So I have some ideas.

koross · August 2016

I'm looking at the OP, and skimming through what's being said, and I'm brainstorming ways to make the Paladin, my general class of choice in any game with the option to be such, better, and I've come up with some stuff.
First, look at the ability choices. We've got CON as primary. Good choice, excellent for either of the two paths. CHA as a secondary, still good. Paladins use that for their spells in current D&D. Nice. WIS as another secondary. Not so great now that CHA does it's old job, huh? WIS as the other secondary means that we'll have guys running around in plate armor, with tower shields and heavy maces, but with only 10 STR, if the player is maximizing their rolls with the recommended stats. What kind of sense does that make?
I thusly first recommend that as a change. Trade WIS for STR, change the 1% Crit for Damage on that roll, and then, keeping with the tank idea for the Oath of Protection, throw in an X% additional threat generated with each point over 10. Make CHA the casting stat, with X% additional healing per point above 10, along with additional cooldown reduction on CHA. The Oath of Protection line focuses on CON and STR, while Devotion focuses more on CON and CHA.
Having high HP seems to be a huge focus for Paladins of both trees, so why not also make Devotion use that more than just for the radiant damage aura? Have the devotion exclusive healing skills heal for a % of the Devotion Paladin's max HP. The regular skills with healing on them that either tree gets anyway would retain the power based static numbers, but all that extra HP turns into more HP healed for your buddies.
I was coming up with a storm of ideas before, but this is what I can remember after having slept on it, lol. Keep in mind, I'm not a game developer or anything, just someone who loves Paladin as a class, and feels like he knows everything for whatever reason, thus giving him a right to question the developers of this excellent game. I just feel, especially on the Ability score thing, that it kind of missed the flavor of the Paladin a bit, being a front-line fighter and all. Alright, fellow paladin enthusiasts, lemme know what you think.
Edit, missed a word at the beginning, lol.

soonergm · August 2016

yeah... i don't know because really this game is very strange for being d&d anyway. i mean we should have bonuses vs. undead and things like that, but none of those kind of mechanics are in this game.

your proposal of STR and CON is more traditional, but does it work for Neverwinter?

the devotion tree, does it even need more healing? its already considered the strongest healer in the game.

koross · August 2016

I don't know much about Devotion, honestly. I just figured it would be cool to tie in what it does with the stat that the game seems to want paladins of any type to stack.
I honestly do think having STR instead of WIS as the tankadin stat to focus on after CON makes a lot more sense especially because of the style of Neverwinter. As a melee tanking class, we'll be swinging the ever-loving bejeesus out of our maces in order to hold threat and just generally to fight things when soloing, so why wouldn't the character be physically strong? Not forgetting the problem with just how heavy plate is anyway, from an in game flavor point of view.
We're mowing down droves of trash mobs, generally regardless of class choice.
That any class, even one that is supposed to be focused on tanking or healing, like, say, GFs or DCs, wouldn't have an offensive stat that makes sense with the class makes even less sense in an action rpg.

Unknown · August 2016

This content has been removed.

koross · August 2016

And isn't that a shame?
I don't want to play a paladin as a healer. Having some abilities that let me heal is fine, and having the option to focus on them is just fine for other people, but there is obviously something wrong with how the tanking spec works. It seems to me that paladins try to tank, but find that just playing normally doesn't work so well for a class made to tank. So we find loopholes and exploits to help us do the kind of damage that we need to do to hold the aggro. People complain about it because they're having a harder time topping the dps charts, or whatever their priority is, so the method we find to hold aggro gets patched out. I'm told we get, as Protection Paladins, a feature which boosts our threat generation by 500%. The general consensus is that it's bugged and doesn't work, but maybe the problem is that even with boosted threat generated we aren't hitting hard enough for it to matter. Our small hits are bouncing off at 500% extra threat while everyone else is generating twice that just working as a DPS. We need to be allowed to do damage, which would take an overhaul of the class. During this overhaul, I think we could use that change of ability scores and the extra threat generated through an ability score to help us stay the tanks, while changing the current flavor of the class to fit the way paladins are generally played and seen. You can't tank without damaging the enemy, it's that simple.

soonergm · August 2016

i run with a GF pretty regularly, with my paladin. i often pull aggro from him. i have no issues getting aggro, the problem that i have is maintaining it consistently. is more DPS the correct solution? I know it can work, especially when everyone was lower geared, we had bubbles, and i lead the DPS charts. however, the GFs that i usually run with are LAST on the DPS charts, and they hold aggro really well.

another issue, one of the better encounters we have for damage, threat generation, and AP gain is relentless avenger. well, obviously nobody likes the blow back. this encounter can still be used... i like to open the fight with it. it jumps me to the mob before anyone gets there, and when everyone arrives the mob is gathered up. it's also nice to use to finish the fight and kill everything. however the rest of the time it's taking up an encounter slot, which sucks.

the other problem i have as a protection pally is mitigating the damage dealt to allies, mainly from AoE. if you can't maintain your bubble, the alternative is shield of faith, which just simply is not as good as the GF's knights valor.

