Buff GF vs OP?

jobsalotofwork · July 2016

So with the changes to GF I'm m thinking op has the better buffs

The gF will have

ITF + mark + ???

Sadly I can't think of anything else so a 44% team bonus plus CA. CA can be acquired from many classes and GWF can also mark so a 36% gain assuming a tact GF - plus ap gain for tact capstone.

OP brings
Bane 30% more damage plus damage debuffs.
Courage which I find is huge for some classes and less so for others.
Wisdom again varies and can increase ap gain because faster encounters.
???

So what am I not taking into consideration?

Unknown · July 2016

This content has been removed.

klangeddin · July 2016

metalldjt said:

jobsalotofwork said:
So with the changes to GF I'm m thinking op has the better buffs

The gF will have

ITF + mark + ???

Sadly I can't think of anything else so a 44% team bonus plus CA. CA can be acquired from many classes and GWF can also mark so a 36% gain assuming a tact GF - plus ap gain for tact capstone.

OP brings

Bane 30% more damage plus damage debuffs.

Courage which I find is huge for some classes and less so for others.

Wisdom again varies and can increase ap gain because faster encounters.

???

So what am I not taking into consideration?
GF is a Defender/Controller
and paladin is a Defender/Leader

so what is a Leader supposed to do ?

Heal. And there's a dedicated path for that. They can be either Defender OR Leaders. They can't be both (no HAMSTER).
The GF is nowhere stated to be a GF a defender/controller. It can only be a defender, there's no path for control.

abrams121 · July 2016

Aggro management via enforced threat is a form of control.

thefabricant · July 2016

The GF also has the KC set as a BiS buff option, if you counting all buffs available.

theguiido · July 2016

klangeddin said:

metalldjt said:

jobsalotofwork said:
So with the changes to GF I'm m thinking op has the better buffs

The gF will have

ITF + mark + ???

Sadly I can't think of anything else so a 44% team bonus plus CA. CA can be acquired from many classes and GWF can also mark so a 36% gain assuming a tact GF - plus ap gain for tact capstone.

OP brings

Bane 30% more damage plus damage debuffs.

Courage which I find is huge for some classes and less so for others.

Wisdom again varies and can increase ap gain because faster encounters.

???

So what am I not taking into consideration?
GF is a Defender/Controller
and paladin is a Defender/Leader

so what is a Leader supposed to do ?
Heal. And there's a dedicated path for that. They can be either Defender OR Leaders. They can't be both (no ****).
The GF is nowhere stated to be a GF a defender/controller. It can only be a defender, there's no path for control.

It can be a defender, in some cases it can also be a striker and controller with some powers. It can be whatever you make the class to be with your build. Nothing like a leader like a Paladin but it's also very unclear on what the future is for the GF. I wonder how they will buff/change the paragon paths and feats to keep up with the OP as I am very concerned what purpose this class has now. Mod 5 all over again.

lantern22 · July 2016

I'd be happy enough with the GF buffs if Tide of Iron remains as a debuff for the whole party

klangeddin · July 2016

abrams121 said:
Aggro management via enforced threat is a form of control.

No, it is not. According to this defition than all forms of aggro management would be a form of control and Paladin tanks could be considered controllers as well. Same goes for sentinel GWFs (to a lesser extent).
If we accepted this definition that the original point that GFs are defender/controllers, while paladins are defender/leaders would be moot as they would actually be defenders/controllers/leaders. But of course, put it that way, it would highlight a crystal clear form of unbalance favouring the latter at the expense of the former...

theguiido said:

klangeddin said:

metalldjt said:

jobsalotofwork said:
So with the changes to GF I'm m thinking op has the better buffs

The gF will have

ITF + mark + ???

Sadly I can't think of anything else so a 44% team bonus plus CA. CA can be acquired from many classes and GWF can also mark so a 36% gain assuming a tact GF - plus ap gain for tact capstone.

OP brings

Bane 30% more damage plus damage debuffs.

Courage which I find is huge for some classes and less so for others.

Wisdom again varies and can increase ap gain because faster encounters.

???

So what am I not taking into consideration?
GF is a Defender/Controller
and paladin is a Defender/Leader

so what is a Leader supposed to do ?
Heal. And there's a dedicated path for that. They can be either Defender OR Leaders. They can't be both (no ****).
The GF is nowhere stated to be a GF a defender/controller. It can only be a defender, there's no path for control.
It can be a defender, in some cases it can also be a striker and controller with some powers. It can be whatever you make the class to be with your build. Nothing like a leader like a Paladin but it's also very unclear on what the future is for the GF. I wonder how they will buff/change the paragon paths and feats to keep up with the OP as I am very concerned what purpose this class has now. Mod 5 all over again.

