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Mod 12: Please don't repeat the design mistakes of Mod 11
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
I expect we will be getting the first look at Mod 12 on Preview in the not-to-distant future. I am looking forward to it - yet at the same time I am worried that it will repeat some of the design mistakes of Mod 11.
Don't get me wrong - as I wrote in my guides
Mod 11: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hVZng0skcQW4dfH0Qy9bcBihAvw78Km4g7wm_eWRn_0/edit?usp=sharing
Mod 11-B: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qkkDNP1TvPpGYhor1okaa4eooKW5crWZ7BkAH5VEwvg/edit?usp=sharing
mods 11 and 11-B have many positive features - however, they also have annoying design flaws. Hence the subject of this post: Please do not repeat those mistakes in Mod 12 - not if you want to keep your remaining players and attract new ones, that is.
So, what are those mistakes?
The problem is what happens if the reward rate is too low. The rat may press the bar more frequently to compensate or it may give up - and the rat will give up if it has an alternative way of earning its rewards. The same applies to players, if you keep under-rewarding them, they might play/farm/pay more, but there is a high risk you will lose them to a different game where rewards feel more appropriate.
Back to the original topic - here are some examples of design flaws in Mod 11/11B where the rewards are lacking.
This does not apply to Mod 11. Once you are done with it, you are done - there is no reason whatsoever to come back. Consider for example the weekly quest. What am I supposed to do with the Secrets of the Many-Starred after I am done with the campaign? There is no sink for that currency. This is a clear example of a design flaw in my opinion.
Just compare the AH prices for the DC, DW and SW Masterwork weapons (which use Fartouched Residuum) to the corresponding items for the other classes. See the difference? There is no good justification for this - it is clear that this was simply not completely thought out before it was implemented.
The bottom line is basically that a number of mistakes were made in Mod 11, and we, the players, would really like not to see the same mistakes made in Mod 12.
I am actually going to repeat a suggestion I have made before - get a small, hand-picked group of players involved earlier in the development process, while there is still a chance to make design changes - Have them sign an NDA and forbid them to spread any information until the content is released on Preview, but use them to give you a better idea of what the player community actually wants. That will produce happier players, and in all probability players willing to spend more money on the game. A win-win.
Don't get me wrong - as I wrote in my guides
Mod 11: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hVZng0skcQW4dfH0Qy9bcBihAvw78Km4g7wm_eWRn_0/edit?usp=sharing
Mod 11-B: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qkkDNP1TvPpGYhor1okaa4eooKW5crWZ7BkAH5VEwvg/edit?usp=sharing
mods 11 and 11-B have many positive features - however, they also have annoying design flaws. Hence the subject of this post: Please do not repeat those mistakes in Mod 12 - not if you want to keep your remaining players and attract new ones, that is.
So, what are those mistakes?
Not giving players an appropriate reward for their efforts
This is the big one, and unfortunately I am starting to see this more and more. The basic fact is that players want to feel rewarded for the effort they put in - basic psychology, nothing more. The "rewards" can involve better (or better-looking) items or something which eventually allows people to get better gear. Like it or not, there are significant similarities between a game like this and an operant conditioning chamber (also known as a "Skinner box"). Basically, we are like rats pressing a bar, and occasionally getting rewarded. This is the case for the lockboxes, as well as the random dungeon drops.The problem is what happens if the reward rate is too low. The rat may press the bar more frequently to compensate or it may give up - and the rat will give up if it has an alternative way of earning its rewards. The same applies to players, if you keep under-rewarding them, they might play/farm/pay more, but there is a high risk you will lose them to a different game where rewards feel more appropriate.
Back to the original topic - here are some examples of design flaws in Mod 11/11B where the rewards are lacking.
- The Illusionist's Gambit. If you do not need or want the Mirage weapons, the only reason for doing this is the chance of getting companion gear. Nobody really cares about the increased refinement stone drops. However, the problem here is that the chance of getting a piece of gear you actually want is depressingly low. First because the +5 items are HAMSTER, second because even if you get a +4 Item you are simply unlikely to get the one you want - there are just too many combinations of gear and slot types.
- The Stronghold Marauders are another example of a failed design. There is pretty much universal consensus that it is worth running once per week for the +600 Influence weekly bonus, but continuing beyond the first 5 waves is just a silly waste of time, as the vouchers simply do not justify the time spent. Players had hoped this would be equally rewarding as the Dragonflight event, but that's just not the case - I am fairly certain that if you look at the numbers you will see that the DF event is run far more frequently than the Marauders.
- (Master) Spellplague Caverns. This is some of the hardest content in the game - but at the end you typically get just random salvage - nothing more than you could have gotten running something easier in a fraction of the time. Quite frankly, why should people bother with mSP? (I admit there is a chance of a Fartouched Residuum drop, and that sells for a nice amount, but the drop rate is so low that people do not seem to want to farm mSP for that).
Lack of replay value
I keep going back to some of the older campaigns, for example for the weekly quests - I regularly do the Portal to Tuern, The Arcane Reservoir, Biggrin's Tomb and the Dread Ring lairs for example. They give me various campaign currencies that I can either donate to my guild coffers or convert through campaign tasks into useful or valuable items.This does not apply to Mod 11. Once you are done with it, you are done - there is no reason whatsoever to come back. Consider for example the weekly quest. What am I supposed to do with the Secrets of the Many-Starred after I am done with the campaign? There is no sink for that currency. This is a clear example of a design flaw in my opinion.
