Mod 12 Tenacity

bvira · July 2017

Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)
Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)
Note: (DR-Attacker's Arp/2) ≥ 0

The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

[LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.

kalina311 · July 2017

so defense is dead then ?
guild defence boon is useless/less usefull in pvp compared to hitpoint one now ?
deflect is the way to go now ?

trentbail21 · July 2017

@bvira
For the people that aren't math wizards. Which is me I try but honestly I dont want to pass bad information so I dont really try..

How much damage would you do versus someone with lets say 2k tenacity which is 40% dr and 40% crit resistance if you had 75% crit severity and/or 100% crit severity and you had the perfect armor pen to negate their defense?

Crits do more then non crits again with that little severity?

bvira · July 2017

kalina311 said:
so defense is dead then ?
guild defence boon is useless/less usefull in pvp compared to hitpoint one now ?
deflect is the way to go now ?

Pretty much no reason at all to stack defense at this point.
HP vs deflect is kinda hard to assess, haven't given it much thought yet.

trentbail21 said:
@bvira
How much damage would you do versus someone with lets say 2k tenacity which is 40% dr and 40% crit resistance if you had 75% crit severity and/or 100% crit severity and you had the perfect armor pen to negate their defense?

Crits do more then non crits again with that little severity?

The way it works now is that your Arp can only mitigate DR provided by defense, AC and skills; it can no longer mitigate the DR provided by tenacity.

E.g:
You: infinite Arp
Opponent: 40% TenDR + 40% CritR

Using the forumlas you'd get the following results:
Your non-crit will do at most 60% of your tooltip dmg.
Your crit will do at most 36% of your tooltip dmg x (1+crit sev%).

The point is that crit still sucks and I would still advise against stacking crit.

trentbail21 · July 2017

@bvira

Thanks alot man I was kind of curious with all the changes and all. Thanks alot for the help and hard work.

marnival · July 2017

bvira said:

kalina311 said:
so defense is dead then ?
guild defence boon is useless/less usefull in pvp compared to hitpoint one now ?
deflect is the way to go now ?
Pretty much no reason at all to stack defense at this point.
HP vs deflect is kinda hard to assess, haven't given it much thought yet.
trentbail21 said:
@bvira
How much damage would you do versus someone with lets say 2k tenacity which is 40% dr and 40% crit resistance if you had 75% crit severity and/or 100% crit severity and you had the perfect armor pen to negate their defense?

Crits do more then non crits again with that little severity?
The way it works now is that your Arp can only mitigate DR provided by defense, AC and skills; it can no longer mitigate the DR provided by tenacity.

E.g:
You: infinite Arp
Opponent: 40% TenDR + 40% CritR

Using the forumlas you'd get the following results:
Your non-crit will do at most 60% of your tooltip dmg.
Your crit will do at most 36% of your tooltip dmg x (1+crit sev%).

The point is that crit still sucks and I would still advise against stacking crit.

If you have 200 crit severity how much extra damage would that make against 100 crit seveity asuming you have enough arpen to negate defense according to your math? If you do not mind answering me being a bit lazy here

.

bvira · July 2017

marnival said:

If you have 200 crit severity how much extra damage would that make against 100 crit seveity asuming you have enough arpen to negate defense according to your math? If you do not mind answering me being a bit lazy here .

Depends on your crit chance.

Say your crit chance is 50%, then increasing crit sev from 100% to 200% increases your dmg by ~66.7%.

marnival · July 2017

bvira said:

marnival said:

If you have 200 crit severity how much extra damage would that make against 100 crit seveity asuming you have enough arpen to negate defense according to your math? If you do not mind answering me being a bit lazy here .
Depends on your crit chance.

Say your crit chance is 50%, then increasing crit sev from 100% to 200% increases your dmg by ~66.7%.

Never mind the crit chanse just the damage increase from 100% crit severity to 200% /hit.

