Random Queue LFG Transparency

evilsquirrel03 · March 2017

With the advent of MSVA and FBI it is becoming less and less likely that people are willing to run content with groups that are randomly thrown together. While it may still be okay for the skirmishes of the past it is becoming much more of a requirement for group leaders to build their teams efficiently and functionally to achieve success. Would it be at all possible to implement a queue system that would allow players to see who is queued for content and then inspect, communicate and build teams accordingly? We're basically doing this already via the Zone and LFG chats, but I think that this would make things a little easier for people who don't mind the PUG mentality and it would also facilitate snagging another player of the desired type when another player leaves. There are disadvantages to giving the players more control over their group compositions, but most of those disadvantages are already currently inherent in the way that we do things now.

mordekai · March 2017

I think the biggest disadvantage would be that people who already get booted for not fulfilling an arbitrary qualification wall don't even get their foot in the door and the slightest chance to show their mettle.

I think people should work on their capacity to operate as a team, bring the weaker characters up and increase the pool of better players, rather than telling people that despite them qualifying for the game's criteria, if there is anyone with a higher IL than them queuing they won't get on.

Of course, this means that as soon as someone looks at the queue they will realise that if there are "better" people than them already on there, they stand little to no chance because the group leader can just keep disqualifying plebs till their ideal team turns up. Which means loads of lower IL players won't even queue in the first place. The odds of them eventually being leader in their own right is 20% and could take all day.

Of course for elitist snobs, that's ideal...

worriedmammal8 · March 2017

Oh god it'd bringing back memories when it first came to Xbox. The boot n loot was terribly abused and made the gap between lower geared players and those that obviously guaranteed drops over and over. It does kinda show that there really should be no trust put on players to do the fair thing cause they won't.

I'm not saying it could be as bad as back then but, that was ridiculous how bad people took advantage of the old system

randomdigits · March 2017

It appears to me that the dev team is making their reward/balance choices based on an arguable assumption that "socially active players are more beneficial for the game" (as perhaps these players would keep each other from stopping playing or maybe because their are so altruistic and think that "spirit of friendship and cooperation is so good for the humankind"). The truth is there are all kinds of players, introverts and extraverts, casual and hardcore. When you make team play a requirement for the new content you build a wall between solo players and that new content. When you make me run a guild or lead its daily activities you make me work for your company instead of playing and enjoying the game.

I always PUG in Neverwinter. I would rather have fun failing some dungeon 5 times in a row and have a chance to develop my patience and skills than go with a bunch of elitists who are watching your every step eager to kick you off. This means I have none of that SOMI gear, apart from the boots from HE, and honestly I don't care. I'll wait till the game takes another turn and make these new dungeons PUG-friendly.

psychowildhogs · March 2017

To keep this short and too the point they (ARC) should eliminate the 10 man private queue system until it can be reworked to provide better enjoyment for everyone. That would make you queue with everyone and if an elitist gets queued with a couple of lower levels then they either leave or help them get better.

As of right now people are looking for quick farm/melt groups which in the long run of things is only hurting the game because once the elitist get everything fairly quick they will move away from the game.

evilsquirrel03 · March 2017

worriedmammal8 said:
Oh god it'd bringing back memories when it first came to Xbox. The boot n loot was terribly abused and made the gap between lower geared players and those that obviously guaranteed drops over and over. It does kinda show that there really should be no trust put on players to do the fair thing cause they won't.

I'm not saying it could be as bad as back then but, that was ridiculous how bad people took advantage of the old system

I'm not trying to say that the ability to randomly queue for dungeons, skirmishes etc... should be removed from the game. I just think that it would make a lot more sense to be able to have more transparency on what the queue itself looks like for the following scenarios:

"Hey...I just queued for this dungeon that says I have an average wait time of 5 minutes and I appear to be the only person queue. Am I wasting my time sitting in an empty queue? Perhaps I should head over to the Protector's Enclave and spam up some interest for the content I want to run."

"I just queued for this dungeon again, but this is just a simple salvage run for me. I'm fairly certain that any random five classes can pull this out. Let me poll five other queued people and see if they're of like mind to get this show on the road."

