Feytouched. Crit damage sucks in PvP because at high values of tenacity, after about 42-43%, crit damage at base values start to do less than non-crits.
Yup Fey for PvP and Dread/Vorpal for PvE... I sold my Fey a couple of days ago for a few million though as I don't see us being any better in PvP for the foreseeable future. I may get it back off the AH if things do improve though
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
I find that in BiS pvp (although I'm not a pvp build) Feytouched doesn't help all that much. I sold mine because I found that Dread's extra damage against less tanky players was more fun than surviving fights while not killing. Once they fixed Dread's debuff and I had a full complement of insignia bonuses, I found that I rarely wanted to switch back to my Feytouched. Your mileage may vary.
Defense is the defense stat which most players won't have that much of, and it's also a relative debuff to how much stats they have. Most of the defensive sources atm come from Tenacity and actual DR, both of which are not affected by the Dread enchantment debuff.
The same goes for the power debuff, which nowadays is actually fairly sizable but again, a lot of damage comes from a class's damage buff sources/feats, such as ITF and Destroyer, and while stats are another portion of that, the overall damage debuff will be more or less the same or weaker than Feytouched. Why? Because Feytouched is a multiplier that reduces the final damage, so if you take base damage to be 100%, and a class has a 100% damage boost from feats, stats and buffs, then the final reduction Feytouched does is actually a "36%" reduction of the base damage. Dread might debuff 40% power, but we'll say that at least 50-60% of that damage bonus a class has is from feats/buffs/ability scores/so on, not power. So realistically, you're only removing 20% of the base damage vs the 36% that Feytouched does. Feytouched also becomes far better against classes such as GWF, which have higher damage multipliers than most classes.
This also applies in reverse for the damage buff; Feytouched multiplies your final damage.
Additionally, because of the existence of Tenacity, critical damage is largely reduced in PvP. I don't remember the exact Tenacity value that people run in PvP right now, but if we take the value to be around 45%, then the damage calculations would be something like this:
In layman's terms, at maximum, a non-critical hit will do 55% of its original damage, while a critical hit will do at most 30.25% of its original damage, because Tenacity applies twice to critical hits. While critical hits do more than non-critical by default, Tenacity makes it almost only ~30% of the original damage, so in the end, critical hits actually end up doing less than non-criticals (assuming no critical damage modifiers). Here's an example. Let's take target Tenacity as 45%, with no DR/DR mitigated by ARP. Base damage value is 10,000. Critical severity is 75%.
As you can see, at base critical severity values, critical hits actually do less than non-critical hits at 45% tenacity. I think this starts happening around 42-43% (I'll have to check), but either way, the damage between crits and non-crits is similar enough that stacking critical chance doesn't give a damage boost at all, even possibly a damage decrease. If you want to see this comparison with Dread and Feytouched using the above example:
Non-critical hit with Feytouched: 10,000 * (1 - 0.45) * 1.18 = 6,490 damage Non-critical hit with Dread: 10,000 * (1 - 0.45) = 5,500 damage Critical hit with Feytouched: 10,000 * 1.75 * (1 - 0.45)^2 * 1.18 = 6,247 damage Critical hit with Dread: 10,000 * (1.75 + 0.75) * (1 - 0.45)^2 = 7,562 damage
In this case, these are the direct damage comparisons:
Non-critical hit: Feytouched does 18% more damage than Dread Critical hit: Dread does 21% more damage than Feytouched
In order for Dread to do the same or more damage than Feytouched, you need at least 48-49% critical chance roughly, at which point the stats you spend stacking into critical chance could have been used on power to achieve more damage. Example, although the increase from power isn't as linear as it seems (because relativity), you get 1% damage per 400 points of power and 1% critical chance per 400 points of critical strike. If we say you start at base 30% critical chance, in order to get to 50% critical chance, you'd need 8000 points of critical strike to achieve that. That's just to get Dread to a slightly higher damage increase than Feytouched, if not the same. If you went for Feytouched, you would stack power instead, so that's 8000 points of power which is a 20% damage increase, so in that case, you actually have more than 15% damage over Dread, without having to rely on critical chance rng. Additionally, as I said earlier, the debuff from Feytouched does end up stronger than the debuff from Dread.
