How to tank?

karakla1 · November 2016

I have currently troubles to tank properly.
Before the patch i could partially tank Orcus if i did my rotation right. But after the patch, without the damage immunity from Binding Oath i die within two hits.
I have in Party about 62% Damage reduction 160K HP and no clue how to rotate my skills to counter such big hits. I tried to use Binding Oath for the blue shielding HP, then going Templers Wrath for temporary hitpoints and put my shield up because of the additional 80% damage reduction but the cast times are so high that i get hit two times before the shield is up.

Can someone help me please?

jaegernl · November 2016

The first time after they changed Binding Oath and I was going to tank Orcus, I got my HAMSTER handed to me because I was so used to the immunity that Binding Oath provided. Glad to see people turn to the forum for a bit of assistance, instead of following the general hype of 'Tank OP is dead'. Luckily, that narrative has died down, considering I see quite a few SVA groups ask for a Paladin specificly.

The first few hits before your defenses are up are indeed the fiercest. Firstly, going to adress a misconception you might have on Sanctuary. Sanctuary does provide 80% DR, but it takes into account your native DR, which caps at 80%. It's not a seperate layer as the Guardian Fighters' Shield is. Basicly, if you're already at 80% DR, and the monster has no Armor Penetration, Sanctuary does nothing for you, besides the small heal and the CC Immunity.

My rotation when tanking Orcus hasn't changed considerably as to when Binding Oath still provided immunity. After zoning in I apply three stacks of Bane - and I keep applying them as the fight goes on - to reduce his damage output and increase his incoming damage. Next, I hit Binding Oath and generally hit Divine Protector too, as that does provide a seperate layer of defense, which will help me get me going. I hit Divine Call, to trigger Judge, and Radiant Strike to close the gap. I immediatly hit Templar's Wrath, which, because of the debuffs on the target and the damage buff on myself, provides a little more Temp. HP.
After that, the group generally moves in and starts applying more debuffs to the target and buffs on myself, which lower Orcus' damage output and increase mine, giving me more Temp. HP with each use of Templar's Wrath. If I feel I'm going to get into trouble, because my cooldowns haven't reset yet - I tend to save Divine Call for emergencies - I use Divine Protector again to give me more protection. Another option would be Shield of Faith, which has a longer uptime.

As for at-wills and class features, I use Shielding Strike and Radiant Strike, as I've found the taunt of Binding Oath to be enough to hold agro, and Shielding helps a tiny bit. I use Aura of Courage and Aura of Wisdom, but you could substitute those for, say, Aura of Truth and Aura of Protection to increase your survivability and lower Orcus' output.

I've found cooldown management is a bit more important now. You can't just hit everything as it comes off cooldown - exception being Bane - and expect to get through just fine. If you still have a ton of Temp. HP, there's no reason to use Binding Oath again. As you see your Temp. HP diminish, use Binding Oath to cover your behind while you wait a few more seconds while Templar's Wrath is coming off cooldown.

There's times I too get into trouble, though. Especially when the teammates fail to dodge - or can't see yet - the balls of death he summons. If Divine Protector is up and you're still within range of Orcus, your Temp. HP and Shield HP will drop quickly. Add to that the surprise self-nuke of Binding Oath, and you can easily catch yourself doing 400k+ damage to yourself with too few Temp. HP to cover that damage.

Lastly, there's no shame in asking your teammates for some assistance here. It's a team game. A lot of classes have skills that will either increase your survivability or lower the damage output of Orcus. If your party has, say, an Oath of Devotion Paladin with them, ask them to cover Bane so you can use Absolution instead. It'll cap out your DR and provide you with another 50% of your max HP as Shield HP. It could be the amount that saves your HAMSTER. Clerics have a ton of skills that can aid you. Wizards will generally use Ray of Enfeeblement. A Trickster Rogue, if you expect to see yourself getting into trouble, can use Courage Breaker.

