Low cost CW

trzebiat · April 2017

Looking for an advice. I'm currently running near BiS OP on PS4 and I was looking for something different, a class that's not expensive (gear and boons wise) to be effective and could use some of the stuff I have on OP, so I think full support buff/debuff CW would make the most sense. And I do love playing support. I made a CW and got him to lvl 60 to get the feeling of the class, but now I'm considering buying the pack with lvl 70 character, especially since it comes with 2 runic bags and would save me the trouble getting through EE campaign. I went through CW guide by @thefabricant and from what I understand the best would be to go for MoF Rene, pure support build since I'd play mostly with highly geared or near BiS people. Trying to go for DPS would require serious investments in gear and companions, but with going for full buff/debuff I wouldn't need to care about personal damage, right? Doing dailies and stuff like that shouldn't be problem either I think.

I'd be grateful for some advices what should I aim for and how to use what I already have. What I could easily afford is of course Drow shirt/pants, Lesser Soulforge, set of R8 Azures and Darks, Dusk set for starting and I can always borrow some stuff from my OP. I'm currently sitting at: R12 Bondings, Trans Frost (which would fit perfectly), R10/11 Radiants, two R11 Brutals, two R11 Black Ice, but I'd also prefer to not go bankrupt on gold. I have some account bound stuff sitting in my inventory like blue Imperial Dragon cloak or head from Shores.

I'd go with Drow race for Darkfire, get myself Burning set. I want to go purely support but I'm wondering about couple things.
1) Should I still go for INT and Valindra belt or go full on WIS/CHA with Tiamat Sash or Lathander Belt for Crit and AP Gain? I should still stack Crit to reliably proc feats, right? Do I need full Valindra set or can I go with any of mentioned belts and Imperial Dragon cloak for stats?
2) Since I'd play mostly with OP would it make sense to stack HP to benefit from Aura of Courage for damage if I don't plan investing in DPS companions or other things to improve my personal damage? Is the 50k HP armor worth to use then and even some Radiants in defense slots while stacking Life Steal mainly on companion?
3) I was thinking about using Con Artist/Sellsword for the debuff, but I see Dancing Shield also suggested, is it really worth using for that 20% debuff even though it's a defender? Wouldn't it mess with aggro for a tank? 3 defense slots would really help to be more tanky, no issue when I won't care about my damage. What easily accessible gear and with what stats would work the best?
4) Should I go for Chilling Advantage or Abyss of Chaos? Fight On 5/5 and Controlling Action 2/5 at the cost of Weapon Mastery and Wizard's Wrath or take that crit chance and damage?
5) I have some +5 and +4 Underdark rings, which ones would be the best from these: Rising Focus +5, Rising Defense +5 (both reinforced AP Gain), Brutality +5, Sudden Precision +5, Rising Power +4, Rising Precision +4, Rising Life Steal +4, Sudden Defense +4, Sudden Life Steal +4.
6) I don't have any good offensive account unlock mount equip powers, just Arpen, Defense, HP, Movement (because of Assassin's Covenant). Arpen should be good to hit the cap I suppose.
7) What cheap companions would be good to fill the empty spots?
8) About artifacts, DC Sigil or Lantern should be good as active? How about Horn of Valhalla and Manticore Talon for stats (stacking crit and also HP for AoC)?

metalicum1 · April 2017

I"m not the expert here but if you wanna do full debuff build. Prepare to face several not as pleasant things. If you have a stable party which needs to cap DR debuffs, it's the way to go. That's how I play it (or try to). otherwise:

1) most early game pugs hates you because you do 0 paingiver results (and they care about nothing else).
2)Most late game parties don't need you, because DC is the stupidest thing that ever happened to this game, it's essential and more capable than MoF in doing everything. End game parties run 2 DCs for best results (they cap DR debuff on their own).
3)99% of people have no idea what you're doing and how you benefit the party.
4)You will always be the odd man out. Never essential, never BiS.
to sup it up: It's a fun build, really good if played correctly, but I would play it only in a stable party.

If you want to play Master of Flame, make a standard DPS setup for MoF Thaum with Abyss of Chaoss, Con Artist main companion with archon crew, crit severity companion, and then alter between Wheel of elements + Chilling presence for DPS, and Sigil of the devoted and Combustive Action class feature if you need additional DR debuff. Currently you will always have at least 1 DC in your group anyway (HASMTERRRR that).

trzebiat · April 2017

The thing is I don't want to aim for DPS because I don't want to invest much which would be necessary, this is going to be an alt. Archons alone are a big investment, artifacts like Wheel too, not even to mention Lightning or Vorpal, and without that my DPS would be mediocre at best. I have regular group of friends and we mostly run together, usually with 1 DC, and they'll understand my goals. Counting all DR debuffs we're still below the cap, but we usually run 5 Con Artists. Pugs won't be a problem, I mainly run with guild or alliance. I want to bring the most utility to the party at the lowest gearing cost.

metalicum1 · April 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:
The thing is I don't want to aim for DPS because I don't want to invest much which would be necessary, this is going to be an alt. Archons alone are a big investment, artifacts like Wheel too, not even to mention Lightning or Vorpal, and without that my DPS would be mediocre at best. I have regular group of friends and we mostly run together, usually with 1 DC, and they'll understand my goals. Counting all DR debuffs we're still below the cap, but we usually run 5 Con Artists. Pugs won't be a problem, I mainly run with guild or alliance. I want to bring the most utility to the party at the lowest gearing cost.