And finally, another perspective to the argument however, is that Dread's debuff gets stronger the more defense a target has, as well as the critical damage. This is where things start getting a bit complicated, and I'll try explain it the best I can. The maximum amount of damage a target can mitigate before you count deflect and HP shields is 80%. Hence, the maximum DR, including DR from Tenacity, is 80%. Any values of DR that go higher still technically exist, but only to mitigate your armor penetration. Say a target has 100% DR, and you have 20% armor pen. While the cap is 80%, your armor penetration applies before this cap, so your target will still mitigate 80% of your damage. In order to actually mitigate DR past 80% when they have 100%, you need at least 21% armor penetration, at which point you'll do 79% of your damage, which is a relative damage increase of something like 1.2% or something like that. However, keep in mind that you cannot mitigate the DR from Tenacity, which is multiplicative with your base DR and multiplicative twice in the case of crits, so at 45% Tenacity your target will always have a minimum of 45% DR or 69.75% in in the case of crits. The only exception to this rule are "hard" armor penetration sources, such as GF's Mark and the Bronzewood enchantment, which directly reduce DR.
The reason why I'm mentioning this is because some classes, namely GWF, GF, OP, and some cases of SW and DC, can actually reach values of DR higher than 80%. Multiplied with Tenacity, this value can get insanely high to the point where you won't ever mitigate past 80% unless you stack absurd amounts of Armor Penetration. In this case that gets pointless because the increase you get past 80% is barely anything, and only works on those specific classes. Here is where Dread will actually really shine, because both critical hits and non-critical hits will be at 80% "effectiveness", which is the measure of how much an attack is mitigated. In this case, since both critical hits and non-critical hits do 20% of their original damage before deflect, Dread is a flat damage increase relative to your critical severity, so at 75% base severity, it's roughly a 42% damage increase.
tl;dr Feytouched is better overall, but if you're always fighting targets with extremely high DR (>80% post-tenacity), such as GF/GWF/OP, then Dread will do more damage.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
After all that, I can hardly add anything worthwhile. Nevertheless, on similarly geared HRs using the same rotation, the one using Feytouched will win in a duel. For pvp I also recommend checking out KB11's Holy Avenger/Shadowclad build - there's some real logic to it, though of course the drawback is that HA is only up 1/3 of the time.
Considering that the more you crit the more you are going to apply weak roots hence dazes and procs of forestbound, i kinda prefer higher critical chance and compensate with dread enchantment. With the nerf to itf and the rework of swiftness of the fox i could probably swap to feytouch. Still longshot which i would like to take as feat requires a critical strike
Considering i like to do some pve i prefer dread.. I never change it even tho i have both enchants
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Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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The same goes for the power debuff, which nowadays is actually fairly sizable but again, a lot of damage comes from a class's damage buff sources/feats, such as ITF and Destroyer, and while stats are another portion of that, the overall damage debuff will be more or less the same or weaker than Feytouched. Why? Because Feytouched is a multiplier that reduces the final damage, so if you take base damage to be 100%, and a class has a 100% damage boost from feats, stats and buffs, then the final reduction Feytouched does is actually a "36%" reduction of the base damage. Dread might debuff 40% power, but we'll say that at least 50-60% of that damage bonus a class has is from feats/buffs/ability scores/so on, not power. So realistically, you're only removing 20% of the base damage vs the 36% that Feytouched does. Feytouched also becomes far better against classes such as GWF, which have higher damage multipliers than most classes.
This also applies in reverse for the damage buff; Feytouched multiplies your final damage.
Additionally, because of the existence of Tenacity, critical damage is largely reduced in PvP. I don't remember the exact Tenacity value that people run in PvP right now, but if we take the value to be around 45%, then the damage calculations would be something like this:
Non-critical hit: [DAMAGE] * (1 - [TENACITY]) * (1 - [DR])
which is, at 45% Tenacity: [DAMAGE] * (1 - 0.45) * (1 - [DR])= [DAMAGE] * 0.55 * (1 - [DR])
Critical hit: [DAMAGE] * (1 - [TENACITY]) * (1 - [TENACITY]) * (1 - [DR])
which is, at 45% Tenacity: [DAMAGE] * (1 - 0.45) * (1 - 0.45) = [DAMAGE] * 0.55 * 0.55 * (1 - [DR]) = [DAMAGE] * 0.3025 * (1 - [DR])
In layman's terms, at maximum, a non-critical hit will do 55% of its original damage, while a critical hit will do at most 30.25% of its original damage, because Tenacity applies twice to critical hits. While critical hits do more than non-critical by default, Tenacity makes it almost only ~30% of the original damage, so in the end, critical hits actually end up doing less than non-criticals (assuming no critical damage modifiers). Here's an example. Let's take target Tenacity as 45%, with no DR/DR mitigated by ARP. Base damage value is 10,000. Critical severity is 75%.