Like I said earlier, the first few hits are the fiercest. Once you survive those, and the teammates have jumped in with their own skills, the fight is generally a lot easier. Orcus won't chew through your Shield HP and part of your Temp. HP with just one hit. It'll take a few more.

emilemo · November 2016

The protop is a trash tank now and thats that. Great vs hordes of anything thats not Orcus. Check some youtube videos, you'll see the successful Orcus tanking is done by paladins with either one of or all of these:
1) AC DC on team spamming AA
2) Yeti tank who actually does the real tanking
3) 3 rank12 Bondings on the Yeti allowing the Paladin to reach insane amounts of Power/Crit/ArmPen resulting in mega amounts of Temp HP from TW

There you have the recipe for Orcus, FBI and above. ITs not rotation, its not even your build and the gear you wear - the actual power is coming from external sources like party and pets. You see without rank12 Bondings and without a good AC/DC my Paladin of 3.8 IL can die quite easily to Orcus. Bottom line is our abilities and out build alone are not enough. We need massive team support AND high rank bonding runestones to be successful in our designated role. The paladin is in need of urgent evaluation and balancing because he is way, way to gear dependent while his core ability is lacking.

akira · November 2016

emilemo said:
The protop is a trash tank now and thats that. Great vs hordes of anything thats not Orcus. Check some youtube videos, you'll see the successful Orcus tanking is done by paladins with either one of or all of these:
1) AC DC on team spamming AA
2) Yeti tank who actually does the real tanking
3) 3 rank12 Bondings on the Yeti allowing the Paladin to reach insane amounts of Power/Crit/ArmPen resulting in mega amounts of Temp HP from TW

There you have the recipe for Orcus, FBI and above. ITs not rotation, its not even your build and the gear you wear - the actual power is coming from external sources like party and pets. You see without rank12 Bondings and without a good AC/DC my Paladin of 3.8 IL can die quite easily to Orcus. Bottom line is our abilities and out build alone are not enough. We need massive team support AND high rank bonding runestones to be successful in our designated role. The paladin is in need of urgent evaluation and balancing because he is way, way to gear dependent while his core ability is lacking.

I'm going to have to kind of both agree and disagree with you here.
A large part of the recent changes to the Paladin "core" skills was because a competent (see: not necessarily 3k+ IL) could just take 4 other players, regardless of class, gear, or experience and clear any content in the game at the time (back when Divine Protector lasted 20 seconds, overlapping Binding Oath made you Damage immune, and with enough Recovery/AP Gain, an OP could maintain DP/Heroism together almost indefinitely.)

emilemo said:
1) AC DC on team spamming AA

For one, party composition should always be taken into consideration (with regards to AA DC, great to have, I wouldn't say necessary unless you're running eSVA, but as time moves on, we'll see how this develops.)

emilemo said:
2) Yeti tank who actually does the real tanking

If that's how they want to do it, then that's fine. I use a Zhentarim Warlock, who does zero tanking for me, but that's how I want to do it.

emilemo said:
3) 3 rank12 Bondings on the Yeti allowing the Paladin to reach insane amounts of Power/Crit/ArmPen resulting in mega amounts of Temp HP from TW

Can't remember the exact math here, but I'm pretty sure starting at Rank 10, Bondings begin to out perform Augments. I spent quite a long time with an Ioun Stone to shore up my stats before I collected enough refinement points/AD to get my Bondings up.
In the meantime, consider that if you want to be able to run end-game content, you're going to need endgame gear. I do what I can to avoid the whole "epeen, must have 4k+ to join, etc.," mentality, but if the Minimum Gear Score is where you are at for content you want to run, it's going to be hard. But that's how games are made, you can't expect to go from 1.8k to 3k overnight, and if you're looking at content that your gear barely qualifies for, the only way to shore this up is to be selective with what roles you take for your team. MoF CW's, AA DC's, Hell SW's, particularly shine here. Buffs/Debuffs can take what was a stressful (impossible) scenario, and turn it into a cakewalk. I personally have experienced this countless times grinding out dungeons at various points.

What I'm getting at, is that you don't need a high gear-score to be effective, but you do need:
1) A solid grasp of the encounters you face,
2) A sound understanding of how your class operates, its limits and capabilities,
3) At least a basic familiarity with other classes, and how they interact with yours.

BO>TW>Smite/Bane > SoF is a great rotation, and a lot can be alleviated in the Orcus fight, just by popping BO and TW before the fight starts. The prior observations are accurate, once the fight picks up, it gets easier. If you are not at 80% DR, blocking those Wand Smashes are pretty key. I've even messed around swapping out DC Sigil for OP Sigil and even GF Sigil in active slots, all were successful and it comes down to timing. And remembering that we (OP Tanks) can't stand in the fire like we used to.