Con Artist is not relevant to the cap as far as I know.
But yeah, I guess you can make a budget debuffer. The only thing essential for that is, I think, Sigil of the devoted mythic. With that you can almost ensure 100% uptime for Combustive + swath debuffs (44%), and if you pay attention to smolder stacking it's 66%. Then you slot RoE for additional 17.5% (83.5%). Darkfire 88.5%, and the rest might be done by the DC. you can add TRans Plaguefire and ConArtist for additional 21% not affected by the cap.
Use spell twisting, you don't need the oppressor path at all. (plus if you have Icy Veins say bye bye to smolder stacking)
Chilling advantage is useless: you never slot Chilling Presence, you always play Swath + Combustive
For pure support you can try to go full Tiamat set (not that the bonus is relevant, the stats are, but again it depends on your budget)
Or you can go for Dragon artifacts and Black Dragon artifact as main, that you will need AP gain from somewhere else in order to ensure 100% uptime on all basic debuffs.
Again, I should point out I'm not the expert here, I'm still learining new things everyday, so try to speak with as many MoFs out there.

oria1 · April 2017

CW is still very needed and i m not sure why there is this false idea that everything is about the cap. we bring in the table a lot more that just that. Some are more needed than others, sure, but yet we can bring those in the team.

First i would go for drow as you said and spec for int/wis for the recharge speed, ap gain, and control bonus you get and for the same reason wisdom belt is a better choice, but not by much.

Dancing shield for debuffs and use Jewell crafting to make the belts you ll need.

Frost enchant has some advantage over plaguefire but all deepens on budget as frost only debuffs at last stage while plague from low ranks.

As far as caps go a cw can go to "a bit higher" levels than 200% but also one important factor is that can keep the debuffs uptime a lot better that other classes and that's a factor that most people don't think. Also Fury for +30% dmg for 33% of the time (actually it has a bit bit more up time) the extra critical and heals here and there and the control helps the team focus better on dps and the clerics to focus on buffs. CW also makes bosses/mobs deal less dmg to the party.

To be honest in my opinion what the game needs its people that know and love the class they play. I've seen cw's that don't know what to do with wrong gears/item choices and others that do wonders. I saw clerics only press 1 for daily and don't know how to react when things go a bit south. Its all about the player and not the pixels most of the time. I'm observing tho lately a tendency to make a cleric VS cw thing and I'm not sure why is that. The synergy between the 2 classes is phenomenal.

And as a last note CW has a unique thing that most others don't. In large scale content ( anything more than 5, like tiamat, edemo, msva dragon run in WoD and stronghold etc) the cw, debuffs and buffs for all the people near him and not just for the other 4 in party.

I ll be happy to provide any information you need and welcome the the "dark side" :P

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

trzebiat · April 2017

oria1 said:
First i would go for drow as you said and spec for int/wis for the recharge speed, ap gain, and control bonus you get and for the same reason wisdom belt is a better choice, but not by much.

Since my damage will suck and for sure I won't be going for highest rank enchantments nor DPS companions, wouldn't it be better to go for initial roll 16 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA (+2 CHA from Drow) and putting all points into WIS and CHA? INT gives 1% Recharge Speed = 200 Recovery, while CHA gives 1% Crit Chance = 400 Crit and also CA bonus and Companion Influence. I was thinking about going for that with Tiamat belt INT/CHA and Power/Crit/Recovery. I want to get it right at the beginning so I won't need to respec or worse reroll race later.

oria1 said:
Dancing shield for debuffs and use Jewell crafting to make the belts you ll need.

So it's OK to run a defender on non tank in this case? Doesn't Dancing Shield steal aggro from a tank?

oria1 said:
Frost enchant has some advantage over plaguefire but all deepens on budget as frost only debuffs at last stage while plague from low ranks.

I have Trans Frost on OP I'll be switching with bondings.

oria1 · April 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:

Since my damage will suck and for sure I won't be going for highest rank enchantments nor DPS companions, wouldn't it be better to go for initial roll 16 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA (+2 CHA from Drow) and putting all points into WIS and CHA? INT gives 1% Recharge Speed = 200 Recovery, while CHA gives 1% Crit Chance = 400 Crit and also CA bonus and Companion Influence. I was thinking about going for that with Tiamat belt INT/CHA and Power/Crit/Recovery. I want to get it right at the beginning so I won't need to respec or worse reroll race later.

I don't care for any kind of damage on my char so critical is not for me. I run with 30 wisdom and 25 int and focused on recovery/power gears since I don't use spelltwist. I have 18.8% crit +30% crit from nexus which is more than enough to proc whatever feats use critical hits in a given boss fight. After all int is also bonus damage so there is that too. For the same reason I went with Wisdom belt cause at 30 wis I have 20% on recharge speed, ap gain !!!, and control/control resist bonuses. The reason is, that in that way I can cast skills so fast (and daily powers) that mobs stay permanently controlled and keep the debuff up at near 100% of the time.

trzebiat#2067 said:
So it's OK to run a defender on non tank in this case? Doesn't Dancing Shield steal aggro from a tank?

All have to do with the positioning. I let the tank attack 1st and then I attack right behind him once, that makes the shield go at the same spot where tank is and they both get hit. If the tank goes down the shield can hold boss for me to rez him so there is that too.

dairyzeus · April 2017

IMO (and I'll probably get a lot of flak for this) the best MoF support build still has a focus on dealing damage.

Run 21 in renegade for all the buffs and 15 in thaum for spell twisting. Use swath and combustive action for your debuffs. Because all of your buffs and debuffs are just inherent to you using your abilities, and getting crits, you're now free to focus on damage. Go for full power/crit ignoring recovery because you have spell twisting.

The only thing you lose going with that build instead of 21 renegade and 15 oppressor is icy veins. Since you're not using chilling presence the loss of quickly stacking chill doesn't affect your damage. Thus, the only thing that icy veins would give you is a bit more control. I personally can't justify losing spell twisting to get more control.

The other advantage to the spelltwisting build is that if, down the line, you decide to go DPS, your gear should already be where you want it. Making switching between the two with loadouts a lot simpler and cheaper.

