonus over time?
like:
(10%/20s=0.5%)
or count all the time for activate again:
(10%/30s=0.33%)
and this should be /2, becouse you have chance to ative a deffencive stats that measn 0% bonus dmg.
(10%/30=0,33%)/2 = 0,16
remember, we are talking about overal bonus dmg is just becouse stronghold weapons has no cooldown.
if that is right, means use stronghold weapon is 1,5% or 1,67% bonus dmg overal over storm king weapons.
Second argumet is:
Only support classes should use stronghold weapons, to buff dmg dealers and help protect them.
Dmg dealers should use storm king becouse if you have a party with 3 supports using stronghold weapons they'll pass 6% dmg buff, and whem storm king activate they'll have 16% bonus dmg.
my opinion:
5 players using stronghold means 10% more dmg,10% more heals and 10% less dmg taken without any cooldown is the best bonus we can have and everybody should use.
(this bonus affect companion too.)
well, could you guys help me end this topic?
Please don't worry to argu about the price, and how hard is to do masterwork or things like stom king if free but ild / uvar marks si hard to get you know what i'm saying?
the point here is compare weapon bonuses.
ps. my english is rusty but my sword is sharp.
2
Comments
The +2% from SH weapons has 100% uptime, whereas the relic weps have 10 sec uptime and 30 sec cooldown so only 33.33% uptime. The Relic weps also have a bonus that is not necessarily easy to time and trigger, especially with how often shifting is used by common dps classes. Not saying a great dps player cannot consistently trigger the offensive bonus, but it's harder to do that (and you theoretically sacrifice at least a little bit of flexibility with your movement / rotation timing).
That said, if you know you are getting a 10% buff right then and there, then you can time it with your big hits.
Buffs are multiplicative with each other. I vaguely recall that the +2% per stack from the SH weapons is additive with itself (meaning 2 stacks is +4%, not (+2%)*(+2%) ), but the Relic offensive buff and the SH weapon buff are definitely multiplicative, not additive. It's a very subtle difference, but it's important to call out.
So with +6% party and +10% from relic, you'd be sitting at (1.06) * (1.1) = 1.166 ~ 16.6% total damage increase from the two buffs combined.
In my subtle unfounded speculative opinion, the constant uptime + easy of use gives relics the upper hand for the "average" dps player. Careful pros can squeeze out more damage using the relics, by timing their rotations and coordinating with teammates to burst when the offensive relic buff procs. Depends on whether you think you can consistently pull that off or not.
As soon as you're not the top damage dealer in the party though, then SH weps clearly win out.
as a gwf i can tell for me is almost impossible, been a melee class run is the difference between kill and die.
I have 5 friend that wants to run togheter, op,gf,dc, cw and me gwf. all 16k+.
we start to talk and buy/make SH weapons and the critics from others guilmattes began.
so i decided to put this here, to understand, and ocasinally send this tread link to them.
One guildmatte said:
relic dps is 3.3, becouse you have to count 10% for every second it is ative
(10%*10s=100%/30s =3.3%)
and to have more dmg bonus we'll need at least 2 ppl, to have 4%
but if it is correct, SH can be calculated at the same way, using 30s of relics
(2%*30=60%)
that makes think : we don't know nothing about it!
Especially since burst can be very valuable. It's the same reason sudden crit/power rings are popular: because having a short window where your damage is substantially higher is more conducive to this game's combat mechanics. Put another way, if you have 10sec of big damage buff at the start of every fight and you finish every fight in 10sec or less and have 20sec in between big fights, then your effective uptime on relics is closer to 100%, certainly much higher than 33%.
And more so, if you can consistently time your big hits to land in the 10% buff window, then they are getting the full 10% buff and not ever the 0% buff. So again a 3.3% estimation is a simplification that devalues burst, when in fact burst is really important for dps in this game.
Finally, since each person's SH wep adds 2% independently, I would say it's a little misleading to say that "2 people with SH are better than 1 person with relics". Decision analysis would ask the question "if I have 1 person with SH wep, is it better to add a damage dealer with relic or another SH?"