"We've just wiped on this boss five times!! Something in our class composition isn't right. Let's check the queue and see if there's anyone who I might be able to ask for help."

"Looks like there are only Clerics queued for this content (yeah right), hmm I can snag one from here and build the rest of my team in chat"

"Hmm I want to run incredibly difficult content that I need specific stats and roles to fill, how about I review the pool of players who all want to run this content and build a group from those queued up."

Having a better idea of what the queue looks like will only give you the ability to make better informed running decisions. It isn't meant to make people with lower gear scores feel excluded or as a tool for use only by those who are running BiS builds who feel they can't be bothered to run with us "lesser players'. I just think that it would be nice to have some insight into who is available in the queue and who is looking to run what.

evilsquirrel03 · March 2017

psychowildhogs said:
To keep this short and too the point they (ARC) should eliminate the 10 man private queue system until it can be reworked to provide better enjoyment for everyone. That would make you queue with everyone and if an elitist gets queued with a couple of lower levels then they either leave or help them get better.

As of right now people are looking for quick farm/melt groups which in the long run of things is only hurting the game because once the elitist get everything fairly quick they will move away from the game.

Have you run MSVA / SVA? The whole point of this trial is to do as much damage as fast as humanly possible before your 20 minute timer runs down and you get booted (SVA) or have to continue to fight or fail (MSVA). The groups don't going in there for sightseeing because the developers fashioned this to say bring your "A" game or get out of our instance. People sneer at the elitism of the highly geared for their exclusionary practices, but in this instance EVERYONE must contribute in a significant way. It is very difficult to carry others through this content and if you aren't prepared (with mass life scrolls, sound tactics and the best gear in the game) the likelihood that you will fail that content rises sharply.

There's nothing wrong with this sort of scenario, it just means that you've got to put a bit more into your preparations before going in. As far as enjoyment goes, this is one heck of a wild ride while you're in there any by far one of the more enjoyable/stress inducing pieces of content in the game right now. Everyone has equal opportunity to enjoy this content, you just have to work for it.

thegravelnome · March 2017

A well stated point of view evilsquirrel03. And I do respect you for the polite way you stated your arguments. I do disagree with you though on most of it. Allow me to explain.

The massive problem Neverwinter is experiencing in the queue system right now is in my opinion the direct result of elitism. By people wishing to get through contient fast, demanding that the people who play with them have only the best gear, and removing anybody from the group who has anything less than the highest attainable gear scores, it severely and artificially limits the pool of available people who in an elitist eyes are allowed to play. Most people are nowhere near a 4k il, have all rank 12 slotted, or have all of their artifacts and Equipment up to Mythic.

Instead of demanding that everyone meet elitist level criteria so runs can be accomplished in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort, in my opinion more effort should be made to allow people without high-level equipment to play so that way they can better their skills and equipment. This in turn will have the snowball effect of allowing more people to reach the elite level and allow more people to be available for fast runs.

The basic point I'm trying to make is that everyone is entitled to be given the chance to run whatever content they believe they are capable of running. If they succeed wonderful! if they fail they learn from thair mistakes and grow. I would personally rather spend 5 hours attempting to accomplish something with guildmates that are not experienced and finally having that sweet victory where everyone screams in joy, then have the cheap satisfaction of a speed run that has no story behind it. The best part of any story is not the ending, it's the journey that you go through to get there.

evilsquirrel03 · March 2017

@thegravelnome#9466 just looking back through this thread there appears to be a common theme of disdain. I don't know if it's a direct result of the current queue system or if people just feel that they're being neglected and ignored for their lack of skill/gear. So that said, let's address elitism as it pertains to the queue system.

For the sake of argument I will consider very high item level to be 3500 and higher.

From my personal experience people with very high gear scores tend to belong to guilds/alliances that have other members with very high gear scores. They have also been playing the game for quite a while and typically have made friends that they tend to rely on to run content. In most cases people with these scores stick to guild and alliance chats or just run with their friends so you typically don't see them. When they do queue for random dungeons they tend not to care who's in the group, they just want to tackle it and snag their salvage quickly. People speed through the content of this game because they've done the same runs thousands of times before.