The downside is you'll still want to build like a dps, meaning dps companions, artifacts, ect... However, the build is still effective without them and you can just slowly add them over time if you get the resources to do so.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

dairyzeus said:
IMO (and I'll probably get a lot of flak for this) the best MoF support build still has a focus on dealing damage.

Run 21 in renegade for all the buffs and 15 in thaum for spell twisting. Use swath and combustive action for your debuffs. Because all of your buffs and debuffs are just inherent to you using your abilities, and getting crits, you're now free to focus on damage. Go for full power/crit ignoring recovery because you have spell twisting.

The only thing you lose going with that build instead of 21 renegade and 15 oppressor is icy veins. Since you're not using chilling presence the loss of quickly stacking chill doesn't affect your damage. Thus, the only thing that icy veins would give you is a bit more control. I personally can't justify losing spell twisting to get more control.

The other advantage to the spelltwisting build is that if, down the line, you decide to go DPS, your gear should already be where you want it. Making switching between the two with loadouts a lot simpler and cheaper.

The downside is you'll still want to build like a dps, meaning dps companions, artifacts, ect... However, the build is still effective without them and you can just slowly add them over time if you get the resources to do so.

OR based to this logic no need to try to debuff since the 2 dc will give the 200% with gf and the paladin and you can focus dps.

oria1 · April 2017

No flak here, there is always room for all thoughts and builds and that's how people make progress

Some of the things you are saying are right but you miss some points of the debuffer in my opinion.

Best is different for every person, but when we talk in numbers some things are absolute.

1st with spelltwist you have to cast some things in order... First 3 skills then at-will and repeat. Which at the end, causes a delay itself sometimes, On top that doesn't give you all that much AP gain which is an important factor. I run (at full buffed) with 194% recharge speed and 118%-121% AP gain, not counting snail, burning weapons, and other things. I can cast a daily every 6-9 seconds which means my debuffs are up 99% of the time. With your build if you check ACT you will see a fluctuation on the debuff intensity and the DPS classes will lose dps if they do their big hitters while you are on cooldown. Also by going 15 on oppressor you get bitter cold and frigid winds which is extra debuff too.

In fight you wont be able to always control your rotations too, sometimes you will need to dodge or cast, an at-will or a skill when you don't want and that will make you ,since you wont have full or at all spelltwist stacks, to go very slow.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the way you wanna play, but you will not be a 100% dedicated debuffer.

You are right though, IF you plan to change later to dps will make things easier. Its all up to choice.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

disposablehero · April 2017

Spell twisting renegade here, I can't recommend this build more. It's very fun even though you won't ever be topping the charts, the other things you bring to the table are too good to pass up. My guild buddies want me on every run because I make everything easier for them, especially our clerics. Ren has great synergy with DC's buffs and with spell twisting you can stack power and critical strike to contribute some extra damage. I also stack armor pen but that's not explicitly required due to Nexus. Absolutely get nightmare wizardry though, your buddies will love you for it.

dairyzeus · April 2017

oria1 said:
No flak here, there is always room for all thoughts and builds and that's how people make progress Some of the things you are saying are right but you miss some points of the debuffer in my opinion.

Best is different for every person, but when we talk in numbers some things are absolute.

1st with spelltwist you have to cast some things in order... First 3 skills then at-will and repeat. Which at the end, causes a delay itself sometimes, On top that doesn't give you all that much AP gain which is an important factor. I run (at full buffed) with 194% recharge speed and 118%-121% AP gain, not counting snail, burning weapons, and other things. I can cast a daily every 6-9 seconds which means my debuffs are up 99% of the time. With your build if you check ACT you will see a fluctuation on the debuff intensity and the DPS classes will lose dps if they do their big hitters while you are on cooldown. Also by going 15 on oppressor you get bitter cold and frigid winds which is extra debuff too.

In fight you wont be able to always control your rotations too, sometimes you will need to dodge or cast, an at-will or a skill when you don't want and that will make you ,since you wont have full or at all spelltwist stacks, to go very slow.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the way you wanna play, but you will not be a 100% dedicated debuffer.

You are right though, IF you plan to change later to dps will make things easier. Its all up to choice.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

On my SS thaum wizard with minimal recovery I can get off a daily around every 10 seconds (depending on group). When you add on the extra ap gain from combustive action a MoF wizard should have no problems getting off oppressive forces every 9 seconds to keep combustive action debuff at 100% uptime.

As far as spelltwisting messing up rotations, I've never had an issue. It's probably an experience/playstyle thing.

I consider bitter cold absolutely worthless if you're running MoF, because any group that you're in should already easily be hitting the debuff cap without it.

Frigid winds is only good against mobs that can't be frozen (minimal amounts in FBI/MSVA) and the mobs that can be frozen tend to die so quick that frigid winds doesn't even come into play. Especially since you can't take both frigid winds and icy veins at the same time.

For all of those reasons, I just don't see any benefit at all of going into the oppressor tree for a buff/debuff build.

If you go 15 into thaum you provide the same buffs, debuffs, and just plain do more damage.

oria1 · April 2017

dairyzeus said:

On my SS thaum wizard with minimal recovery I can get off a daily around every 10 seconds (depending on group). When you add on the extra ap gain from combustive action a MoF wizard should have no problems getting off oppressive forces every 9 seconds to keep combustive action debuff at 100% uptime.

"Combustive Action When one of your Smolder target is killed, gain 1% of your max Action points". So you have to keep killing a LOT to get 100% AP in 10 sec which is hard in FBI and MSVA. So just to compare apples to apples, my AP gain is just from me, if I'll run with dc and paladin in group i can get a daily every 2-3 sec. Kinda useless but fun.

dairyzeus said:

As far as spelltwisting messing up rotations, I've never had an issue. It's probably an experience/playstyle thing.