It will not be hard to reach 80% crit the question if to go with power or crit if you have very high crit severity.

Tnx alot for taking the time to answer btw ))).

bvira · July 2017

xsayajinx1 said:
Everyone who says defense will be useless need to test defense again. DR mitigates debuffs on preview.

Just did a quick comparison between 0 defense vs 8000 defense + using DR boosting abilities (e.g. Astral Shield) against several debuffs. I've also tried stacking some tenacity but I could not find a difference in debuffed value.

plavia · July 2017

looks like alot of damage.
why Def is bad? its still reduce damage and ArP impact reduced by half

greywynd · July 2017

eh, they should remove Tenacity completely if that is their long plan, and make everyone go cold turkey, instead of minor adjustments to wean people off of it.

trentbail21 · July 2017

greywynd said:
eh, they should remove Tenacity completely if that is their long plan, and make everyone go cold turkey, instead of minor adjustments to wean people off of it.

They would have to give us ALOT better gear or BASE HP to make that change lol. But it could have been done.

greywynd · July 2017

They don't HAVE to give anything.

mamalion1234 · July 2017

bvira said:

kalina311 said:
so defense is dead then ?
guild defence boon is useless/less usefull in pvp compared to hitpoint one now ?
deflect is the way to go now ?
Pretty much no reason at all to stack defense at this point.
HP vs deflect is kinda hard to assess, haven't given it much thought yet.
trentbail21 said:
@bvira
How much damage would you do versus someone with lets say 2k tenacity which is 40% dr and 40% crit resistance if you had 75% crit severity and/or 100% crit severity and you had the perfect armor pen to negate their defense?

Crits do more then non crits again with that little severity?
The way it works now is that your Arp can only mitigate DR provided by defense, AC and skills; it can no longer mitigate the DR provided by tenacity.

E.g:
You: infinite Arp
Opponent: 40% TenDR + 40% CritR

Using the forumlas you'd get the following results:
Your non-crit will do at most 60% of your tooltip dmg.
Your crit will do at most 36% of your tooltip dmg x (1+crit sev%).

The point is that crit still sucks and I would still advise against stacking crit.

SO if armor penetration cannot pierce the tenacity dr that means all players are 40% more tanky if they have 2k tenacity. THAT is good thing and fit the logic " get pvp gear to stay alive"

reg1981 · July 2017

mamalion1234 said:

SO if armor penetration cannot pierce the tenacity dr that means all players are 40% more tanky if they have 2k tenacity. THAT is good thing and fit the logic " get pvp gear to stay alive"

Provided you CAN get decent gear! I'm still working on my first piece

Guild mark gear for now...

wintersmoke · July 2017

greywynd said:
They don't HAVE to give anything.

You're right... the devs don't have to give the players anything. And, the players don't have to waste their time in PvP. The population can stay so low that there is never any justification for making improvements.

greywynd · July 2017

And they admitted that Tenacity is a barrier to entry. Which leads to the elite PvPers ROFLStomping pugs for fun.

trentbail21 · July 2017

All they have to do is put tenacity on the character instead of the armor and it would be alot better.

armadeonx · July 2017

trentbail21 said:
All they have to do is put tenacity on the character instead of the armor and it would be alot better.

That's what they are going to do

sin · July 2017

bvira said:
Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)
Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)
Note: (DR-Attacker's Arp/2) ≥ 0

The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

[LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.

As a vet PvP player and in the best PvP team on xbox these are my thoughts,

Piercing dmg does need a nerf, combat Hr's hit way too hard but, if you nerf piercing dmg all together you're going to have every TR that isn't CB, go CB because SE will hit for pants....MOD11-12 will be all CC you will have trappers instead of combats and CB's instead of SE's, now anyone who knows this game inside and out will know that CB is the current meta, OPP is the current Meta.