If you have those three things, you can find that with some patience, there is a lot of enjoyment to be had in playing as a Prot OP. Anyhow that's my mileage, hope it helps!

~Lightbringer

emilemo · November 2016

With a strong party (both dps and healing) my Pally breezes thru CN. Even the Orcus fight goes smooth when everyone knows where to stand and what to do.
But I dont like the idea of a Paladin tank who falls to a few consecutive hits from a boss like Orcus unless a buff DC is protecting him. The other tank (meaning GF of course) can take more than a few hits on his own while protecting the party. With the Pally is more the other way around, the party protects the Pally. Why are we protection Paladins? In order to protect or to be protected? If you stand up to Orcus with "BO>TW>Smite/Bane > SoF" but without good team support you will die. I dont want the return of complete immunity, all I want is to be able to survive at least as good as a GF. Considering we fall behind him on buffing too we should be on par with tanking at least.

armadeonx · November 2016

I just wish they'd fix the bloody shield. The other day I did a couple of SH dragons on my OP for the first time in a long while. I died 3 times, the funny point being that these were the only times that I saw a 'red' hit coming and put up my shield. The other times I just kept swinging through the red hit and was fine.

Something is seriously wrong when you take MORE damage by using your shield - lol

emilemo · November 2016

armadeonx said:
I just wish they'd fix the bloody shield. The other day I did a couple of SH dragons on my OP for the first time in a long while. I died 3 times, the funny point being that these were the only times that I saw a 'red' hit coming and put up my shield. The other times I just kept swinging through the red hit and was fine.

Something is seriously wrong when you take MORE damage by using your shield - lol

I guess thats what we get when they copy a bunch of different class skills onto a Guardian Fighter template and call it a Paladin. Buggy and glitchy excuse of a class. Shame really considering the Paladin is a staple in D&D.

ltgamesttv · December 2016

Personally I don't think you should take 50% of the damage at the end of binding oath. The amount of damage you take should have an upper limit of say 50% of your HP.

armadeonx · December 2016

Well that is its new cap, the shield is worth 100% of your normal HP and you take half of that in damage so 50% of your normal HP.

The problem with it is Orcus hits you for 70k damage through 75% DR so that's about 50% of the typical base HP - in other words, 2 hits and the shield is gone and you take half so you take 1 full hit out of every 2.

ltgamesttv · December 2016

Yes, allow me to clarify, it wasn't very plain. You would take a max of 50% of your HP from temp HP only. You would only receive damage if you lost 100% of temp HP. Does that make better sense?

So that, in your example, you could take 2 hits of 70k and still have 140k real HP left.

emilemo · December 2016

The real BO problem is that the damage it deals to Paladins is not mitigated by DR. My pally would get hit for 85 000 from a fully depleted BO while it would be hit for 17000 if my DR was to come into play. Think about it, when you take damage normally it gets mitigated by DR. However when incoming damage is applied to the blue BO shield its not mitigated by DR. Why? Where is the logic in that? Our flat DR % needs to be applied to all hits which BO absorbs either before they are applied to the blue bar or after the blue bar expires and the damage goes to our HP/Temp HP.

They broke BO plain and simple, the only real survival encounter is TW but you need good party buffs and rank12 bonds on pet to build up the needed temp HP for the likes of Orcus.

balufunke · December 2016

After deafeating Orcus some players used to say "nice tanking" or "nice healing". Nowadays they say "nice pet" sounds always like an insult to me.

x30floki · December 2016

I am playing on Xbox, so I dont know Mod 10.5 and cant say anything about the BO Change, but...
Since I heard about the 10.5 change on PC, I try playing without BO. And well.... tanking Orcus isnt that hard as many people say. Since 2 days my OP is 3,3k IL, at about 40% DR and 160K HP. I usually run with the Lion as pet (1. helps tanking, 2. giving me more aggro, 3. giving the Group a lil buff).
The usual dungeon run is done by 3 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank. So usually u fight Orcus WITH the support of a dc or healadin. Both really help - so why care about running without any support for u? Every DC helps, either with heals or with AA or just with debuffing orcus and buffing u (more buff means more damage means more Temp HP). A healadin can heal u up instantly to max hp when orcus hits u hard.
If I run without a 2nd supporter (I just did today, nice run with GWF, CW, SW and HR), I keep my Lion with me all the time. Without any healing support, orcus can be really tricky, as my own heals arent really great. So, if I notice I have problems, I switch my Lion for my angel.
I usually just need bane and TW, not really sure with Encounter to use with them. SoF as daily is an Option, but I keep my AP saved for DP, so I can help out my team when orcus does one of his Special attacks (usually the green bubbles). I dont think it's that hard without BO, when u know what to do.
Today I was tanking orcus with even using my shield just once.