I didn't say it messes up, I said you need to keep the pace or you end up with long cooldowns, and that will happen sometimes, something I dont have to even think about since i have a 5.8 sec stealtime and 3.8 sec icy terrain to name a few and on top more relaxed playstyle. I was a dps cw before and I know how spelltwist can be.

dairyzeus said:
I consider bitter cold absolutely worthless if you're running MoF, because any group that you're in should already easily be hitting the debuff cap without it.
Frigid winds is only good against mobs that can't be frozen (minimal amounts in FBI/MSVA) and the mobs that can be frozen tend to die so quick that frigid winds doesn't even come into play. Especially since you can't take both frigid winds and icy veins at the same time.

There is a entire world outside FBI and not every group is uber so I adjust for all situations. Just think of the 1st mobs in CN and all like them as an example. I can stun and debuff them to the point a cleric, can kill them without getting hit at all. We did a Spellplague with a 3.3 group (some had blue weapons) in 40 min and almost no deaths. Its not all about the 4Ks

dairyzeus said:

For all of those reasons, I just don't see any benefit at all of going into the oppressor tree for a buff/debuff build.

If you go 15 into thaum you provide the same buffs, debuffs, and just plain do more damage.

Not same...

The build you describe wont pass the 200% mark but a pure debuffer will be at 289-330% (depends on luck and dungeon) and on top you wont have full debuffs, for the duration of the fight, for like 30-45% of time while the other build will.

Nothing wrong with being hybrid though, it has its role and purpose too. Some people like both damage and utility and its something I'm considering too, now with the new "Loadouts" coming soon to Neverwinter.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

dairyzeus · April 2017

oria1 said:

dairyzeus said:

On my SS thaum wizard with minimal recovery I can get off a daily around every 10 seconds (depending on group). When you add on the extra ap gain from combustive action a MoF wizard should have no problems getting off oppressive forces every 9 seconds to keep combustive action debuff at 100% uptime.
Combustive Action When one of your Smolder target is killed, gain 1% of your max Action points. So you have to keep killing a LOT to get 100% AP in 10 sec which is hard in FBI and MSVA. So just to compare apples to apples, my AP gain is just from me, if I'll run with dc and paladin in group i can get a daily every 2-3 sec. Kinda useless but fun.
dairyzeus said:

As far as spelltwisting messing up rotations, I've never had an issue. It's probably an experience/playstyle thing.
I didn't say it messes up, I said you need to keep the pace or you end up with long cooldowns, and that will happen sometimes, something I dont have to even think about since i have a 5.8 sec stealtime and 3.8 sec icy terrain to name a few and on top more relaxed playstyle. I was a dps cw before and I know how spelltwist can be.
dairyzeus said:
I consider bitter cold absolutely worthless if you're running MoF, because any group that you're in should already easily be hitting the debuff cap without it.
Frigid winds is only good against mobs that can't be frozen (minimal amounts in FBI/MSVA) and the mobs that can be frozen tend to die so quick that frigid winds doesn't even come into play. Especially since you can't take both frigid winds and icy veins at the same time.
There is a entire world outside FBI and not every group is uber so I adjust for all situations. Just think of the 1st mobs in CN and all like them as an example. I can stun and debuff them to the point a cleric, can kill them without getting hit at all. We did a Spellplague with a 3.3 group (some had blue weapons) in 40 min and almost no deaths. Its not all about the 4Ks
dairyzeus said:

For all of those reasons, I just don't see any benefit at all of going into the oppressor tree for a buff/debuff build.

If you go 15 into thaum you provide the same buffs, debuffs, and just plain do more damage.
Not same...

The build you describe wont pass the 200% mark but a pure debuffer will be at 289-330% (depends on luck and dungeon) and on top you wont have full debuffs, for the duration of the fight, for like 30-45% of time while the other build will.

Nothing wrong with being hybrid though, it has its role and purpose too. Some people like both damage and utility and its something I'm considering too, now with the new "Loadouts" coming soon to Neverwinter.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

Yeah, this build is aimed at the typical 5 man end game party (which has a cleric). Between you and the cleric you'll easily be at the debuff cap. Not to mention the debuffs other classes bring. Hitting the cap is really pretty easy, which is why I feel going out of the way for extra debuffs is largely pointless.

I still disagree on the debuff uptime. You can definitely keep 100% uptime on oppressive force (which triggers all your debuffs) without a recovery build.

To each their own though, I definitely don't think the recovery build is bad. It does everything people expect from a buff/debuff mof. I just think you can also do a bit of extra damage.

oria1 · April 2017

dairyzeus said:

Yeah, this build is aimed at the typical 5 man end game party (which has a cleric). Between you and the cleric you'll easily be at the debuff cap. Not to mention the debuffs other classes bring. Hitting the cap is really pretty easy, which is why I feel going out of the way for extra debuffs is largely pointless.

I still disagree on the debuff uptime. You can definitely keep 100% uptime on oppressive force (which triggers all your debuffs) without a recovery build.

To each their own though, I definitely don't think the recovery build is bad. It does everything people expect from a buff/debuff mof. I just think you can also do a bit of extra damage.

So you say in a typical 5 man you can do 1 OF every 9 sec (that how long the combustive lasts). In a 2 min boss fight you ll have to do 13 Oppressive forces.

I do often end game runs without clerics (pally heal, or SW temp. don't like to exclude people and classes.) and in t2/cn runs we can do them in any combo very fast (no cleric or no tank if we can't find one) with same efficiency.

