Binding Oath changes on PREVIEW - this will be about PVP/PVE

emilemo · October 2016

So for those who dont visit preview be it on forums or ingame here's the short version. Devs want to change Binding Oath so it doesnt block Irresistible damage anymore. Basically everfrost will damage you through BO and I guess piercing damage from rogues and hunters will also damage you through BO. How do I, as a Pally main player, feel about it?

1) in PVE I call it a bs change that makes no sense unless BO somehow makes FBI trivial. If thats the case then sure ok, do it. But how about instead of messing with our powers fix our bugs first? Are you devs aware that one Mr Orcus can kill OPs through BO sometimes?

2)in PVP the change is pure rubbish. As it stands only 2 classes have access to irresistible damage and only 1 class can become immune to it (for 8 seconds). The DC also gets a mention here because empowered AS does seem to mitigate even piercing dmg. Anyway, this is about Paladins and since Im making this thread I'll speak from my pov. My OP does PVP in full prestige gear. Even with 10k Arm Pen, 18k Power and 10k Crit I can pretty much only kill undergeared players or players who somebody else already depleted of health - Why? - Because our encounters are weak thats why! My one trump card in PVP is being the super hard to kill guy who goes from node to node and counters 1hit-kill rogues or high IL rangers who can end most player characters in mere seconds. If BO starts letting the piercing damage through my Pally wont even be a good punching bag anymore. Whats the deal here devs cause it sure looks like you're telling us Paladins cant kill and cant stay alive? What are we supposed to do? Use the brand new 80% from bugged Sanctuary to survive? You guys are dropping the ball again and I'm very happy I resisted the urge to spend money these past two double RP events. Its like I knew some HAMSTER was coming this way, I could smell your BS so to speak.

Whatever you do make sure not to break the class because I dont wanna leave yet. The games Im looking forward to are due in 2017. Till then I kindly ask you @panderus @asterdahl Please dont HAMSTER up!

PS: Kind Regards

dupeks · October 2016

emilemo said:
1) in PVE I call it a bs change that makes no sense unless BO somehow makes FBI trivial. If thats the case then sure ok, do it.

You answered your own question

And if it makes current content trivial then it will likely continue to be an issue with the new content they are developing. Being able to ignore the "punishment" party-wide lethal damage assigned for not respecting boss mechanics that they are including in a lot of these new boss fights is kind of a problem for their balance.

Finally, it's abundantly clear that the devs are making balance changes strictly based on PvE. They've said this. The existing evidence is consistent. I know it sucks, but PvP will continue to remain broken for some time.

galopikus · October 2016

There is supposed to be ways to counter each of the boss powers otherwise we would all die and never be able to complete the dungeons. BO just happens to be that against the huge overpowered wave of destruction the fangbreaker boss throws out. Sometimes we can hide behind the ice shards she summons, but a lot of times she herself destroys them and we're left with nothing to protect us from that damage, an OP can at least throw up BO with Divine protector to protect the group, but then the damage is still too much and once BO wears off the OP will die.
The boss still has an ability that not even BO can stand up to; getting stuck in those ice shards. Those ice shards are death to all, no matter their powers, unless their teammates can get them out in time. There is something where each of us are needed and where each of us can be defeated. That being said, no one person or power can make a dungeon trivial, it is the make-up of the whole team and how everyone plays together that makes it seem like it's easy.

dupeks · October 2016

galopikus said:
There is supposed to be ways to counter each of the boss powers otherwise we would all die and never be able to complete the dungeons. BO just happens to be that against the huge overpowered wave of destruction the fangbreaker boss throws out. Sometimes we can hide behind the ice shards she summons, but a lot of times she herself destroys them and we're left with nothing to protect us from that damage

I think part of the challenge of the FBI bossfight is that it requires maneuvering Drufi so that she doesn't destroy the permafrost shards. I agree that it's buggy, but I don't think the intent was that you're supposed to use BO to deal with the buggyness.

galopikus said:
OP can at least throw up BO with Divine protector to protect the group, but then the damage is still too much and once BO wears off the OP will die.

With a high recovery / other sources of cooldown reduction, you can cast BO a second time before it "pops". Doing so resets any accumulated damage with no consequences to you.

galopikus said:
That being said, no one person or power can make a dungeon trivial, it is the make-up of the whole team and how everyone plays together that makes it seem like it's easy.

I both agree and disagree. There really isn't a solo cheese anymore. But there are a number of cheesy classes and powers, once you get up to the high end, which allow a party to ignore most boss mechanics and just muscle through content. Perma-BO-Perma-Bubble OP is the example referenced above. There are a number of others too, but I won't list them here to invite anger from others.

sh0ckg · October 2016

The great thing is they will at least fix the taunting mechanic with BO.

emilemo · October 2016

sh0ckg#5177 said:
The great thing is they will at least fix the taunting mechanic with BO.

