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Bring back some of the PVE fun, by doing something unusual.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
For anyone who's been around since open beta/mod 1 you know that every dungeon had what could be deemed as "exploits". Now before this gets insta modded bear with me for a minute.
Some of the "exploits" were things such as using entangle and repel and shard of endless avalanche to knock entire mobs off the side of steps or rails or cliffs in dungeons. Tanks could get into difficult to reach places and taunt mobs to places where they couldn't attack. TRs could perma stealth to surpass mobs to get to bosses. None of these are current but they point to something that I think the devs are overlooking in their "quash the bugs" mentality... Namely: This stuff is fun as hades!
What Devs look at is that these tricks people experiment to learn are getting around the difficulty of the dungeon by surpassing mobs and or mini bosses to get to the end with less time and/or less fights. Some of these tricks were about positioning your entire team and were difficult in and of themselves. Let me give you an insight why:
Most MMO players statistically like a challenge, many are at least a lil above average intelligence (no flaming here please
). Using terrain and wits to "outsmart" the game gives them a kick. They freaking love it! Why do you think so many exploits are found? Because people love the challenge of being the "first" to figure it out and spread their knowledge to friends who can say "man that was clever".
Now, here's what I'm getting at, you can immediately consider this a forum post that condones "exploiting" dungeons. However, you can see what's behind it and actually incorporate it successfully and intentionally into the game by doing a few simple things:
Firstly, dear gawds please stop with the invisiwalls everhwere. You want to completely destroy the "suspension of disbelief" in a game? Make it childproof, put us in a padded room and prod us straight forward to the end of a dungeon. You want to make epic dungeons? Allow us to truly explore, put easter eggs into dungeons beyond one "secret" easily found door. Reward us for trying to push the limits, make terrain accessible and completely usable in fights! Allow us to try and use various skills and imagination to come up with different solutions for mobs/bosses and difficult terrain.
Secondarily, incorporate your own creative ideas that people have to figure out in order to beat a dungeon. For example, Orcus is a straight forward fight. Dodge when in red, nuke when not, tank him face to face. Boring tbh imho. How about making him immune to damage unless you properly position your team on certain spots of a traced symbol on the floor which releases him to move around freely and do more damage but allows you to damage him as well, then place terrain where you can taunt him from or damage him from that he has difficulty reaching but is difficult for you to reach as well. This is literally one small example I came up with in the few second it took to write this. I think it displays the idea. For that matter you could incorporate a puzzle or riddle that one has to figure out each time you fight orcus that rotates through 4 or 8 different variations.
Thirdly, when you find out people are using a specific "exploit" to get to an end dungeon, don't just quash it, examine it. See why it may be fun to attempt and incorporate a difficult version of that. I mean in a true dungeons and dragon style party, you get rewarded for thinking as much as you do for having really nice gear. You would try and let your rogue sneak past mobs to gain an advantage, perhaps he could then drop a portcullis on the super difficult mini boss you are facing but only at his own peril. Wizards could not only use control to keep mobs rooted but look around to see what other structures they could repel them into for physical damage or to keep them safely away from party members. This is why people play dungeons and dragons irl, to use their brains, to use their imaginations. Why not support this in game as well?
I think you'd find overall, that people loved the original dungeons more, not only because of their difficulty (why do you think CWs used to throw the mobs at the Dracolich over top of the door to the outside? Cause they were freaking killing the party
) but because they could "think" their way around the difficulty to overcome the odds. So, while I'm not condoning the actions of "exploiting" for AD or some such, I AM saying why not get a step ahead of other games and think like gamers instead of the Dev Police?
Thanks for your time and consideration.
P.S. As always feel free to discuss, agree, or disagree in the comments. Thanks!
Some of the "exploits" were things such as using entangle and repel and shard of endless avalanche to knock entire mobs off the side of steps or rails or cliffs in dungeons. Tanks could get into difficult to reach places and taunt mobs to places where they couldn't attack. TRs could perma stealth to surpass mobs to get to bosses. None of these are current but they point to something that I think the devs are overlooking in their "quash the bugs" mentality... Namely: This stuff is fun as hades!