Again I ll remind you there is a way for a debuff cw to break the 200% barrier, as it doesn't apply to all debuffs and as an example I'll use myself
This is a duo run in etos with a GWF, without debuff artifact and wep enchant but I was using the dancing shield, (I use black dragon and frost) cause i was testing another enchant. ( Not debuff one)

To close this I ll just say that as a dps you wont go the "extra mile" and use frost, or dancing shield, or any debuff artifacts that will add to the debuff cause if you do use those, you wont do much damage anyway. I can focus on support mount powers and not camaraderie or friendship which make the party even stronger (more defense for them etc) and that is what makes the difference between hybrid and pure debuff.

Voodoo
MoF debuffer.

dairyzeus · April 2017

oria1 said:

dairyzeus said:

Yeah, this build is aimed at the typical 5 man end game party (which has a cleric). Between you and the cleric you'll easily be at the debuff cap. Not to mention the debuffs other classes bring. Hitting the cap is really pretty easy, which is why I feel going out of the way for extra debuffs is largely pointless.

I still disagree on the debuff uptime. You can definitely keep 100% uptime on oppressive force (which triggers all your debuffs) without a recovery build.

To each their own though, I definitely don't think the recovery build is bad. It does everything people expect from a buff/debuff mof. I just think you can also do a bit of extra damage.
So you say in a typical 5 man you can do 1 OF every 9 sec (that how long the combustive lasts). In a 2 min boss fight you ll have to do 13 Oppressive forces.

I do often end game runs without clerics (pally heal, or SW temp. don't like to exclude people and classes.) and in t2/cn runs we can do them in any combo very fast (no cleric or no tank if we can't find one) with same efficiency.

Again I ll remind you there is a way for a debuff cw to break the 200% barrier, as it doesn't apply to all debuffs and as an example I'll use myself
This is a duo run in etos with a GWF, without debuff artifact and wep enchant but I was using the dancing shield, (I use black dragon and frost) cause i was testing another enchant. ( Not debuff one)

To close this I ll just say that as a dps you wont go the "extra mile" and use frost, or dancing shield, or any debuff artifacts that will add to the debuff cause if you do use those, you wont do much damage anyway. I can focus on support mount powers and not camaraderie or friendship which make the party even stronger (more defense for them etc) and that is what makes the difference between hybrid and pure debuff.

Voodoo
MoF debuffer.

Woah, I never said not to use any of the support artifacts, companions, enchantments, ect... The only change I make from the standard support build is the feat (and thus stat allocation) changes.

I do literally everything your build will do in terms of buffs and debuffs, but I run around with more power because I don't have to spec into recovery, and two extra (albeit small) damage feats from the thaum tree.

I guess my main point is that your build goes over the top in a lot of areas that I don't feel you need to. For example, you can absolutely pop off more oppressive forces than I could, but do you need to? Not in my opinion.

I'm also only arguing in the context of a well geared end game oriented group. If that's not the point somewhat is at in the game, then they may obviously benefit from various tweaks and changes for their specific needs.

oria1 · April 2017

My friend, part of a "build" is also the items/enchants/mounts/companions etc we use. Most all GWFs use same feats, all thauma cw same too and so are the renegades but they don't do same dmg right? (or debuff) The stats you choose will compliment or not what you are aiming for.

and yes you do need O.F that fast, or close to that, to keep debuffs up 100% of the time or they are not 100% of the time up. You cant have it both ways. In a CN fight we kill the boss in 10-30 sec (depends on squad) and part of that is doing 3-4 O.F during that time (even without a cleric).

All I'm saying is tho you do offer a lot to the party (both debuff and dps) truth is that hybrid build never does either very well. Jack of all trades but master of none.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

metalicum1 · April 2017

oria1 said:
My friend, part of a "build" is also the items/enchants/mounts/companions etc we use. Most all GWFs use same feats, all thauma cw same too and so are the renegades but they don't do same dmg right? (or debuff) The stats you choose will compliment or not what you are aiming for.

and yes you do need O.F that fast, or close to that, to keep debuffs up 100% of the time or they are not 100% of the time up. You cant have it both ways. In a CN fight we kill the boss in 10-30 sec (depends on squad) and part of that is doing 3-4 O.F during that time (even without a cleric).

All I'm saying is tho you do offer a lot to the party (both debuff and dps) truth is that hybrid build never does either very well. Jack of all trades but master of none.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

I can only say that with 5k recovery, all AP gain boons and feats, 2 spirit companions, and a cleric in a party I can't keep the combustive debuff all the time. I can make 3 cycles with Sigil of the Devoted but after that it's at least 3-4 seconds away (not even mentioning when things go south, or something like the manticore fight in FbI). I don't know how he does that, but I also remember Sharp saying somewhere it's possible without recovery, I don't know how.
I tried to play a recovery build and it worked just as you say.

dairyzeus · April 2017

oria1 said:
My friend, part of a "build" is also the items/enchants/mounts/companions etc we use. Most all GWFs use same feats, all thauma cw same too and so are the renegades but they don't do same dmg right? (or debuff) The stats you choose will compliment or not what you are aiming for.

and yes you do need O.F that fast, or close to that, to keep debuffs up 100% of the time or they are not 100% of the time up. You cant have it both ways. In a CN fight we kill the boss in 10-30 sec (depends on squad) and part of that is doing 3-4 O.F during that time (even without a cleric).

All I'm saying is tho you do offer a lot to the party (both debuff and dps) truth is that hybrid build never does either very well. Jack of all trades but master of none.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

You can spec the rest of your character however you want. You could literally run your entire build but just switch your recovery investment into power and use spelltwisting. You could also spec more dps if you desired. It's personal preference. It's also not the point i'm debating with you.

My primary argument is that the 15 points into the oppressor tree are essentially pointless when playing with a standard end game group.