If the group fails to produce the speed for this content (not enough damage being output or the party wipes) someone with a high gear score may leave. I think that this is the point where people attribute their decision to leave to elitism. It's going to be rough, but let's look at the situation from the leaver's perspective. When you've been running the same content for years you get a feel for how long the content is going to take. You start to make expectations for how long a particular fight should take and what actions need to be taken to be successful in certain fights. When too many of these expectations get broken; the fight takes too long due to low dps, the tank fails to hold aggro causing the party to wipe etc. the party member will just leave. Sometimes they're rude about it, most times in my experience they aren't. They just leave. They do so because they know that they can just queue up and try again with hopefully faster/better results or they can go do something else. The reason for this is that the reward at the end of the dungeon is in no way shape or form worth them spending hours trudging through the same content when they can turn around and run it through again in fifteen minutes. The content is not dynamic enough and the rewards are just not compelling enough to remain in the dungeon. There is also no rationale to stick around for the team because they're all just random strangers.

Team members who were left in the dungeon seem to take the act of leaving personally. It angers them because they actually have to rely on the team for their success and a leaver provides a target for them to vent frustrations of the teams failure. They also realize that with the departure of a high team member's assistance, the chance of success plunges dramatically. Rather than shrugging it off and starting over, what I instead notice is that these team members tend to stick around growing more and more frustrated as they bash their heads into a wall.

The content of Neverwinter is a grind. From skirmishes, to dailies, to dungeons and trials; everything we do in this game contains some form of repetition. This repetition and grind leads players to seek efficiency for achievement and advancement. In this game (like many others) competence is measured in how quickly the content is successfully completed. I don't think that the current queue system is excluding anyone or failing the game in any way, I just think that being able to see who is in the queue would facilitate getting groups together faster.

armadeonx · March 2017

My pally is now almost 3.8k and I'm in Ruthless which is a GH20 guild.

I generally pug when running CN and I'm not bothered about the IL of the rest of the group, mostly because as the tank I am not reliant on them. During my last run the other day one of the DPS (3.2k SW) tried to kick a GWF who was in the mid 2k range even though we were going pretty quickly. The guy hadn't done anything wrong, it's just his DPS wasn't particularly high.

I voted no and he stayed in. We burned through Orcus with no problems. I ended up as 2nd on Paingiver but I was cool with that given the group composition.

I always work on the principle that if everyone is trying their best I have no issue, I'll only vote yes if someone is leeching or trolling. I actually quite enjoy running with newer players.

I know there are a number of players that take the opposite view (e.g. I really have no idea what the SWs problem was) but I would point out this is not a new thing. I was getting booted from groups in mod 4 for being low level and it has existed for as long as I've played this game.

thegravelnome · March 2017

armadeonx, evilsquirrel03, the nome tips his hat to you. Your post were insightful deep and thought-provoking. I cannot explain how grateful I am that we are able to have a proper conversation about this instead of another fight as I was fearing was coming.

The comment about the rewards not being compelling enough to stick with the team and fight through. I agree with that the rewards at best mediocre and disproportionate to the time it takes to run through the continent.

As for the ones who jump ship when the group going gets tough. I find it this is also correct. perhaps some sort of mechanism should be introduced to discourage this kind of behavior such as a cool-down preventing them from q ing again right away.

I applaud both of you for your statements of standing up for those who have done nothing wrong. The more of this that can happen the harder it will be for people to be punished for no reason.

I find that we are now of like mind in this situation so the question remains what to do about it. I believe that installing a more transparent cue system will broaden the potential for abuse as opposed to be able to aid people. I am not saying that everyone will do this, but as we all know it only takes one in a hundred to make everyone miserable.

The comments about people refusing to Q and running with gildes are also accurate. I know I have also shifted away from the cue system due to the Antics going on within it.

At the moment my proposal to fix the problem would be A. Better rewards for the dungeon to encourage more people to complete the Run. And B. Some kind of cool down mechanism to prevent people from Q hopping from group to group to group.

I anxiously await your thoughts on these suggestions.

armadeonx · March 2017

Well pvp has a 30 minute leaver penalty, it's certainly something worth discussing the pros & cons.