What Devs look at is that these tricks people experiment to learn are getting around the difficulty of the dungeon by surpassing mobs and or mini bosses to get to the end with less time and/or less fights. Some of these tricks were about positioning your entire team and were difficult in and of themselves. Let me give you an insight why:
Most MMO players statistically like a challenge, many are at least a lil above average intelligence (no flaming here please
). Using terrain and wits to "outsmart" the game gives them a kick. They freaking love it! Why do you think so many exploits are found? Because people love the challenge of being the "first" to figure it out and spread their knowledge to friends who can say "man that was clever". Now, here's what I'm getting at, you can immediately consider this a forum post that condones "exploiting" dungeons. However, you can see what's behind it and actually incorporate it successfully and intentionally into the game by doing a few simple things:
Firstly, dear gawds please stop with the invisiwalls everhwere. You want to completely destroy the "suspension of disbelief" in a game? Make it childproof, put us in a padded room and prod us straight forward to the end of a dungeon. You want to make epic dungeons? Allow us to truly explore, put easter eggs into dungeons beyond one "secret" easily found door. Reward us for trying to push the limits, make terrain accessible and completely usable in fights! Allow us to try and use various skills and imagination to come up with different solutions for mobs/bosses and difficult terrain.
Secondarily, incorporate your own creative ideas that people have to figure out in order to beat a dungeon. For example, Orcus is a straight forward fight. Dodge when in red, nuke when not, tank him face to face. Boring tbh imho. How about making him immune to damage unless you properly position your team on certain spots of a traced symbol on the floor which releases him to move around freely and do more damage but allows you to damage him as well, then place terrain where you can taunt him from or damage him from that he has difficulty reaching but is difficult for you to reach as well. This is literally one small example I came up with in the few second it took to write this. I think it displays the idea. For that matter you could incorporate a puzzle or riddle that one has to figure out each time you fight orcus that rotates through 4 or 8 different variations.
Thirdly, when you find out people are using a specific "exploit" to get to an end dungeon, don't just quash it, examine it. See why it may be fun to attempt and incorporate a difficult version of that. I mean in a true dungeons and dragon style party, you get rewarded for thinking as much as you do for having really nice gear. You would try and let your rogue sneak past mobs to gain an advantage, perhaps he could then drop a portcullis on the super difficult mini boss you are facing but only at his own peril. Wizards could not only use control to keep mobs rooted but look around to see what other structures they could repel them into for physical damage or to keep them safely away from party members. This is why people play dungeons and dragons irl, to use their brains, to use their imaginations. Why not support this in game as well?
I think you'd find overall, that people loved the original dungeons more, not only because of their difficulty (why do you think CWs used to throw the mobs at the Dracolich over top of the door to the outside? Cause they were freaking killing the party
) but because they could "think" their way around the difficulty to overcome the odds. So, while I'm not condoning the actions of "exploiting" for AD or some such, I AM saying why not get a step ahead of other games and think like gamers instead of the Dev Police?Thanks for your time and consideration.
P.S. As always feel free to discuss, agree, or disagree in the comments. Thanks!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
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"bounce the flaming orbs back at him" or "knock back his rocks to weaken his platform" etc etc ;D
(also my original character was a Sunburst DC who had lots of fun in Pirate King's retreat. blasting everything off edges. ;D)
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Thanks for your reply!
Basing dungeons of skill, all types of players can contribute by following moving patterns, position themselves correctly and such. It's such a simple concept that you wonder why the devs haven't moved towards skill-gated content by now. As the op correctly mentioned there are plenty ideas you can think of that bring brains into the equation.
I guess the issue is still that the typical gamer of Neverwinter drops in for an hour or two per day, does some dailies and runs some dungeons. Neither do they want to delve into strategy guides nor grinding for months to be able to complete them. The devs once said this can be backed up by the data they are gathering.
Ideally this game needs two completely different tiers of dungeons, one to please the casual/D&D crowd and one to please the hardcore/MMO crowd. But then we're talking about insufficient dev time again. So it's always a decision of designing content for 90% of the population or 10%. And then 90% always wins.
TL;DR: Would love skill based content, but don't see it happening based on the game's population and resources.
Thanks for your time
Only thing is that if you add skill stuff to a dungeon, it should be something that made it just a little bit easier. And you should also make it so that tou could punch your way trough with brute force. That would keep the dungeon open both to the hardcore and the casual players.
There should be an alternative track with some heavy mobs in the path where you have to jump the lava in elol.
Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.
The Exterminator - (NW-DLNXF3BGG)
I've played some MMO's in the past that had this in end-game raids in spades. Interesting and intelligently designed boss fights that took hours (or even days) of experimentation until your group figured out a method that worked. Not only that, but there wasn't always just a 1 trick gimmick to win the fight, all the top guilds found their own slight variation of how to beat a specific boss. As time went on more people began adopting one or the other technique, but the first people there had to figure it out by trial and error. They had to think, and experiment, and die.. alot. In the end they would eventually win, and you know how that felt? It was incredible.