Unfair or unbalanced content
Compared to the two previous issues this is just a minor annoyance, but still worth mentioning. The new Masterwork recipes added some special materials, like Dragon Turtle Scales, Fartouched Residuum, Manticore Hide, Manticore Mane and Relic Iron Ingot. The problem is that the availability of those items varies significantly, meaning that classes that need items using the rarer or more expensive materials are basically screwed.Just compare the AH prices for the DC, DW and SW Masterwork weapons (which use Fartouched Residuum) to the corresponding items for the other classes. See the difference? There is no good justification for this - it is clear that this was simply not completely thought out before it was implemented.
The bottom line is basically that a number of mistakes were made in Mod 11, and we, the players, would really like not to see the same mistakes made in Mod 12.
I am actually going to repeat a suggestion I have made before - get a small, hand-picked group of players involved earlier in the development process, while there is still a chance to make design changes - Have them sign an NDA and forbid them to spread any information until the content is released on Preview, but use them to give you a better idea of what the player community actually wants. That will produce happier players, and in all probability players willing to spend more money on the game. A win-win.
Hoping for improvements...
11
Comments
Never hurts to make your wishes known though.
Also, please stop adding deflect and regeneration as a stat in this game. Regeneration doesn't even work as it's supposed to, and deflect is a dead stat in everything except in pvp. My tanks don't even use deflect (it deflects heals), and anyone that wants to use deflect, for whatever reason, already has enough deflect.
It is disheartening to see these important issues brought up over and over, and not see any response from the devs. I'm hoping some will be addressed in today's Driftwood Tavern Stream.
For my the big mistake is restore system, and first of all the mod 10/10.5 with voninblod boons and feeding armors...after black ice i did not expect to see that system again in armors. so fail.
Taylor DC/DO & AC Buff/Debuff - Guild Gutbusters Brigade - PVE
The Mod 12 campaign has some nice aspects, but it is not flawless.
Taylor DC/DO & AC Buff/Debuff - Guild Gutbusters Brigade - PVE
Some of the new dungeons are HARD!...as they should be, we asked for harder content, but they are hard enough that everyone seems to shortcut, skip or avoid etc any part of it they can. I am sure this was not the intent and it is not 'fun' per say. I assume the rational is aligned with trying to get to the rewards as fast as possible. Potentially when we asked for harder dungeons we didn't really want to run them over and over again in hard mode, we just wanted to have a run to test our max IL toons here and there and the rest of the time we want rewards in a timely manner.
I think overall my favorite dungeons are those where contents of the dungeon get progressively harder as you get to the end and the last boss is the hard boss but in FBI and MSP the second boss seems to be the harder boss and has either issues or mechanics or toughness that is simply put, way beyond the IL for entry. Don't get me started on the giants going up the hill in FBI... I know the new IL changes should help this a bit but here are two example on these middle bosses:
FBI - at the turtle some companion types just flake out, fade out or dive in the water leaving you with significantly lower stats and no real way to revive them, and in the new system technically your IL would be much lower, maybe lower than the entry requirement and leaving some groups unable to pass this boss.
MSP - at whatever that thing in on the platform, some companions are frozen by the stone gaze mechanic leading to buffs of the boss that are really sort of out of our control (I know my companion rarely listens) and leaving a group unable to pass this boss.
Specifically back to hardness of the dungeons, I had a group of DPS players interested in running MSP with my pally to get to the hidden boss. They were all well above the minimum entry level requirements, all around 3.4 - 3.6K....and while maybe we should have made a better group composition of which classes, we did just fine cutting through the dungeon at a nice pace with a couple of deaths...but we just could not get past the second boss and it was mainly due to the boss buffs that build up and make it impassable. I have seen a similar things at the turtle.
It seems if you can't deliver maximum DPS to kill these bosses before it buffs, you are basically going to fail the run. These people spent tons of resources getting to the IL, unlocking the thing in the campaign and basically because they are not 4K stacked in the back DPS toons, they fail due to the speed of the kill and the resulting buffs. I don't think the new IL requirements will fix these two bosses.
I think either that buff mechanic should be removed or at least not used again for future bosses, or the companions should not misbehave (testing prior to release) or maybe even an option to bypass a boss with a penalty of no rewards at the end so min IL players can at least see the content you created without having to be carried.
My other main thought to add is on the required repetitiveness for some of the materials or currency. I really liked the RD composition with make your own dailies and options on how to farm. It was a fresh take on dailies, even tho they are still dailies....my one wish from RD was to not have to do the exact same liar quest over and over and over... 35 times to be specific for the materials for weapons and I did two sets of weapons. I found myself wishing I had to do 10 of each instead of 35 of one, its monotonous, laborious, tedious, boring...etc (these are not synonyms will fun).
I think the repetition ride is well suited for events, they are highly optional, you want more you repeat more but in something that is a lot less optional, like weapons, it would be nice to have a little more variety in quests to get the materials (or even a trade in station so we can grind the easy one or mix it up to prevent boredom). Thanks though for not making the dust drops RNG, that could have been much worse
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
Now a lot of ppl have voiced their opinion against locking dungeons behind a horrendous grind and i support that too, pls don't do it and if you are going to go ahead with it, then make it an account wide unlock as the underdark campaign.
Now with respect to how dailies are being designed, i liked the freedom you did give with the cloaked ascendancy to progress with it as we see fit, but it still quite long because it required doing that particular activity 5 times which was honestly a bit too much, 3 would have been great. I can understand you want ppl to play through the new zones you design but you really shouldnt be subjecting them to spend a lot of time as per the design. I like how the maze engine dailies were structured.. It rewarded you well and the daily wasn't time intensive either.
P.S