Obviously if you disagree with that, then we disagree at a fundamental level and this debate is pointless

Also, I am 100% confident that I can get a daily off every 9 seconds with my build which means 100% combustive action debuff uptime. If I wasn't confident I could do that, I wouldn't recommend the build as your primary role is still to buff/debuff.

oria1 · April 2017

dairyzeus said:

You can spec the rest of your character however you want. You could literally run your entire build but just switch your recovery investment into power and use spelltwisting. You could also spec more dps if you desired. It's personal preference. It's also not the point i'm debating with you.

My primary argument is that the 15 points into the oppressor tree are essentially pointless when playing with a standard end game group.

Obviously if you disagree with that, then we disagree at a fundamental level and this debate is pointless

Also, I am 100% confident that I can get a daily off every 9 seconds with my build which means 100% combustive action debuff uptime. If I wasn't confident I could do that, I wouldn't recommend the build as your primary role is still to buff/debuff.

Ok so lets say you go for spelltwisting...

1st you will lose twisting immolation feat which grands extra stun and more important extra duration to combustive by 2.5 sec so your debuff from Ice Knife or F.I will last for less and therefore less debuff for the party.

2nd you gain at best 30% recharge which is 6000 recovery, so lets say you gain 6000 power instead and that's about 10% dmg gain. and still it doesn't help with AP gain at all. Is it worth it? also you will have to go from WIS to INT/CHA which will make things even worse and I don't assume you will be a drow either.

The implication that I maybe didn't make clear was that by going for dps the rest of your choices will benefit the team even less. probably one will go for dread enchant and not frost/plague. Will have to use wheel of elements or sigil of devoted or gond (wink wink!!) which last I checked they don't debuff either. You will have to use fire archon (tho a sellsword or con artist would help, but still less debuff than shield) and on and on. Just by mentioning this list one would have a a good 65%-80% less debuff potential for the entire team. As en example, in msva, if you think that, you gaining even a 50% more dmg is better than 6 DPS gaining 80% more dmg then we do have a difference in a fundamental level.

And last but not least its not always end game content with end game teams. Sadly hybrid build don't have any place at end game. A pure buff/debuff (cleric or cw or even sw) with a well build DPS will do a lot better than a cleric/hybrid combo any time of the day and please remember that we give advice and all sort of people read what we write, from the ones that just joined the game and are hardly 1600 IL to the ones that are playing for 4 years now, so my main thought is to provide info and facts and let people choose what they want to be.

In that respect, any build that is played from a capable player will do well and serve its purpose, but when it comes to debuff and specially low cost as the original poster stated, there aren't many options one can pick.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

trzebiat · April 2017

Thank you for all the tips. I ended up going for INT/WIS, full Valindra set, Dancing Shield (missing good gear for it), R10/R11 Radiants in offense (my OP won't miss them that much for a while), Dusk Raid but I'm thinking about using Assault for the Arpen and Dragon Visage head plus armor from Valindra once I get another one, Burning weapons (forgot how good they were). I'm set with insignia bonuses I think - Protectors Camarederie, Assassin's Covenant, Gladiator's Guile, Shepherd's Devotion and Wanderer's Fortune/Magistrate's Patience/Artificer (once I get artifact to mythic). I'm using this setup of feats: http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/cw?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13j3ick:1000000:1z00u00:1z05uu1&h=0&p=mof&o=0

My damage sucks really big, just as expected for now with no boons (I beat BiS DC though, which is nice), but seeing how everything melts is just beautiful.

Could you give me some tips about the rotation to use on soloing dailies/trash/bosses with adds/single target bosses? Especially the correct/best order to use powers to be the most effective. And that double Swath debuff.

So far I've been using Combustive Action + Swath (off-hand), Chilling Cloud (main-hand) + Scorching Burst, Oppressive Force (mainly) + Furious Immolation. Fanning the Flame (Mastery) to apply Smoulder or Conduit of Ice (Mastery) for single target bosses, Icy Terrain, Ray of Enfeeblement, Steal Time for trash or Chill Strike for single target bosses.

dairyzeus · April 2017

oria1 said:

dairyzeus said:

You can spec the rest of your character however you want. You could literally run your entire build but just switch your recovery investment into power and use spelltwisting. You could also spec more dps if you desired. It's personal preference. It's also not the point i'm debating with you.

My primary argument is that the 15 points into the oppressor tree are essentially pointless when playing with a standard end game group.

Obviously if you disagree with that, then we disagree at a fundamental level and this debate is pointless

Also, I am 100% confident that I can get a daily off every 9 seconds with my build which means 100% combustive action debuff uptime. If I wasn't confident I could do that, I wouldn't recommend the build as your primary role is still to buff/debuff.

Ok so lets say you go for spelltwisting...

1st you will lose twisting immolation feat which grands extra stun and more important extra duration to combustive by 2.5 sec so your debuff from Ice Knife or F.I will last for less and therefore less debuff for the party.

2nd you gain at best 30% recharge which is 6000 recovery, so lets say you gain 6000 power instead and that's about 10% dmg gain. and still it doesn't help with AP gain at all. Is it worth it? also you will have to go from WIS to INT/CHA which will make things even worse and I don't assume you will be a drow either.

The implication that I maybe didn't make clear was that by going for dps the rest of your choices will benefit the team even less. probably one will go for dread enchant and not frost/plague. Will have to use wheel of elements or sigil of devoted or gond (wink wink!!) which last I checked they don't debuff either. You will have to use fire archon (tho a sellsword or con artist would help, but still less debuff than shield) and on and on. Just by mentioning this list one would have a a good 65%-80% less debuff potential for the entire team. As en example, in msva, if you think that, you gaining even a 50% more dmg is better than 6 DPS gaining 80% more dmg then we do have a difference in a fundamental level.