Every boss room in a dungeon should be designed for that boss and its mechanics. Not just an empty square room for you to kill a boss in.
Example 1: Grey Wolf Den 1st boss. The boss stands inside a large room surrounded by pillars, give him a charged up aoe that will kill anyone it hits unless each player runs to, and hides behind, one of the pillars. Line of Sight is an amazing tool: use it.
Example 2: Many of the dungeons we delve into are underground, in caves and such. You know whats in caves? Stalactites. Design a boss room with 2 or more openings from which adds stream out of, so many adds that you can barely keep up killing them, therefor you never get time to kill the boss. Above each opening is a stalactite, do enough damage to it and it will fall sealing off the opening and stopping the adds. Give the boss a berserk timer, so that you need to stop the adds and kill the boss within a certain amount of time, if time runs out the boss gains +500% attack speed and +500% damage.
Give each class the ability to feel important, and use their unique skills to overcome a challenging boss encounter. Instead of just 1 big baddie at the end of the dungeon (or partway through) create an encounter similar to the Competing Adventuring party, but where each mini-boss needs to be dealt with differently. Give them enough health so that we truly need to utilize the mechanics to defeat them. Consider the cooldown times on interrupt abilities and design the enemy Cleric's heal spell to cast often enough that you need 2 (or more) people working together to interrupt it. At the same time give the enemy Fighter enough damage that he can't be ignored and has to be tanked by your tank and kept away from your party to prevent them dying to the enemy Fighter's whirlwind ability. Give the enemy Wizard multiple CC abilities that require them to be CC'd themselves, or else they will CC your healer and everyone will die, or he'll CC your tank and the enemy Fighter will run amok and everyone will die, or he'll CC your interuptors and the enemy Cleric will keep healing your primary kill target. The list goes on and on. This would be a perfect place for Geas or Banishment.
I could go on like this all day, just thinking of interesting and intelligently designed boss fight or dungeon aspects to bring a world of different and complex and FUN elements into the game. Unfortunately all the great ideas in the world won't breath life into our monochromatic dungeons without the developer hours to create and implement them. That costs money, so its in the merciless death-grip of the powers that be whether or not they want to create a great game, or pay as little as possible to get a return on investment.
I would hope they could accomplish this with their current team. It's more the effort of the creativity than it is the coding I would think. However, I'm just a gamer who would love to see this game get better. I have no knowledge of what the devs resources are, nor their inclination to listen to their player base. All I can do is offer them ways to improve the gaming environment and cross my fingers.
Thanks for your input.
The very short answer is because it doesn't make anyone any money.
The gaming world is built around what can be sold in a store. That means gear, services and power. Every free game is like this and Neverwinter is sadly no exception. The whole F2P paradigm is that you can make tons of money tricking players out of small sums or forcing trivial payments to keep advancing, convincing them that they can gamble for goods. Neverwinter and every other free game is designed around that concept.
Skill however is free.
If things can be attained through skill alone then there is no way to monetize it. Whats more, while some people will attain those things, there are others who will not be able to and they will be frustrated and angry at the development team for favoring a certain kind of player. So they will be NOT making money AND developing a system that actively causes a percentage of their population to hate their game.
You will never play a game crafted and run for the love of its creation. I say that because here we are in this game and not another. Every game you will play in the coming years will be constructed to part you from your money in some way. Some will be clever about it, some will be interesting or entertaining and some of them will just force payments to continue, but none of them will reward you for anything that comes free like your time or skill.
You might notice that Neverwinter itself have several ways to keep you from using your time, artificial slow downs and stopping blocks, limits and day-long cool downs. That is because your time is free and they want you to have to purchase it from them along with keys and boxes and the like. You are not allowed to achieve on your own.
Certainly there are some people who may offer that they have done fine without spending any money in this game. And there is nothing wrong with that. But they did fine on the desperately slow time scale forced on them and adhered to the gear grind rules of engagement or are forced into excessive methods like having many, many characters prayer-grinding for wards.
I am not saying that it is necessarily wrong. Doubtless there will be a chorus of “they got to make money” coming right up. And perhaps you agree. All that is fine. But the idea that you will ever be allowed to achieve on your own initiative without some monetary quotient attached to it is one gone to the old days of games.
To paraphrase a space elf: There is no try. There is only buy or grind.
What I'm proposing would bring more interest back to the game, therefore it would increase at least the potential for more profit.
Thanks for your time.
What does not come for free is 4k, legendary mount and a good set of bonding stones, so that you can burn through dungeons in five minutes. You don't need these things, but people are willing to pay for it. And it can also be done for 'free' if you are willing to put down the man hours.