Sorry I'm playing both sides here, but there really isn't a great way to answer this question outside of specific party compositions and player skill levels.
Like I said before, in my opinion a great damage dealer player can squeeze more damage out of relic weps, but has to work for it. But if they aren't the top damage dealer, or they aren't great at controlling the offensive relic buff and timing with their rotations, then relic weps will provide more damage contribution to the party.
Thank you again for responding.
The same thing happened in the guild.
Doubts, questionings, interpretations and some playing on both sides.
We get lost by not understanding correctly how to calculate the average DPS of the relic weapon,
In the end, nothing was solved, some think the relic is the best others think SH is better.
Well we made a group with SH weapons, and it's 100% better in my opinion, I have the relic and I had the aboleth (which I used to refine the SH)
And I feel a huge difference, you know that moment that activates the bonus and you start giving very high hits?
Then imagine this from the beginning to the end of the dungeon.
Gf and Op, reporting a resistance to damage never before seen by them.
10% dmg.
10% heals
10% less damage
All this all the time, and in the companions the effect is the same.
My fire archon did not die at manticore. (my suicide fire archon.... tanking, i must be dreaming)
Cures from companions are larger, tank companions are almost immortal,
It's not just you who gets strong for 10s, it's going to be your whole team!
Regardless of class, companions, distance or build, is a direct and complete buff.
This is worth quoting, a friend thought it had a buff distance, something like "X" feet.
No, there is not! You can be at the first campfire and your friends at last boss.
My conclusion although some guildmattes do not agree, the BIS is a group with 5 SH weapons.
But it is always so, when someone famous on youtube / twitch say that SH weapons are BIS, they will change their mind.
This speeds up everything! Deadly serious.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1 So whereas now a Sellsword provides 10% or nearly 10% if you have a handful of uncapped buffs, in the new system it'll just be an additive 10% that gets rolled in under the cap, and has diminishing returns applied.
So if you already have a lot of other debuffs, the Sellsword's contribution is way lower than it used to be. For example if it's taking you from +200% to +210% additive, then it will take you from 156.1% ->161% which is an incremental damage increase of (1.61 - 1.561)/1.561 = 0.03139013452 ~ 3.14% damage increase
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1
is one point i dont understand: So i just asked a simple question and where i can read that debuffs from comps dont work in mod 12. I hope it makes sense for you.
Also consider that it not always attacking what it should, and.... you get less...
And yes, I use a sellsword with full loyal avenger set, so it's all things to take into considerations.
also the SH effect over companion/pets is really usefull
that's why i also think SH weapons are beter for dungeons, even more if youre a GWF
The Burst weapons and rings are nice to mob killing wille farming, they work even better on a CW wille doing daily's for ex...
Anyway if you have some good guild mates that will make the SH weapons and run with you, theres no doubt about i the the SH set (because you should have no problemt do farm dailys after 12k gs anyway)
is on Dungeons/Skirmishes that you will need that buff and there is always better (and more fun) to have some friends around...
- Buffs are multiplicative (+4% buff is always +4% and always gives you *1.04 damage)
- Capped debuffs are additive with each other, and capped to +100% or 200% effectiveness. Also, since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. (put another way, going from +0% debuffs to +5% debuffs is 5% damage increase (1.05-1)/1=0.05, but going from +95% to +100% is only (2-1.95)/1.95=0.02564102564~2.56% damage increase)
- Uncapped debuffs are additive with each other, and multiplicative with capped buffs. So the first 10% you get is actually 10% damage bonus. The next 10% (say 2nd sellsword) is worth (1.2 - 1.1)/1.1 = 0.0909090909~9.01% damage increase. So since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. But since this bucket contains very few uncapped debuffs, it's often that you're getting close to the full amount.