Agreed.

As for FBI, Im not doing it along with what Id guess is the majority of the population. Im not putting myself thru the relic gear grind or this new dungeon because its too much of a hassle for too little a reward. And of course I know Cryptic will just release new tier of stuff later on so skipping is OK.. Ahh man Im getting tired of this game again, its just too much bs

armadeonx · October 2016

SKT launches on xbox next week and I too have absolutely no intention of running FBI as I see no point in owning gear that requires constant farming to remain effective. I don't mind grind that is time limited, but continuous? No.

As for BO, are they making other changes to the pally or just adding an extra nerf due to the previous ones not making the paladin irrelevant enough? We are already in the position of being 2nd class to the GF. Even with the ITF nerf, they still provide an almost constant 25% dps buff which is fine but the pally needs to be able to compete. E.g. Aura of Courage should be boosted to provide more than a minor dps buff and the power-share feat should have it's 6 second requirement removed.

As far as pvp goes the answer as always is to make tenacity apply to piercing damage...

edit - I think to be fair, Sanctuary should be immune to irresistible damage.

emilemo · October 2016

@armadeonx the dev in charge of changes or should I say the dev who posts about the changes said they were looking into the Paladin class still soo Id guess further adjustments are to be expected. Unfortunately I expect those adjustments to be more nerfs based on what I've seen so far. I mean they nerf Binding Oath and boost Sanctuary to 80% DR from 60% as a means to compensate? Right, only it wont compensate for anything at all. Unlike the GF block our Sanctuary does not provide a separate layer of protection, it simply adds to our own DR.. So, tanky Paladins who are already at the DR cap use it only for cc protection.. However, considering its bugged activation time you have to anticipate the coming cc and use before it actually fires so in reality the Paladin play actually takes some thinking rather than facerolling like many people would like you to believe..

*sigh* everywhere I look I see broken stuff and people hating it or people defending it.. Honestly I just got back to the game and yet I already feel tired of it. My initial thought was that the game has improved from the time I left, what I think now is that they simply got a bit better at presenting the same old bs

nightranger7477 · October 2016

I am of the same opinion with sanctuary it's near useless in a fight, the activation takes way too long for it to be reliable for cc immunity, BO needed no changes other than the taunting ability being fixed, and yes we are still 2nd class tanks even after the GF "balance" it seems like the Devs are trying to drive ppl away from playing a paladin character with each patch, very disheartening indeed.

slappdaniel · October 2016

emilemo said:
So for those who dont visit preview be it on forums or ingame here's the short version. Devs want to change Binding Oath so it doesnt block Irresistible damage anymore. Basically everfrost will damage you through BO and I guess piercing damage from rogues and hunters will also damage you through BO. How do I, as a Pally main player, feel about it?

1) in PVE I call it a bs change that makes no sense unless BO somehow makes FBI trivial. If thats the case then sure ok, do it. But how about instead of messing with our powers fix our bugs first? Are you devs aware that one Mr Orcus can kill OPs through BO sometimes?

2)in PVP the change is pure rubbish. As it stands only 2 classes have access to irresistible damage and only 1 class can become immune to it (for 8 seconds). The DC also gets a mention here because empowered AS does seem to mitigate even piercing dmg. Anyway, this is about Paladins and since Im making this thread I'll speak from my pov. My OP does PVP in full prestige gear. Even with 10k Arm Pen, 18k Power and 10k Crit I can pretty much only kill undergeared players or players who somebody else already depleted of health - Why? - Because our encounters are weak thats why! My one trump card in PVP is being the super hard to kill guy who goes from node to node and counters 1hit-kill rogues or high IL rangers who can end most player characters in mere seconds. If BO starts letting the piercing damage through my Pally wont even be a good punching bag anymore. Whats the deal here devs cause it sure looks like you're telling us Paladins cant kill and cant stay alive? What are we supposed to do? Use the brand new 80% from bugged Sanctuary to survive? You guys are dropping the ball again and I'm very happy I resisted the urge to spend money these past two double RP events. Its like I knew some HAMSTER was coming this way, I could smell your BS so to speak.

Whatever you do make sure not to break the class because I dont wanna leave yet. The games Im looking forward to are due in 2017. Till then I kindly ask you @panderus @asterdahl Please dont HAMSTER up!

PS: Kind Regards

1) the change doesnt matter. giants in fbi will be a bit harder and thats it. At endgame dungeons like fbi and cn your not using binding oath for bosses anyway.