So, I dont really get the Problem with the changes in 10.5. I think I might work with Absolution, as it gets stronger with 10.5, right?

emilemo · December 2016

^ Tanking Orcus with 160k HP and 40% DR sounds like a different Orcus to me

The one I know tends to kill me at 170K HP and ~80% DR if a DC isnt using AA.

jase2cool · December 2016

I'm 160k HP and 80% DR i could tank Orcus without healer, Its subjective to rotation and play style.
Also bonding has nothing to do with it ( DR is maxed with/without bonding, my bonding mainly more recovery ) therefore i would reckon with a healer as long as Orcus cant oneshot that OP the healer should be able to keep OP alive as long he knows what he is doing.

Same goes for GF they will need a healer to tank Orcus.

x30floki · December 2016

Well, TempHP of 200k and more and my healing angel helps.

armadeonx · December 2016

x30floki said:

If I run without a 2nd supporter (I just did today, nice run with GWF, CW, SW and HR), I keep my Lion with me all the time. Without any healing support, orcus can be really tricky, as my own heals arent really great. So, if I notice I have problems, I switch my Lion for my angel.

That's the reason for the two previous comments about having to rely on your companion for tanking instead of your own abilities. YOU are supposed to be the tank.

emilemo · December 2016

jase2cool said:
I'm 160k HP and 80% DR i could tank Orcus without healer, Its subjective to rotation and play style.
Also bonding has nothing to do with it ( DR is maxed with/without bonding, my bonding mainly more recovery ) therefore i would reckon with a healer as long as Orcus cant oneshot that OP the healer should be able to keep OP alive as long he knows what he is doing.

Same goes for GF they will need a healer to tank Orcus.

3x rank12 bondings on pet grant my paladin around 500 000 temp hp from 1 TW while I'm running solo. If I hit TW with party buffs on top of my bondings the temp hp goes thru the roof. Thats why bondings have everything to do with it.

Also Id love to see your math here cause a single orcus melee hit with your DR is 160 000. Considering you dont have high enough offensive stats since you are recovery based you cant have much temp hp and without a healer to buff you with AA you are a daily (DP, SoF) spammer at best. So which is it? Because Orcus should kill you in a few consecutive hits.

sundance777 · December 2016

I was starting to dig into the class forum to see if anyone has a bulwark OP going with any luck, and found this thread. I too am xbox and current rely on BO to tank Orcus right now so this is an interesting discussion.

I am under the impression that the large sweeping swing from Orcus is an 800K+ hit, I see that in the logs when it kills pets and assume that is how you are arriving at the 160K number. I am really still unsure why he needs to hit that hard every few seconds ....I guess it is intended to force a proper party and weed out the lower IL toons... but whatever.

Right now, I actually find the rotation on the pally easier than on my tank for this fight, its something with the timing of the rotation for me I think.

I read somewhere else some were having some luck with absolution, is anyone here having luck with Absolution instead of Binding Oath or in addition to?

jobsalotofwork · December 2016

I'm not using binding oath on Orcus. It's more of a DPS encounter now IMO. Bane, TW, and CoP seem to work well. TW temp HP provide your defense, and the other two help lower his damage, and provide you more HP when you use TW.

Blocking appropriately makes a difference too. In guild I've heard orcus has 40-45 resistance ignored. So even at 80-95 defense the extra 80 will mitigate his RI. This is very noticeable if you don't have all your defenses up - negation, CoP etc. The extra 25 from CoP will help if you're not blocking too.

Then add SoF or DP. The big issue is that first hit. You can cast TW when you enter the area to give you a buffer while you're setting up.

sundance777 · December 2016

emilemo said:

3x rank12 bondings on pet grant my paladin around 500 000 temp hp from 1 TW while I'm running solo. If I hit TW with party buffs on top of my bondings the temp hp goes thru the roof. Thats why bondings have everything to do with it.