OK so what is happening on preview?- Buffs are multiplicative. Nothing has changed with buffs. (+4% buff is always +4% damage increase)
- All debuffs are now rolled into a single additive bucket. There is no more capped vs. uncapped. Furthermore, there is additional diminishing returns applied that reduce the impact of debuffs even more than the natural additive nature of the math. Additive components have natural diminishing returns (like you saw above) but there is an additional diminishing formula being applied in the new system that further reduces debuffs the more you have.
So what's that mean? It means that anything that used to be an uncapped debuff isn't going to be super special anymore. Uncapped debuffs used to be in a very small pool of debuffs that were almost always worth their full tooltip debuff value because not a lot of things were counting as uncapped. Since all debuffs are going into a big pool now, the additive nature of the math makes you get less damage with each +1% debuff. In addition, the diminishing returns penalty further reduces that.So in an end-game party, a sellsword used to provide say +5% to +10% additional damage increase, depending on how many uncapped debuffs you had.
In the new system, same end-game party, I would expect a sellsword to provide <4% damage increase (potentially way less than 4%, maybe closer to 2%), depending on how many total debuffs you have.
To clarify: I wasn't saying the debuff wasn't going to work at all. I was saying that it won't be "too good to pass up" anymore, especially for main damage dealer classes who might benefit the party most by slotting a roster full of archons and other damage buff pets.
Would buy them for my other characters too, but they are not cheap.
There seems to be one wrong Argument. Stronghold Weapons grant their Bonus only to others, who use Stronghold Weapons. If, for example, your DC and your OP both use Stronghold, and the 3 dd use Relic, then the DD all only will get their Relic Weapon's Bonus of 10%, while DC and OP both will get 4% (2% from own weapon and 2% extra from the other Stronghold Weapon)
Besides this your equation is ok. But you have to include different situations and conditions.
For example: Relic Weapon is a good weapon for a CW, as the CW most of the time can activate an Encounter, before he Needs to shift. A GWF on the other Hand often Needs to run to reach Close Combat, so a Stronghold Weapon could be of more use damage-wise.
Another problem is, that there are burst situations, where you need that bonus only for 10 seconds, and Long-time situations (bossfights), where you have that bonus only during 1/3 of the time.
Also, you have to include the risk of playing with other group constellations. If, for example you Play with the same 5 People, who each have a Stronghold Weapon, then you have a full-time Bonus of +10% damage and -10% enemy damage. This is always better than a Relic Weapons bonus. But if 2 or more in your Group do not have a Stronghold Weapon, then this equation does not work.
What I want to say is:
There is no universal solution for your problem.
But you can find out, how your average group situation and your average run will be. And then apply to that situation different scenarios, one where each has a Relic Weapon, one where each has a Stronghold Weapon, and one, where each has the weapon, that makes the most sense without taking the group into account.
If, for example, you find out, that you only run with the same Group of friends, and it is possible this way to assure, that at least 4 members have a Stronghold Weapon all the time, the Stronghold ones probably will be the better weapon.
That fact definitiely needs to be considered when thinking about the scenarios.
6 minutes Jarl Storvald was dead meat, no dead men's.
This is under a lot of assumptions:
You hit every offensive bonus
You line up your big hits with your offensive bonus
your teams buff uptimes line up with your offensive bonus
you don't lose any combat time trying to manipulate the relic bonuses
you're in combat for the full duration of the offensive bonus
you're attacking for the full duration of the offensive bonus
and probably a lot more i'm not thinking of
I feel in real life scenarios (outside of very specific groups) you won't be able to utilize the offensive bonus enough to make it a better choice for a clearing a dungeon faster. That's only considering the offensive portion of the MW weapons. I'm also of the minority opinion that the defensive bonuses from the MW weapons are also useful.
I do think it's possible to get a better damage boost out of relic, I just don't think it'll be much better than relic even when it happens, and it won't happen often.
It's all moot though since 95% of dps players only care about paingiver and a 10% bonus for yourself will always look better on the paingiver chart than 2% for everyone.
I would always choose MW > relic except the CW set is so HAMSTER expensive.
I have SHII on my gwf main, and am gearing up all the alts with the crafted Chult weapons.