And last but not least its not always end game content with end game teams. Sadly hybrid build don't have any place at end game. A pure buff/debuff (cleric or cw or even sw) with a well build DPS will do a lot better than a cleric/hybrid combo any time of the day and please remember that we give advice and all sort of people read what we write, from the ones that just joined the game and are hardly 1600 IL to the ones that are playing for 4 years now, so my main thought is to provide info and facts and let people choose what they want to be.

In that respect, any build that is played from a capable player will do well and serve its purpose, but when it comes to debuff and specially low cost as the original poster stated, there aren't many options one can pick.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

I'm not saying you have to build full dps. I'm just saying you can drop 15 (IMO useless) points in oppressor and put them nearly anywhere else and gain more damage.

You don't need extra debuffs from bitter cold as any group you'll be in will be at the debuff cap. You don't need the extra duration on CA because you can still get oppressive force off fast enough to keep 100% uptime. You don't need icy veins because all it gives you is control, which you will already be providing plenty of. Alternatively you don't need frigid winds because without icy veins you won't be able to reliably freeze things fast enough to benefit from it before the mobs die (and it doesn't work on bosses, which makes it super worthless)

Yes, that mentality comes from running with a good group. If you need to make changes to better accommodate the people you run with that's understandable, but it's not what I'm arguing.

oria1 · April 2017

Ok to end this because it keeps going for to long.

1st, one can argue that going for 15 thauma for 10% more or less dmg is equally useless. Malevolent doesn't do so well in fbi/msva either, (not many mobs), and 6000 more power and not recovery wont do much either when you get buffed by cleric/sw/paly power sharing.

trzebiat#2067 said:

Could you give me some tips about the rotation to use on soloing dailies/trash/bosses with adds/single target bosses? Especially the correct/best order to use powers to be the most effective. And that double Swath debuff.

So far I've been using Combustive Action + Swath (off-hand), Chilling Cloud (main-hand) + Scorching Burst, Oppressive Force (mainly) + Furious Immolation. Fanning the Flame (Mastery) to apply Smoulder or Conduit of Ice (Mastery) for single target bosses, Icy Terrain, Ray of Enfeeblement, Steal Time for trash or Chill Strike for single target bosses.

I would switch ray on tab on boss fights since its easy to keep smolder/rimfire by just doing OF or Scorching. For single target use Dot skills to give you higher chance to proc and stack darkfire. For trash use FtF on tab and also spam OF. As far as rest goes, you are doing fine my friend.

Again welcome to the dark side

Unknown · April 2017

This content has been removed.

aaramis75 · April 2017

OP: you're in a similar position to what I found myself in recently. Some nice bondings, a trans weapon enchant, and some basic gear and other stuff, but lacking in companions, mounts, etc.

Here's how I went about it:
- for mounts, the Arkaian Courser is cheap and an easy way to obtain Protector's Camaraderie if you need it. If you're going to be popping out a lot of dailies, Sabino Destrier is a cheap way to get Shepherd's Devotion, which is great for the buff/debuff role. I also try to pick up Gladiator's on every character I have, simply because I hate moving slowly - not sure what the cheapest option here is these days.
- for companions, I picked up an Energon and a Lillend for super cheap. The Energon was a cheap way to get a bit more hp, and I was toying around with using it for near perma-dailies, but have since shelved it in favour of Lillend allowing for extra healing (and equipping it was easier - 3 x ring slots). The Sellsword / archons / etc. are great and all, but get pricey, especially if you have to level them up yourself (250k for blue status; +500k for purple). Also, if you don't have spare Loyal Avenger gear floating around, you either have to be picky on your companion slots, or farm the living bejeezus out of the new skirmish (IG) and/or pray to the RNG gods. I went with the picky route, but your mileage may vary.
- for artifacts, the Lantern is your cheapest dps option probably. Nothing really compares to Wheel, but they're generally pricey, so your call here really. Valindra's set is always half-decent, so you might want that artifact, or whichever set artifact you go with. The CW class sigil is one of the best of those too, so that's worth slotting. The 4th is up to you and is a bit of a filler-inner IMO.
- depending on your HP, it might be worth looking into the Psion's Shroud. Lifesilk Spinneret is another popular one; and if you need the life steal, the Zulkir's Dreadnaught might work here too (if CW can use it). Most seem to go Psion's or Lifesilk though, if not using relic gear.
- for weapons, the Burning Set is probably your best bet to get those dailies firing non-stop, but in the meantime you can also chip away at either your relic, or the M11 Fey weapons. Both are great.

Anyways, just my 2cp.

voidgift · April 2017

Been running with Spell Twisting for years now. I officially hate it for the reasons Oria1 mentioned up there.

trzebiat · May 2017

It has been a while, so here's a little update. Thanks to all here for great tips, especially @oria1

Few more days and I'm done with boons for Sharandar and IWD so all that's left is last boon (x3) in SKT, two in UD and Maze Engine. I went initially for Spell Twisting but later changed and put 15 points into Oppressor for more debuffs, so now I'm stacking Recovery and Power. So far I really love this class and this type of play style. Running FBI with GF, OP, DC and HDPS (or Tank, DC and two DPS) is just amazing.
I finally unlocked mSVA recently and run it for the first time yesterday and had the smoothest runs I've ever seen while running on OP. I've seen too many 4k+ groups running mSVA with 3 DCs and wasting scrolls right and left, while we went there with far from BiS people and been doing 7 min runs with GF, OP and just 1 DC and no other heal.
I was planning to use Dancing Shield at first, but ended with Sellsword to not double it with GF (also because of belt slot and I've got one Adorable Licks belt). But since I've got 5 legendary rings yesterday I switched to Con Artist and put on him 2x Krig and 1x Hellig (currently using 6 R8 Silvery for more Recovery), keeping 2x Dod on myself (instead of Rising Focus and Lifesteal I was using before). Thanks to that my crit chance went up to 40%. Keeping in mind Loadouts coming to PS4 in the future, that should help a bit with changing to more DPS oriented setup (I could always switch Krig with Dod rings and manage enchants in a different way). I've run with another MoF CW, Rene plus Spell Twisting, more DPS than B/D oriented who was doing some serious damage in FBI, using Swath and Chilling Presence, running Orcus set etc. I'm using Lifesilk armor and Relic Assault feet. I'm not really sure what to use for head and arms at this point (currently using Visage head and Drowcraft arms), I've got multiple copies of Relic gear from FBI but I don't want to waste time and AD for Lanolin to restore. With double refinement coming soon I'll most likely try to level up multiple artifacts to have two sets depending if I need more crit for DPS or recovery for B/D with Loadouts, so I'm planning to get mythic Wheel of Elements (for DPS) and Heart of Black Dragon (for uncapped debuff since with high recovery I shouldn't need DC Sigil anymore), maybe DC Sigil too, and level up other for stats - Shard of Valindra, Thayan Book, Kessell Sphere, Black Ice Beholder, CW Sigil.