2) pvp is bs in nw, so no point to talk about it. there are much better games for pvp.

armadeonx said:
SKT launches on xbox next week and I too have absolutely no intention of running FBI as I see no point in owning gear that requires constant farming to remain effective. I don't mind grind that is time limited, but continuous? No.

As for BO, are they making other changes to the pally or just adding an extra nerf due to the previous ones not making the paladin irrelevant enough? We are already in the position of being 2nd class to the GF. Even with the ITF nerf, they still provide an almost constant 25% dps buff which is fine but the pally needs to be able to compete. E.g. Aura of Courage should be boosted to provide more than a minor dps buff and the power-share feat should have it's 6 second requirement removed.

As far as pvp goes the answer as always is to make tenacity apply to piercing damage...

edit - I think to be fair, Sanctuary should be immune to irresistible damage.

tactican gf and op are even in buffing potential (Aura of Courage is fine as it is. Its more than a minor dps buff. For cws its most of the time the top damage spell. It varies very much from class to class though). conqueror gf on the other hand is far ahead in damage (thanks to commanders strike) while obviously losing alot of tankiness.

balufunke · October 2016

@slappdaniel well, for me it´s vice versa, I only use binding oath at boss fights.

emilemo · October 2016

balufunke said:
@slappdaniel well, for me it´s vice versa, I only use binding oath at boss fights.

Naturally, in CN for example I may use BO for the beholder and definitely for Orcus, the normal mobs are better handled via Burning Light and the squid-face cant kill my pally anyway. Honestly this change appears to be solely for FBI and future everfrost or similar damage in PVE. As I said in the opening post my gripe here is PVP. I cant kill a rogue or a ranger in PVP currently and they cant kill me either thanks to BO. After the change I still wont be able to kill a rogue or a ranger but they will have the means to kill me so what gives? I've always known BO was the thing making a Prot Pally relevant in a pvp match and even if PVP will never be a focus for the dev effort it still is a part of the game and must be (somewhat) balanced.

ruigat911 · October 2016

In previous variants not smart enough, so a new variants:
Oathbound Paladin
Binding Oath
Binding Oath now has the following effect: For 5 seconds, nearby enemies are forced to attack you and you gain 100% of your Maximum Hit Points as a Shield. When this effect expires or the shield is depleted foes in a 30' area take 100% of the damage that was taken by the shield and you take 50% of that damage. Additional ranks increase the duration of the shield by 1 second.
Binding Oath previously had the following effect: Nearby targets are forced to attack you for 2 seconds. During this time you absorb all damage dealt to you. When this effect expires you takes 50% of that damage and deal 20% of it to all foes in a 30' area. (The damage dealt to each target cannot exceed your Maximum Hit Points. Players affected by this power deal 75% less damage to all targets except for you. Additional ranks increased the duration of the effect by 2 seconds.
Binding Oath did now properly taunts, as indicated.
The effect of decreasing damage dealt against the Paladin who uses Binding Oath in PvP did not work as indicated. This effect was removed.

ruigat911 · October 2016

With this option Binding Oath, it would be quite difficult in PVE

emilemo · October 2016

ruigat911 said:
With this option Binding Oath, it would be quite difficult in PVE

Tanking Orcus as a Pally will be interesting to see. I wont bother tho. As I said in another thread I'll just use my 3.8k Pally for Valindra's Tower if I even play at all.

armadeonx · October 2016

I can absorb up to 3 hits from Orcus without temp health so I'm guessing the BO changes will mean a shortening of it's duration due to it maxing out but this also means I'll take less of a hit from the 50%.

With Shielding Strike, Templars and Bane, plus the extra recovery from the Lightning enchantment it shouldn't be a problem.

I doubt I'll be running FBI as I cannot stand the thought of farming for the armor and its maintenance.

demonmonger · October 2016

I am a TR 4000 item level and I support this users message. Let the op stay immune.

They are the only fun ones left to fight in pvp.

emilemo · October 2016

armadeonx said:
I can absorb up to 3 hits from Orcus without temp health so I'm guessing the BO changes will mean a shortening of it's duration due to it maxing out but this also means I'll take less of a hit from the 50%.

With Shielding Strike, Templars and Bane, plus the extra recovery from the Lightning enchantment it shouldn't be a problem.

I doubt I'll be running FBI as I cannot stand the thought of farming for the armor and its maintenance.

You can absorb 3 hits from Orcus without temp hp? Without BO, without a cleric buffing you too? Teach me senpai!

Anyway Im holding off my final word on this until I actually see someone tank Orcus on live with a pally next mod. Till then tho I maintain my disdain of these changes.

emilemo · October 2016

demonmonger said:
I am a TR 4000 item level and I support this users message. Let the op stay immune.