"It can be whatever you make the class to be with your build" - Nothing further from the truth. The GF is only a dedicated tank that can achieve under particular circumstances (single target fights where tanking is not required or taken over by someone else) high dps (thanks to powers that are being promtply nerfed anyway so it won't happen anymore). It can certainly never be a proper controller. It is -NEVER- a leader (healer). Having some CC does not equal Being a Controller, just like having some self-healing does not equal being a leader. All classes have some CC, so all classes are controllers? Certainly not. The only pure controller in the game is the Oppressor CW, Second comes the non oppressor CW and third the trapper HR, everything else does not even compare in terms of CC and hence cannot be defined controller by any stretch of imagination.

Unknown · July 2016

This content has been removed.

loboguild · July 2016

Granted, I don't know as much about Pallys. But I'd rate GF's buff potential still slightly higher than OP's. ITF is 30% + 5% + Mark 8% + Tide 20%. Plus ITF is AoE vs. Bane single target. OP has great cooldown reduction though.

Overall the classes have moved closer together, which is great.

klangeddin · July 2016

metalldjt said:

klangeddin said:

metalldjt said:

jobsalotofwork said:
So with the changes to GF I'm m thinking op has the better buffs

The gF will have

ITF + mark + ???

Sadly I can't think of anything else so a 44% team bonus plus CA. CA can be acquired from many classes and GWF can also mark so a 36% gain assuming a tact GF - plus ap gain for tact capstone.

OP brings

Bane 30% more damage plus damage debuffs.

Courage which I find is huge for some classes and less so for others.

Wisdom again varies and can increase ap gain because faster encounters.

???

So what am I not taking into consideration?
GF is a Defender/Controller
and paladin is a Defender/Leader

so what is a Leader supposed to do ?
Heal. And there's a dedicated path for that. They can be either Defender OR Leaders. They can't be both (no ****).
The GF is nowhere stated to be a GF a defender/controller. It can only be a defender, there's no path for control.
GF is a controller and it's embed in the class itself
how many classes have the ability to go in and out the fight and control the fight, control their enemies, and have a higher advantage against them ?
Controller
Controllers influence fights by controlling either the field of battle or targets directly. Their role is to ensure threats are minimized or handled efficiently.
All classes have some form of CC, but certain forms are better in certain situations.
GF is one
TR is one
CW is one
HR is one
DC is one

so a paladin, sw and gwf do not have these certain forms that are as good as the classes mentioned above.

so stop complaining man, the class its not underpeforming so stop makin it sound like one that it does.

"how many classes have the ability to go in and out the fight and control the fight, control their enemies, and have a higher advantage against them ? "

Uh, all of them?
And how is that paladins, sws and gwfs do not have those form of CC (heck the GWFs even share some with the GF itself lol), but others do? That's simply plain false. The Paladin has an AoE knockback/prone (in PvE) for christ's sake. "In some situations" (to use your own words) that's better than anything the GF could hope to offer (on the CC end). Or what about Banishment. How does the GF have anything that compare to that in PvE in terms of control?

This has nothing to do with complaining about the class. This is about spreading false information. The GF is not a controller, no more than a CW is a leader or the DC is a defender.

Maybe I should be the one saying "so stop spreading false info man, the class is not overperforming, so stop making it sound like one that it does by giving it roles that they don't have."

By the way, this thread started because of the buff ability of the GF. Someone somehow implied that they should buff less than paladins because GFs are "half" controllers whereas OPs are "half" leaders. Both statements are clearly false as both GFs and Protection OPs are "full" defenders.

Unknown · July 2016

This content has been removed.

klangeddin · July 2016

The changes are not set in stone, and they have shown in the past to backtrack on something that hit the PTS.
Mod 4 test early build was a tragedy for GF (block lasted like 2-3 seconds baseline), the forums were outraged and then they reviewed those changed drastically.
Most of these changes suck, while not particulary tragic, they are entirely pointless (except the ITF one), and what's worse, they even managed to miss completely Knight's Challenge, which is the other one power that is causing trouble (along ITF).

theguiido · July 2016

klangeddin said:
The changes are not set in stone, and they have shown in the past to backtrack on something that hit the PTS.
Mod 4 test early build was a tragedy for GF (block lasted like 2-3 seconds baseline), the forums were outraged and then they reviewed those changed drastically.
Most of these changes suck, while not particulary tragic, they are entirely pointless (except the ITF one), and what's worse, they even managed to miss completely Knight's Challenge, which is the other one power that is causing trouble (along ITF).

Which is something I sometimes forget too lolol. I guess we all have to wait and see what happens, hopefully some of the major things proposed don't happen.

kate · July 2016

@thefabricant @loboguild @jobsalotofwork

OP - Aura Gift
with high item level and base power in overall OP can provide better buffs than GF...

GF buff will now not depend on any stat..... and Knight Captain set is legacy and not available to all.

p.s. aggro management - each class has its pros and cons, but in overall it terrible and in fact may be interrupted by anything in a sec, for e.g. Vow of Enmity may not keep aggro on OP.

tripsofthrymr · July 2016

thefabricant said:
The GF also has the KC set as a BiS buff option, if you counting all buffs available.

My GF has that set, but it has been out of the game for a long time now. I would hardly count it as a factor when considering current class balance.

Buff GF vs OP?

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