The majority premades you see in PvP are either scrubs looking to climb broken pages, or a team trying to q sync another team and with the upcoming private q's you should see less top tier teams randomly smashing pugs. Smashing Pugs for us is as boring for us as it is for you sitting in campfire that I can assure you.

People moan about almost everything on this game there's always something, GWF's are pointless in pvp at the moment, TRs rely on AP gain and Cb and SE, with the upcoming changed to AP resist, GF's will hit like a truck now the GF's I play with like Akira and Elvis HIT HARD (The best on the game), you will be 1 rotated I can already see 1 shot bull charges coming back with these changes.

I feel that the majority of people in PvP do not play at top tier levels therefore they actually have no idea what they're talking about, if you enter PvP with low gear...or PvE gear expect to die swiftly and it's as simple as that

The PvP community and I'm talking the best in the game the 1% is small and the rivalry big and our goal isn't to just make a premed and destroy random low item level players as I mentioned above ITS BROING!

In terms of balance, this is hard, TRs will do no dmg with nerf to piercing....prehaps with some arpen a little but it won't be viable.

I could literally sit on this post for days telling people how WRONG they are.

Killing in PvP is only 50% of the game, rotation is just if not more important than getting kills this is what the vast majority of low tier pvpers forget.

I've tried to not sound arrogant on this post.

if you ever want to Q Sync team eVo hit me up

sin · July 2017

sin#5686 said:

bvira said:
Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)
Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)
Note: (DR-Attacker's Arp/2) ≥ 0

The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

[LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.
As a vet PvP player and in the best PvP team on xbox these are my thoughts,

Piercing dmg does need a nerf, combat Hr's hit way too hard but, if you nerf piercing dmg all together you're going to have every TR that isn't CB, go CB because SE will hit for pants....MOD11-12 will be all CC you will have trappers instead of combats and CB's instead of SE's, now anyone who knows this game inside and out will know that CB is the current meta, OPP is the current Meta.

The majority premades you see in PvP are either scrubs looking to climb broken pages, or a team trying to q sync another team and with the upcoming private q's you should see less top tier teams randomly smashing pugs. Smashing Pugs for us is as boring for us as it is for you sitting in campfire that I can assure you.

People moan about almost everything on this game there's always something, GWF's are pointless in pvp at the moment, TRs rely on AP gain and Cb and SE, with the upcoming changed to AP resist, GF's will hit like a truck now the GF's I play with like Akira and Elvis HIT HARD (The best on the game), you will be 1 rotated I can already see 1 shot bull charges coming back with these changes.

I feel that the majority of people in PvP do not play at top tier levels therefore they actually have no idea what they're talking about, if you enter PvP with low gear...or PvE gear expect to die swiftly and it's as simple as that

The PvP community and I'm talking the best in the game the 1% is small and the rivalry big and our goal isn't to just make a premed and destroy random low item level players as I mentioned above ITS BROING!

In terms of balance, this is hard, TRs will do no dmg with nerf to piercing....prehaps with some arpen a little but it won't be viable.

I could literally sit on this post for days telling people how WRONG they are.

Killing in PvP is only 50% of the game, rotation is just if not more important than getting kills this is what the vast majority of low tier pvpers forget.

I've tried to not sound arrogant on this post.

if you ever want to Q Sync team eVo hit me up

Adding to this if your stacking defence in PvP then I couldn't facepalm harder.

sh00termcl0vin · July 2017

Off topic:

Perma cc and cb skill-less "meta" days are numbered. Diminishing returns on cc in mod 12.5 will be the death blow. All hail our new skill-less double gift of faith cleric astral shield troll overlords.