It was meant to be low cost character, but I started to like it so much I'm spending much more time on CW than on my OP, and investing much more on it.

mebengalsfan · June 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:
It has been a while, so here's a little update. Thanks to all here for great tips, especially @oria1

Few more days and I'm done with boons for Sharandar and IWD so all that's left is last boon (x3) in SKT, two in UD and Maze Engine. I went initially for Spell Twisting but later changed and put 15 points into Oppressor for more debuffs, so now I'm stacking Recovery and Power. So far I really love this class and this type of play style. Running FBI with GF, OP, DC and HDPS (or Tank, DC and two DPS) is just amazing.
I finally unlocked mSVA recently and run it for the first time yesterday and had the smoothest runs I've ever seen while running on OP. I've seen too many 4k+ groups running mSVA with 3 DCs and wasting scrolls right and left, while we went there with far from BiS people and been doing 7 min runs with GF, OP and just 1 DC and no other heal.
I was planning to use Dancing Shield at first, but ended with Sellsword to not double it with GF (also because of belt slot and I've got one Adorable Licks belt). But since I've got 5 legendary rings yesterday I switched to Con Artist and put on him 2x Krig and 1x Hellig (currently using 6 R8 Silvery for more Recovery), keeping 2x Dod on myself (instead of Rising Focus and Lifesteal I was using before). Thanks to that my crit chance went up to 40%. Keeping in mind Loadouts coming to PS4 in the future, that should help a bit with changing to more DPS oriented setup (I could always switch Krig with Dod rings and manage enchants in a different way). I've run with another MoF CW, Rene plus Spell Twisting, more DPS than B/D oriented who was doing some serious damage in FBI, using Swath and Chilling Presence, running Orcus set etc. I'm using Lifesilk armor and Relic Assault feet. I'm not really sure what to use for head and arms at this point (currently using Visage head and Drowcraft arms), I've got multiple copies of Relic gear from FBI but I don't want to waste time and AD for Lanolin to restore. With double refinement coming soon I'll most likely try to level up multiple artifacts to have two sets depending if I need more crit for DPS or recovery for B/D with Loadouts, so I'm planning to get mythic Wheel of Elements (for DPS) and Heart of Black Dragon (for uncapped debuff since with high recovery I shouldn't need DC Sigil anymore), maybe DC Sigil too, and level up other for stats - Shard of Valindra, Thayan Book, Kessell Sphere, Black Ice Beholder, CW Sigil.

It was meant to be low cost character, but I started to like it so much I'm spending much more time on CW than on my OP, and investing much more on it.

That happened to me as well. The good news for me when I created my CW was that Glorious Resug. boxes just hit PS4 back in October and I was able to pick Fire, Air and Earth Archons all blue on the cheap compared to what they are priced now. All under 100K AD at Rare, lol. Good luck getting those archones today at that price.

I like CW a lot and I play my Renegade MoF build more as a DPS but have it setup feat wise using @orial build but with points into Chilling Presence for persona DPS as I finish up RD and plan to work on STK and SoMI as I am far behind as I play 3 character and only work on one boon area for each character at a time and only do 2 characters at a time, meaning one character is sitting idle ATM as my DC is starting STK/SoMI tomorrow as she finishes up RD on Monday.

If you want some nice boots with Recovery run Kessell to pick up the black ice tread, they have over 1.5K recovery. Add that to the Lifesilk Spinneret and you will have at minimum 3K recover just from two pieces of gear.

As for Artifacts, Symbol of Air is power and Recovery, great Atrifact for a DPS/Buffer CW. Another great one is Symbol of Fire and the Heart of the Blue Dragon are all good artifacts for Recovery. I highly recommend Sigil of Devoted for AP gain.

Silvery are also 1/2 the cost of other enchantments on PS4. I can pick up a Silvery Rank 9 for half the cost of an Azure. Getting Silvery on your companion way to increase your recovery since bonding provide up to 285% increase in the companion stats to your character.

As for companions, not sure if the Jagged Blade active can stacks with the Sell Sword / Rebel Merc / Con Artist, but if it can that is another 10% defense debuff you can add to your debuffs.

Not sure where you are with your character, but given your enchantments you moved over from your tank, you are probably a bit ahead of me.

One more thing, get Burning or Fey weapons for additional AP gain and Flail Snail is another good mount to get.

Looking at how @orial play is not how I envisioned my CW. To me a CW should be more about controlling and since that is not a thing in NW than I went more DPS oriented but have my character set ATM to do debuffing if it is needed, though most groups that run T2 or lower dungeons really don't need the debuffing/buffing and if a group sees you are a 3K+ CW, they expect you to do DPS.

Lately I have seen more MoF debuffers on PS4 as of late. Maybe that was you for all I know in my IG run the other day.

Low cost CW

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