There's also been suggestions of a 'vote to quit' system. I can't remember the exact discussion as it was a while back but the idea is that if players feel something isn't going well they have the option to vote to end the run so everyone can leave but nobody gets a penalty. It would certainly get around one of the problems with a leaver penalty. It may have been about edemo?

One potential problem would be that whilst it would be unfair to apply the penalty on people who are votekicked, those wishing to leave could simply stand still until they are kicked, thus holding up a run by refusing to participate but avoiding a penalty for getting what they wanted - to leave the dungeon.

One possible method which I haven't ever seen suggested is that of player or even guild reputation scores. It would be interesting to see something where the game adds up the number of times a player quits, initiates a votekick or is on the receiving end of a vote and gives the player a score.

That score could potentially be used to make those with a negative/bad score wait longer in pug queues etc. player scores could also add up for guild members and give their guild a 'reputation' which could potentially impact all sorts of things.

This would put guilds in the position of enforcing some kind of behaviour expectation or kick people with bad scores.

Food for thought.

thegravelnome · March 2017

Oooooo oooooo! I LOVE the idea of a player score! It could have the potential for abuse like many other well ment ideas but I whould be willing to try. Possibly put in rules like if you are negative you have to Q with other negative people. Or if you have a low score you can't use vip. High scores get free zen or add. Something like that

randomdigits · March 2017

The idea of Karma is a fun yet scary one to entertain, both in game and in a real life.
"How many active players consider this person good/bad." kind of score. E.g. affecting your luck with loot drops

Not sure what would cons and pros. It would of course see all kinds of exploits. Maybe each player should be limited in number of scores one could assign and the scores should eventually expire. I can think of guild/alliance leads using their position to get higher scores, also botters and griefers would abuse it.

Ultimately it's about giving players means to:
1) convince other players to behave well
2) isolate their gameplay from players who cannot be convinced to behave well

armadeonx · March 2017

A system where players can mark another up or down would be ripe for abuse but one based on actual behaviour would be harder to fiddle.

An example would be from the discussion above, someone quits a high percentage of pug teams or initiates a high number of votekicks could see them with a bad rep, whereas sticking with teams could see their score going up. It would also be possible to award/deduct more points if the people from their team are of a lower IL so higher players get an extra 'reward' for helping lower level players rather than just quitting as they often do now.

In Baldur's Gate/ToSC players had a reputation score which could impact all sorts of things including who would speak to you or prices charged by merchants.

mordekai · March 2017

armadeonx said:
A system where players can mark another up or down would be ripe for abuse but one based on actual behaviour would be harder to fiddle.

An example would be from the discussion above, someone quits a high percentage of pug teams or initiates a high number of votekicks could see them with a bad rep, whereas sticking with teams could see their score going up. It would also be possible to award/deduct more points if the people from their team are of a lower IL so higher players get an extra 'reward' for helping lower level players rather than just quitting as they often do now.

In Baldur's Gate/ToSC players had a reputation score which could impact all sorts of things including who would speak to you or prices charged by merchants.

Agreed. How long before it becomes a regular requirement in Guilds to "Up Vote" Guild Leaders.

I had an idea for PvP a while back for having tiers. You have a 0-5 score, and every time you won a match, you get +1, and when you lose you get -1 (to min of zero) and when you hit 5 you move up a tier and reset to zero.
You can queue for your current tier or 1 below, but get minimal rewards if you go low.
It would potentially thin the numbers of available PvP, but the system would allow part timers to PvP more so the numbers would in all likelihood go up as the chance of getting gang-stomped by pros would be a lot less.

I'm sure a similar system could be applied to PvE dungeons, but rather than moving through tiers the +1 is based on group success, and everyone either gets it, or doesn't.
The individual's total score could act as a reward bonus. The score would ONLY apply to PUG play, to stop elite teams racking up high scores, and there would be a facility where if you join a queue within 20 minutes (or whatever) of quitting a dungeon you would get a standard reward with no +1 if you succeed.That would be to stop elite groups PUG jumping to get in the same group.

Someone smarter than me would need to establish the success criteria, but I reckon a system that encourages AND rewards high IL/ experienced players to actually HELP lower characters might see at least a slight change in attitude.