with your proposal about STR, how does that impact us with the loss of what WIS provides us?

koross · August 2016

The problem I'm seeing there being that, once again, as a class that is supposed to be generating tons and tons of threat, you're having trouble holding onto it. I get that the GF is also a tanking class, but if they're keeping up in threat, there's either something busted with pally threat or that GF is really working it. I mean, like, really putting in some overtime there, which sounds screwy if their damage is trailing that much.
Another problem that I'm hearing about is that Prot Pallys are apparently much squishier all of a sudden, which is throwing lots of people off.
My idea with ability scores is one that would probably only, if ever at all, be seen after an overhaul of the class, but I figure it could look like this:
Primary: Constitution. Used for both specs. %HP, %DR,
Secondary: Strength. Used Primarily for Tanking spec. %Damage (Replacing %Crit, from WIS), %Threat Generated, for a little boost towards maintaining that mob hatred, %DoT Resistance, %Stamina Regen.
Secondary: Charisma. Used Primarily for healing spec. %Healing Bonus (From WIS), %AP Gain, %Combat Advantage Damage, %Companion Stat Bonus.
Would that look good? I'm remembering that Paladins have a feat that let's them effectively get one of the bonuses from one secondary on another. Maybe STR could grab a weaker dose of %Ap Gain, while CHA could nab %Stamina Regen.

soonergm · August 2016

yah i mean it's simple enough, it may work. i wish there were more people willing to voice their thoughts... there are many views to the threads in this section but very little comments. the devs will never do anything for the paladin class unless the people playing start making some kind of noise. all the other classes do it. so far the only changes made to paladins were based off of opinions of players from all the other classes.

koross · August 2016

That really sucks man. Honestly, I'm just coming back from a long time away. I played on PC back when the game came out, and off and on since then. I'm back for the PS4 release, and while the ability score setup always bugged me, I only just now thought to say anything about it, since I'll soon be playing as one with some friends. I wonder how we could go about riling the other paladins into action, to get some of the changes that we want, rather than just being bent to the will of the people who main other classes.

silverkelt · August 2016

theslotharmy#3268 said:
Paladins have terrible damage and terrible threat generation.
They are barely tanks.

slot radiance & courage, hit tab while at the bosses , they do fine, if you cant hold it with that, slot Vow of enmity.. Ive yet to see even top end damage makers steal it after that.. the ISSUE isnt that they cant hold aggro the issue is that they pretty much get screwed with going aggro route, because you only have so many slots. So dropping bane for enemity and wisdom for radiance.. sort of screws you as a buffer as well. You could maybe drop templars wrath.. but you can never drop binding oath , especially at bosses. Its a tough choice. If they ever fix binding oath to actually be a aggro generator its supposed to be, that would fix most of the aggro issues.

for damage, your right, they dont match even close what a GF can perform.

soonergm · August 2016

@silverkelt yep, as you say you can use those 2 passives, and those encounters. but as you also allude to, that forces the class to play a certain way. as the devs keep stating in these class balances, that is not what they want. we shouldn't have to all be locked to using the exact same powers, just to be able to achieve our most basic functions as a tank.

i don't get your comment about GF damage though. most of them that i see on XB1 hardly do any damage at all, often less than clerics. i did run with a GF the other day that beat our whole team in damage in eLoL.. it wasn't even close. i don't know what he was doing. i was on my HR, we had a SW and a TR and a cleric, all from the same guild. the GF was in Look Good Play Good, but he's the only one i have seen like that.

silverkelt · August 2016

A gf has a ton of base damage + a ton of burst damage as a result, when fully specced for all offense with r12 bondings and the such, they can achieve high end offensive #s, similar to other strikers, some of the rampant burst via anvil is going to be pared down, but if you build this tank this way, you will see some very impressive #s. You can be "close" to other high end strikers with a GF, you cannot do this with a paladin, the best "dps" paladins I know dont even come close to that.

ITs more of a striker hybrid tank in its current meta, its just sorta weird, Ive resigned my self to the fact , that this is the way they want it. If you wanted to roll a GF and just be dps, you "could" actually do that.

I will only combat items that I think are brokenly OP in the game at this time. I dont care about individual classes anymore.. its too much of a struggle to care , I just want things that are overly broken fixed, so at least the game isnt just a rampant 1 shot boss thing anymore.

koross · August 2016

I can attest to the GF damage. Upon coming back, that was what I rolled, and I've gotten to about 65. The only things that have really stopped me so far are the bigger heroic encounters in the elemental evil campaign, which is where I started, and a few times I decided to try to fight a dragon with maybe one other person, and the main thing is that I statted for mostly power and defense. It's working out very well.
If what I'm hearing is correct about Paladins, a modest boost to damage wouldn't be a bad thing, considering how GFs are, with this next module, getting a boost to their sustained damage.
Well, so long as everyone doesn't get these damage boosts, then the enemies immediately get a spike in damage resistance.
So, what do you guys think of paladins? Where do you feel they should go? Perhaps together we can come up with some viable changes that can be made. Changes that the devs would consider.
Edit: I'm not just talking to the people who've posted in the thread, by the way. We've got too many views for it to just be us popping in, and I'm sure more feedback would be good for what we're trying to do.

silverkelt · August 2016

What I would do to paladin.