Spicing up the dungeon experience would attract more people to the game, and prevent people from quitting out of boredom. As far as I can tell, that would be a good investment, since you most likely would get and keep more costumers, which would lead to more transactions. But then again I'm not a marketing genious, so I might be wrong.
Maybe they are using some kind of genuine psychology. To suppress the players into a meaningless existence, so that they will brainlessly feed the ZEN account with whatever they got. Then mindlessly flame eachother to the brink of madness till nobody dares uttering a word unless it can back it up with cash. How is that for a conspiracy theory? xD
Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.
The Exterminator - (NW-DLNXF3BGG)
Adds spice to the game.
Reminds me of trick jumping in quake - was one of the best parts of the game and 100% unintentional
However, I also wanted to point out that some of the recent content, especially Underdark, attempted to do some of what all you creative folks are suggesting. I think that the direction we are seeing is good, even if some of the implementation is not ideal, and we should try to give concrete feedback based on these recent attempts.
Mechanics like aiming the thoon hulks or big ugly demogorgon friend, madness as a disabling effect, and even orcus with his silly bag of tricks that most people muscle through (portals, balls, or mini-demonic-HE) are examples of mechanics that were intended to introduce variety and favor skill over brute force. Some accomplish this, others not so much, but all of them have their issues.
I think the aiming mechanic is the closest thing we've had so far to a success. In Throne you CAN'T dps or control the hulks or you fail, which is interesting. In Demogorgon (and especially edemo) aiming or missing repeatedly can make or break a run.
That said, there are problems. In throne many people don't understand what to do and what not to do (kill the hulks) which leads to frustration. The mechanics were introduced, but not that well. And knowing which gate to aim at is incredibly unclear (I'm told the squidface points, but maybe I'm too old to catch it).
In edemo, it's still a little too easy to muscle through for a high level party, although a party closer to min ilvl can definitely fail if someone misses a time or two. In normal demo it's often inefficient to aim anywhere except for the door unless you're running mostly with fresh 70s.
TL;DR: Props to devs for recent efforts that try to introduce variety. Let's give feedback using these as a common ground for a better dialog
You can even create neat ways of solving puzzles etc. So ... lets get some real rewards for playing/authoring Foundry quests and then nothing will be boring. ;D
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
I wish they would listen to the community on this one!
Thanks for your reply.
That said, I do think some elements that were added could be potentially interesting. They seemed to me to fall just short of the mark. The illythillich fight, for example, has a cool flip flop mechanic where you end up in spikes. If you time your bubble as a pally right noone gets hurt. If you time your dodge as a dodge class you can avoid the damage. This is a good element, however I think it should be more defined (i.e. you get a 3 second warning that doesn't change time depending on how fast you're wiping the boss) and if you don't dodge or get bubble or sprint you insta die. I think there should be more adds in these fights that you have to off tank. Most bosses went from ungodly amounts of adds to like almost none. It's a nuke fest.
I can understand where you're coming from with this post, I hope that I make clear where I'm coming from as well.
Thanks for your input.
Eh, all rhetorical... for the record I rather wish they would do something to benefit the players too. I don't know if a dance-dance-revolution dungeon is the best idea, but certainly there should be ways to make content interesting and fun beyond copy-pasting the same dungeon with the same content and the same mobs in the same order into three separate quests. (Lookin' at you Spinward Rise). There should indeed be a better way.
Here's hoping they take your suggestions to heart. Stranger things have happened.
And you are very welcome.
If they took a more creative approach to dungeons and to problem solving "bugs" in the game this may aid them in keeping things fresh, interesting, and engaging.
Thanks for your reply.
I usually enjoy some scripted twists every now and then. But I personally won't bother with then to be expected mandatory guides on how to run dungeon xyz and the flames on PuG first visitors, if dungeons become nifty twisty. -- I didn't even make it to normal Demorgogon on at least one character, because "has to show up there at half o'clock" and missed it three times, so that's that. Hmm, that is pretty casual me here, isn't it? And the reason for me to post the comment.
Still, there are some goddies to be had from guides on how to run characters around: promotion by Neverwinter volunteer heros for Cryptic and PWE. Good for all enjoying NWO.
Thanks for your reply.
as to others above, foundry came to my mind.
(foundry is what lured me to (dare) start this game, my first mmo, when it came out.)
it's hard for me to say, why dungeons up to mod 5 felt like much more of an adventure. maybe i'm a bit tired now.
the main attractor were always other players, have fun and adventure together.
and i agree with OP and others in this thread. thank you for your ideas!