On topic:

Defense should give a debuff "resistance" stat that not only reduces defensive debuffs, but offensive ones as well.

andre · July 2017

Hey, just remember I've been doing it as a dc for a while. I has great skills. ^

Seriously tho, with that change, and I assume a GF change, AS and gift of faith would probably get toned down

wintersmoke · July 2017

sin#5686 said:

bvira said:
Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)
Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)
Note: (DR-Attacker's Arp/2) ≥ 0

The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

[LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.
As a vet PvP player and in the best PvP team on xbox these are my thoughts,

Piercing dmg does need a nerf, combat Hr's hit way too hard but, if you nerf piercing dmg all together you're going to have every TR that isn't CB, go CB because SE will hit for pants....MOD11-12 will be all CC you will have trappers instead of combats and CB's instead of SE's, now anyone who knows this game inside and out will know that CB is the current meta, OPP is the current Meta.

The majority premades you see in PvP are either scrubs looking to climb broken pages, or a team trying to q sync another team and with the upcoming private q's you should see less top tier teams randomly smashing pugs. Smashing Pugs for us is as boring for us as it is for you sitting in campfire that I can assure you.

People moan about almost everything on this game there's always something, GWF's are pointless in pvp at the moment, TRs rely on AP gain and Cb and SE, with the upcoming changed to AP resist, GF's will hit like a truck now the GF's I play with like Akira and Elvis HIT HARD (The best on the game), you will be 1 rotated I can already see 1 shot bull charges coming back with these changes.

I feel that the majority of people in PvP do not play at top tier levels therefore they actually have no idea what they're talking about, if you enter PvP with low gear...or PvE gear expect to die swiftly and it's as simple as that

The PvP community and I'm talking the best in the game the 1% is small and the rivalry big and our goal isn't to just make a premed and destroy random low item level players as I mentioned above ITS BROING!

In terms of balance, this is hard, TRs will do no dmg with nerf to piercing....prehaps with some arpen a little but it won't be viable.

I could literally sit on this post for days telling people how WRONG they are.

Killing in PvP is only 50% of the game, rotation is just if not more important than getting kills this is what the vast majority of low tier pvpers forget.

I've tried to not sound arrogant on this post.

if you ever want to Q Sync team eVo hit me up

It doesn't matter what your goal is, the way the game is set up, destroying random low level players is what ends up happening more often then not. It doesn't really matter if you get bored doing it... you at least get to trade your boredom for rewards! That isn't the case for the team stuck @ the campfire. It is impossible to rotate, when you are facing an enemy that can hold each node against your team with a single player.

darkhells · August 2017

Pvp should be skill based not gear based. In real D&D you wouldn't be carrying a whole other set of gear just to fight other adventurers. "Hey before we fight let me change gear."

kalina311 · August 2017

@darkhells so you not prepare or change spells/ gear in advance of encounters in
"REAL" D&D

in real d&d you would/could be magically transported to the arena where upon you don your gear/prepare for battle (like in this game ) your hypothetical conversation would not take place
and bag space would not be monitized ;.. this is a fantasy MMO based on d&d

no one complains (monsters )in pve either when you swap gear taking 0 rounds to do so either
(recently they locked ability to change gear in combat tho ) if you want they can make it "real d&d" style maybe put a 10 min timer on the screen to "simulate" changing gear/ armor lol is that your suggestion ?

besides tenacity is removed from gear next mod anyways and players will still be carying around tons of pve gear you are welcome to one pve set if you want to avoid the suspension of disbelief
then again these are magical bags of holding

pvp should be skill based tho that i agree on but some people dont know how to gear or make builds/ too lazy to read / ask for help just like a player in "REAL" d&d might not know all the rulebooks or what powers the character is capable of and just want to get into a game but then get destroyed based on low "skill" as well and then claim it was not "FAIR"

cilginordek · August 2017

Is negation worth it?

Also, I checked the math a bit. If the formulas are correct, that means defense is still better than deflect until you have more than 50% tenacity dr (which no one does afaik). Effectiveness of HP compared to defense depends on how much HP you already have as usual.

finalfantasyac7 · September 2017

Burst damage and piercing ignores deflect. Don't stack too much of it... instead stack hp as much as you can.

Mod 12 Tenacity

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