Remove the justice feat echoes of light, and instead PARE down encounters by like 10% to 50% or 70% on some of them! They are just too long and prohibit people from building anything but justice tree paladins.

I would fix binding oath to add aggro threat that actual works!

I would increase at will damage by say 15% .

This would fix alot of thier issues.

More aggro, little more dps, ability to spread to other feat trees.

There isnt all that much wrong with paladins tbh.

soonergm · August 2016

silverkelt said:
What I would do to paladin.

Remove the justice feat echoes of light, and instead PARE down encounters by like 10% to 50% or 70% on some of them! They are just too long and prohibit people from building anything but justice tree paladins.

I would fix binding oath to add aggro threat that actual works!

I would increase at will damage by say 15% .

This would fix alot of thier issues.

More aggro, little more dps, ability to spread to other feat trees.

There isnt all that much wrong with paladins tbh.

i agree with all of this. it doesn't need a major overhaul like some of the other classes, just some tweaks.

i have never played with bulwark, but it seems a little over kill considering you can tank anything without any of the feats in that tree. maybe put some buffs/debuffs to party or damage mitigation to the party and not so much mitigation to self.

koross · August 2016

His ideas look good, as entirely hung up on this STR thing as I am. I understand that at best the next paladin archetype, say a Crusader Paladin or something like that, would have the true paladin ability score setup. I honestly believe a better type setup would have been defender or group support, rather than defender or healer, considering the original class of paladin and their low amount of available divine casting. They honestly shouldn't be the best healers. In the support role, keeping friends alive and using that charisma score for some clutch heals and a whole lot of playing around with enemy and ally stats.
The tank could work about the same, just with the aforementioned changes to dealt damage.

algaefree · August 2016

My wife calls me a soloing HAMSTER as a paladin. Mostly because, group content is not difficult to defeat its just a matter of time. So often I end up doing my daily campaign stuff and than helping her afterwards. This is great for new players it allows them to get through content and explore the world of Neverwinter with minimal gear requirements. However as many have stated we are not desirable to groups as we do not do much for anyone else, but ourselves. What the class really needs "besides aggro being fixed," is an ability that gives us some synergy with groups. For instance the cleric works very well with the guardian fighter. Largely because, when a cleric drops astral shield and the gf does a certain ability inside the shield the result is a huge damage burst for the group. I'd like to see something like a Yaulp type ability. Yaulp when its cast would give your group a buff "focused spiritual energy," which increases the groups chance to crit to 100% for 4 seconds rank 1 each rank adds 1 second so at rank 4 it would be 7 seconds. This should be a level 70 ability. Now we have something people will be able to work with and that increases the need for teamwork as well as desirability.

soonergm · August 2016

i feel like if we get more buffing abilities then they would turn right around and nerf us.

we provide quite a bit. you can manipulate some things depending on your party make up.

aura of courage - everyone's go to. self and allies deal 1% of your max HP as radiant. get near 200k HP and things happen.
aura of wisdom - self and allies get 25% recharge speed increase. great if you have SW and CW in party as primary DPS.
aura of wrath - self and allies gain 35% increase damage as HP diminishes. sometime's i switch to this from wisdom if the primary DPS in party is GWF or HR Trapper. GWF doesn't need encounters, and Trappers don't need the recharge.
bane - encounter that stacks up to 30% damage debuff to target, as well as buff damage to target by 30%.
aura of gifts - feat that you can spec in to in the Light tree that let's you share up to 25% power.

that is a lot of options that buff party damage, and most of them you can do at the same time. plus if you want, you can provide healing as well. and oh btw, we are pretty good tanks.

the GF and cleric combo buffs party damage by up to 300%, which is why it's getting nerfed, that's too much according to the devs. after the nerf the GF's ITF will only buff the party by about 32%(i think). as it stands, we blow that out of the water. i'd rather not get more abilities that buff and then they turn right around and nerf everything in to oblivion.

algaefree · August 2016

We have a very similiar build I suspect Justice with some light paragon? Anyhow maybe your right I'm at 3159 iL I have 53%dr. All of my defensive slots are filled with Azure rank 10's perhaps I should go full hps and see what happens although I'm not sure what that'll do for me as far as tanking being under 50%dr. Anyhow I just proposed this as of right now we can't compete and I really don't think the GFers who put tons of resources into their characters should be nerfed instead we should be buffed up. Although by the end of the night seeing blah blah looking for GF for melt runs starts to become an eyesore.

koross · August 2016

It seems like a big problem leading to us getting nerfed is pvp, where we are supposedly unkillable. Perhaps if some things were rebalanced in pvp, we could get some actual, constructive reworking done, rather than pissed off members of other classes dictating how we're going to play.

So I have some ideas.

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