Non-critical hit: 10,000 * (1 - 0.45) = 5,500 damage
Critical hit: 10,000 * 1.75 * (1 - 0.45)^2 = 5,294 damage
As you can see, at base critical severity values, critical hits actually do less than non-critical hits at 45% tenacity. I think this starts happening around 42-43% (I'll have to check), but either way, the damage between crits and non-crits is similar enough that stacking critical chance doesn't give a damage boost at all, even possibly a damage decrease. If you want to see this comparison with Dread and Feytouched using the above example:
Non-critical hit with Feytouched: 10,000 * (1 - 0.45) * 1.18 = 6,490 damage
Non-critical hit with Dread: 10,000 * (1 - 0.45) = 5,500 damage
Critical hit with Feytouched: 10,000 * 1.75 * (1 - 0.45)^2 * 1.18 = 6,247 damage
Critical hit with Dread: 10,000 * (1.75 + 0.75) * (1 - 0.45)^2 = 7,562 damage
In this case, these are the direct damage comparisons:
Non-critical hit: Feytouched does 18% more damage than Dread
Critical hit: Dread does 21% more damage than Feytouched
In order for Dread to do the same or more damage than Feytouched, you need at least 48-49% critical chance roughly, at which point the stats you spend stacking into critical chance could have been used on power to achieve more damage. Example, although the increase from power isn't as linear as it seems (because relativity), you get 1% damage per 400 points of power and 1% critical chance per 400 points of critical strike. If we say you start at base 30% critical chance, in order to get to 50% critical chance, you'd need 8000 points of critical strike to achieve that. That's just to get Dread to a slightly higher damage increase than Feytouched, if not the same. If you went for Feytouched, you would stack power instead, so that's 8000 points of power which is a 20% damage increase, so in that case, you actually have more than 15% damage over Dread, without having to rely on critical chance rng. Additionally, as I said earlier, the debuff from Feytouched does end up stronger than the debuff from Dread.
And finally, another perspective to the argument however, is that Dread's debuff gets stronger the more defense a target has, as well as the critical damage. This is where things start getting a bit complicated, and I'll try explain it the best I can. The maximum amount of damage a target can mitigate before you count deflect and HP shields is 80%. Hence, the maximum DR, including DR from Tenacity, is 80%. Any values of DR that go higher still technically exist, but only to mitigate your armor penetration. Say a target has 100% DR, and you have 20% armor pen. While the cap is 80%, your armor penetration applies before this cap, so your target will still mitigate 80% of your damage. In order to actually mitigate DR past 80% when they have 100%, you need at least 21% armor penetration, at which point you'll do 79% of your damage, which is a relative damage increase of something like 1.2% or something like that. However, keep in mind that you cannot mitigate the DR from Tenacity, which is multiplicative with your base DR and multiplicative twice in the case of crits, so at 45% Tenacity your target will always have a minimum of 45% DR or 69.75% in in the case of crits. The only exception to this rule are "hard" armor penetration sources, such as GF's Mark and the Bronzewood enchantment, which directly reduce DR.
The reason why I'm mentioning this is because some classes, namely GWF, GF, OP, and some cases of SW and DC, can actually reach values of DR higher than 80%. Multiplied with Tenacity, this value can get insanely high to the point where you won't ever mitigate past 80% unless you stack absurd amounts of Armor Penetration. In this case that gets pointless because the increase you get past 80% is barely anything, and only works on those specific classes. Here is where Dread will actually really shine, because both critical hits and non-critical hits will be at 80% "effectiveness", which is the measure of how much an attack is mitigated. In this case, since both critical hits and non-critical hits do 20% of their original damage before deflect, Dread is a flat damage increase relative to your critical severity, so at 75% base severity, it's roughly a 42% damage increase.
tl;dr Feytouched is better overall, but if you're always fighting targets with extremely high DR (>80% post-tenacity), such as GF/GWF/OP, then Dread will do more damage.
Considering i like to do some pve i prefer dread.. I never change it even tho i have both enchants