Can you say more about this, how are the rank 12's helping with temp HP? Is it something to do with the amount of damage you do? I thought the temp HP was maxed out at the top of your normal HP bar, meaning temp HP up to 100% of your own HP.

jobsalotofwork · December 2016

Temp HP can be more then your HP.

armadeonx · December 2016

Correct, temp health has no upper limit. The 3 rank 12's boost your damage output through increased power which means more temp HP.

obsidiancran3 · December 2016

Orcus; Bane, BO, Templar's, Protection, Wisdom, Shielding, Heroism and DP.

Basically BO, and Bane as you go in, Heroism just out of his reach, then Templar's once beside him. If necessary use Sanctuary while BO is coming off cooldown. DP is for when he does his big attacks to give everyone else some breathing room.

At 3.5k I don't need AA, just some heals and debuffs/buffs to get him dead faster. If you are having trouble with agro, swap Bane for RA.

jase2cool · December 2016

emilemo said:

jase2cool said:
I'm 160k HP and 80% DR i could tank Orcus without healer, Its subjective to rotation and play style.
Also bonding has nothing to do with it ( DR is maxed with/without bonding, my bonding mainly more recovery ) therefore i would reckon with a healer as long as Orcus cant oneshot that OP the healer should be able to keep OP alive as long he knows what he is doing.

Same goes for GF they will need a healer to tank Orcus.
3x rank12 bondings on pet grant my paladin around 500 000 temp hp from 1 TW while I'm running solo. If I hit TW with party buffs on top of my bondings the temp hp goes thru the roof. Thats why bondings have everything to do with it.

Also Id love to see your math here cause a single orcus melee hit with your DR is 160 000. Considering you dont have high enough offensive stats since you are recovery based you cant have much temp hp and without a healer to buff you with AA you are a daily (DP, SoF) spammer at best. So which is it? Because Orcus should kill you in a few consecutive hits.

You did not explore out of the box,

You are too indulged in your own delusion,
Same routine during OP golden age, we OP no longer lives in that era, wake up we no longer Mr. 007.

If same trick don't work try new things don't blame the game before you tried everything.
perhaps exploring new things such as Absolution,cleansing touch or Circle of Power will have solution to the problem.

Ok back to the topic...
1st of all as i said... my companion gives mainly recovery and no its not a tanking companion

I don't even uses Templar Wrath my temporary HP comes from Cleansing Touch as long as Orcus can't kill me in one swoop i will heal myself and carry on. (simple math Orcus does damage to me... I heal that much, if one heal cant use Divine call cast another)

don't be naive, OP nerfed daily wont helps much no matter how hard you spam them.

I will show you again the video i previously made
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AuO6w-_Zbbem0UtKGglLIMRIW-Bu

The video clearly shows there are no healer/buffer and no tanking companion.

If i were able to do totally without DC,
i'm sure anyone with a decent DC in party will make it even with decent gear score.
Just be getting the rotation and condition right, OP are totally functional as a Tank.

Tank in any game will need support from a healer its always been that way, (even in starcraft bunker need scv to repair)
build an OP with that in mind find that healer and you be fine. (oh my healer is myself and yes we OP can do that which GF can't)

Having 3xR12 Bonding helps but its not a must i seen many OP/GF made it through without them.

Just like Bond having cool gadgets helps, without them could be difficult but still able complete mission with good strategy/help from others.

Hope this post clear things up and thanks for reading.

emilemo · December 2016

sundance777 said:

emilemo said:

3x rank12 bondings on pet grant my paladin around 500 000 temp hp from 1 TW while I'm running solo. If I hit TW with party buffs on top of my bondings the temp hp goes thru the roof. Thats why bondings have everything to do with it.
Can you say more about this, how are the rank 12's helping with temp HP? Is it something to do with the amount of damage you do? I thought the temp HP was maxed out at the top of your normal HP bar, meaning temp HP up to 100% of your own HP.

Its the additional Power/Crit/Arm pen that help me deal more damage and that in turn leads to more temp HP from Templar's. TW temp HP is not tied to your base health. The new BO is a blue HP shield equal to your base HP.

How to tank?

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