They are the only fun ones left to fight in pvp.

You are a fun guy to meet in PVP but alas Ive met you only once and the chances of meeting again are getting from slim to none as we speak.

sadus671 · October 2016

emilemo said:
@armadeonx the dev in charge of changes or should I say the dev who posts about the changes said they were looking into the Paladin class still soo Id guess further adjustments are to be expected. Unfortunately I expect those adjustments to be more nerfs based on what I've seen so far. I mean they nerf Binding Oath and boost Sanctuary to 80% DR from 60% as a means to compensate? Right, only it wont compensate for anything at all. Unlike the GF block our Sanctuary does not provide a separate layer of protection, it simply adds to our own DR.. So, tanky Paladins who are already at the DR cap use it only for cc protection.. However, considering its bugged activation time you have to anticipate the coming cc and use before it actually fires so in reality the Paladin play actually takes some thinking rather than facerolling like many people would like you to believe..

*sigh* everywhere I look I see broken stuff and people hating it or people defending it.. Honestly I just got back to the game and yet I already feel tired of it. My initial thought was that the game has improved from the time I left, what I think now is that they simply got a bit better at presenting the same old bs

Bold/Underlined statement is why I retired my 4k OP Tank post bubble nerf... and geared my GF....

armadeonx · October 2016

@emilemo I'm currently sitting at 74% DR passively and use Shielding Strike most of the time. With just that I can take 2 to 3 hits with no temp health - it is important to complete the strike sequence before using encounters so you get the shield.

The couple of times I've had to see how many hits I can take like this (whilst also running courage and wisdom) were in CN with no DC, just me and 4 DPS. (I usually pug so often load into groups that aren't exactly perfect lol)

With temp health up plus Bane I'm almost at the point where I don't need BO at all.

I know a lot of OP's aim for v. high HP at the expense of DR to boost aura of courage and the return value on BO - and I've seen that can be very effective but I've taken a different strategy with my guy. I'm aiming at 80% DR passively plus aoe resistance so I can use Bane, Smite, BL etc as required to debuff bosses rather than just rely on the soak & return of BO, especially as I use a trans lightning for threat instead of a debuff ench.

I'm currently sitting at 3.25k but should be around 3.5-3.6k at the next 2xRP but I set out as a lowly 2.4k when the bubble was nerfed with a goal to prove the pally can exist without the bubble and I feel I've made a lot of progress.

The OP definitely needs a rethink on some skills. We have a kind of duplication of ability with SoF and DP. Imo they need to buff SoF a little and completely change DP to a debuff daily, a single target one for bosses would be great. E.g. applying a daily that reduced single target DPS and increased their incoming damage by say 30% for up to 8 seconds?

I currently have 26k power, 21k defence, 60% RI and 140k HP. With my current plans I should get my HP to about 155-160k within the next 8 weeks (unless I tweak my strategy lol, I've done that quite a bit so far)

emilemo · October 2016

We have a duplication on a lot of abilities and only 1 of each group actually being good:

divine touch/ templar wrath / absolution / and now BO - TW being the most useful

bane / vow / sacred weapon / cop / - whoever casts vow on anything ? sacred weapon? Nope. Circle of power i like but the use is only for solo pve to speed kills up. The only one of those with party significance is of course Bane.

sof / dp - sof becoming the better one

One really good ability on the pally is BL, i love it, its strong, its unique - slow cast but heck nothing's perfect right. The rest is a mash of some shields and a copy of the GF lunge. Smite is interesting but I havent used it in parties.

Awesome job on building your pally tank without BO in mind. My own has around 65%(75 with call)% DR passively, would be easy to push it to 80 but I dont want to. I mean why do we have Sanctuary? A major class feature - Sanctuary - is bloody useless on max DR paladins. I can see how the devs might think "- hey we cant allow tanks to tank without the tanking stat ( DR ) " and i can understand that. But at the same time they have rangers ignoring any and all resistances without the appropriate stat (arm pen)..

Oh I forgot to say I play as much pvp as i do pve and I have built my pally with damage and DR both in mind. In any case we should be able to reduce damage inherently at least as good as GFs do. A dps GF can have only ~50% DR but still can reduce any hit by 80% before it even reaches his passive DR. We cant do that.

But my real problem with the new BO is this - what happens with the excess damage? Your BO shield equals your HP, a big hit will go well above that and your BO shield will break immediately dealing 50% of the dmg it absorbed to you. However the rest of the big hit that went over the BO shield will probably kill you.

hastur905 · October 2016

I posted in the shard, but if BO gave 300% HP like Wrath it might be more usable.

Binding Oath changes on PREVIEW - this will be about PVP/PVE

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