(I'm not dumb enough to think there won't still be arseholes berating low IL PUGs for losing them a point for being not as super mega as them... but frankly I'll start giving a HAMSTER about THEM when they start giving a HAMSTER about anyone but themselves)

mordekai · March 2017

Oops, tried to edit, hit quote, edited quote and it all got messy...

evilsquirrel03 · March 2017

I really like the idea of having reputation in the game. Heck throw in a vendor that gives special fashion/transmutes or refinement or something and you've got a reason for people to really want to contribute to making a run successful. It would be something unrelated to content and yet something that the other players can look at and go "Wow! This person is a real hero of Neverwinter". It wouldn't be because their item level is in the stratosphere, but instead because they're just an amicable player that is fun to have in a group.

sundance777 · March 2017

armadeonx said:
My pally is now almost 3.8k and I'm in Ruthless which is a GH20 guild.

I generally pug when running CN and I'm not bothered about the IL of the rest of the group, mostly because as the tank I am not reliant on them. During my last run the other day one of the DPS (3.2k SW) tried to kick a GWF who was in the mid 2k range even though we were going pretty quickly. The guy hadn't done anything wrong, it's just his DPS wasn't particularly high.

I voted no and he stayed in. We burned through Orcus with no problems. I ended up as 2nd on Paingiver but I was cool with that given the group composition.

I always work on the principle that if everyone is trying their best I have no issue, I'll only vote yes if someone is leeching or trolling. I actually quite enjoy running with newer players.

I know there are a number of players that take the opposite view (e.g. I really have no idea what the SWs problem was) but I would point out this is not a new thing. I was getting booted from groups in mod 4 for being low level and it has existed for as long as I've played this game.

I too have the same feeling about PUG runs, I will PUG occasionally as it is sometimes easier than getting 4 guildies to go in the same direction at the same time lol...and it adds some variety to the run as you don't know what the randoms will do compared to the ones you play with all the time.

I was recently in shores on my GWF and we were having a little trouble with the boss and one player starting voting to kick others that were not doing as much damage as himself, who honestly wasn't doing much damage either. After a few rounds of No votes from me, I ended up just leaving the run myself even tho I was the dps for this group.

I think the main issue with the Q system is around the newest and hardest content, FBI/SVA/MSVA. The IL requirements listed to Q are much lower than the IL requirement to be successful and the reality is you are not going to be successful if the entire group is at or near the minimum. My first thought was hey, let's raise the IL requirements, but that is not the right answer either.

I think one thing that could work is to tier the IL requirements so that there is either a group average calculation or maybe a mechanism to allow 1 of lower item lever for every X of a higher item level, something that varies the group composition similar to the class composition requirements. For that matter, the Q could also require 4 DPS at 3.x and 2 DPS at 3.y and 1 DC at 3.x and 1 DC at 3.y or similar....

I like the ability to private Q and ignore some of the requirements of the public Q so I would not want to see that feature removed but at the same time, if everyone was using the public Q we might have the chance to get into a run of SVA/MSVA without building the group first. It would be nice if the public Q also had some mechanism to increase the chance of success in the run as well and not just slap together the specific classes that meet the minimum IL, that just wont work with the end game stuff right now.

mordekai · March 2017

I've just come off a PUG in EToS, where four of us were roughly 2.3-2.6k and there was a 3.5 TR.
This guy was fast... I mean FAST. I reckon in addition to the normal utility slots, he had ear rings, bracelets and probably a belly button ring all stacked with R12 Darks...
EVERY bloody encounter this guy went charging in, hit his AoE... and turned into a green smudge on the floor as fifteen spiders chowed down on his bloody corpse.
When he'd reset and caught up with the rest of us I could AA him along with everyone else, spam healing and he'd survive... only to do exactly the same again.
He complained that it was my job as DC to pop AA before he got hit...
I took a deep breath, considered giving him an earful, but relaxed and tried to explain that AA has a casting time and that I have to stand still to do it so please wait for me to AP up, and....
...he was off again.

I might change my opinion on queue visibility if it allowed to say, "Oh God.... not if its THAT guy..." and wait for the next bus to the Underdark.

Random Queue LFG Transparency

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