Making sense of Masterwork

lukejones77 · February 2016

What am I missing about Masterwork Professions?
My guild can't yet do the quests, but I can now do the profession tasks. Does it make sense to do the tasks????

Using the tailoring example, my first surprise is that there doesn't seem to be any way anywhere to do more than one task at a time (one only spinning wheel).
The next is that it seems, no matter how epic my resources are, I'm staring at a best case of 80% failure any time I do anything.
Working back from cashmere carpet (the end product?)
= ( 3 x cashmere + 3 x jute + 2 x gold wire) - where jute is from a carpet failure, and gold wire ? (1.9 mill in the AH)
= ( 3 x 3 x cashmere yarn + 3 x jute + 2 x gold wire)
= ( 3 x 3 x (2 x cashmere wool + oil vitriol) + (3 x jute) + (2 x gold wire) )
= ( 3 x 3 x (2 x cashmere wool + (green vitriol x 4) + (3 x jute) + (2 x gold wire) )
= 18 x cashmere wool + 36 x green vitriol + 3 x jute + 2 x gold wire

So, this is what it takes, but the thing is:
- There's a *lot* of steps.
- each step has an 80% failure chance, so you repeat the previous steps when you lose the resources.
- Each step must be done one after another, as you can only have one spinning wheel (tailoring), or one alembic (alchemy).
- At best, you can run 2 tasks concurrently (e.g. an alchemy task preparing a tailoring resource - 80% failure).
- Only source I can find for gold wire is 1.9 mill in the AH each, and when you use 2 in a task with 80% failure, get ready to flush 4 mill AD down the toilet - many times!
- I'll consider "jute" to be for free. Should have plenty of them, as it's a by-product of a failed task.

Now clearly I can't see the full picture, but there's something clearly crazy going on here.
For now, I'm still holding onto my starting assumption that whoever created this masterpiece, did something that makes sense, and did it to bring more fun to the game.

Where is the info for this? For some reason, the higher step processes are hidden (what do I make with Cashmere, when I finally get some, or what might I make with samite - and what else will I need when I get there).

I tried going to the Neverwinter wiki sight. It's been awesome in the past, but there are no updates for this mod. Surely this stuff is not too new. Have contributors just given up?

Help!

valwryn · February 2016

That's how it works.

20% Success for the first couple of quests then ya get a new tool to raise it to 40%, unless ya get that F-Hammer to help. I find it easier and faster if ya have one toon for each profession since ya need to share crafted resources with each other and can only do one at a time. The hard part is getting the Guild Marks and then getting the right materials from the nodes. This will take a very long time, unless you're impatient.

*No AD Required*

urabask · February 2016

valwryn said:
That's how it works.

20% Success for the first couple of quests then ya get a new tool to raise it to 40%, unless ya get that F-Hammer to help. I find it easier and faster if ya have one toon for each profession since ya need to share crafted resources with each other and can only do one at a time. The hard part is getting the Guild Marks and then getting the right materials from the nodes. This will take a very long time, unless you're impatient.
*No AD Required*

Aside from influence/shards the only way to get enough marks is going to involve buying things with AD. Most of the best ways to get marks fill up really fast too (e.g. labor).

santralafax · February 2016

We're waiting for GH12 go finish, then starting Market Place 6. So far I have almost 0 knowledge about MasterWorks besides what I see in posts like the OPs. It would be helpful if the devs would publish *something*. Or am I just missing it??

adinosii · February 2016

Masterwork makes no sense whatsoever - that's the sad fact. In most cases the masterwork professions are pretty much pointless, as (for the most part) you cannot make anything better than stuff you can get with less effort and/or at a lower cost elsewhere.

There are two possible exceptions - one is the Jewelcrafting (Rosegold) rings. For some builds and playstyles they are at least as good as the legendary +5 Underdark rings. The other exception is the weapons which would be the best available when you are in a 5-man group where everyone is using them. Fat chance of that ever happening.

Now, if you still want to work on Masterwork, start by getting a Mythic quality Forgehammer of Gond. it will make a HUGE difference in the cost.

Otherwise, just ignore the masterwork for now, and hope that a rework/redesign will be coming one day. The idea is fine - it is just the implementation that sucks.

asterdahl · February 2016

Apologies for bumping an older post but I wanted to make sure this made its way into an appropriate thread and got some visibility. We're aware that it feels like some of the professions don't quite pay off, namely armor-making professions, due to the investment vs. power.

While masterwork professions are intended to be a big long term investment, the equipment was built somewhat conservatively. Based on data we've gathered, we plan to bump the item level of all equipment created via masterwork recipes from 140 to 145. This will affect all existing items, rings included. This change will not impact the item level of stronghold artifact weapons.

It is not necessarily the intent to make crafted equipment that is very difficult to make best in slot, but without a set bonus we feel that the item level bump is needed to make the equipment more competitive. Thank you all for your continued feedback!

kolatmaster · February 2016

@asterdahl

How many stat points, on average, ia this an increase of? Just curious!

gankdalf · February 2016

kolatmaster said:
@asterdahl

How many stat points, on average, ia this an increase of? Just curious!

Yeah same question.

urabask · February 2016

kolatmaster said:
@asterdahl

How many stat points, on average, ia this an increase of? Just curious!

Probably about the same as elemental infusion i.e. still makes it pointlessly expensive compared to DF/LM.

torontodave · February 2016

asterdahl said:
Apologies for bumping an older post but I wanted to make sure this made its way into an appropriate thread and got some visibility. We're aware that it feels like some of the professions don't quite pay off, namely armor-making professions, due to the investment vs. power.

While masterwork professions are intended to be a big long term investment, the equipment was built somewhat conservatively. Based on data we've gathered, we plan to bump the item level of all equipment created via masterwork recipes from 140 to 145. This will affect all existing items, rings included. This change will not impact the item level of stronghold artifact weapons.

It is not necessarily the intent to make crafted equipment that is very difficult to make best in slot, but without a set bonus we feel that the item level bump is needed to make the equipment more competitive. Thank you all for your continued feedback!

while we're on the topic @asterdahl , I've been trying to make 'oil of vitriol' for weeks now using 3x purple tools.. I have a 20% chance of hitting the oil, but i've never hit it once.

prolly 20+ days now of getting 2 green vitriol back, and not a single oil yet. Is it designed to only work with the forgehammer of gond?

loboguild · February 2016

urabask said:
Probably about the same as elemental infusion i.e. still makes it pointlessly expensive compared to DF/LM.

I have to agree here. I can see the upper tier PVP getting to ilvl 145, because those are normally the ones that feel the most need to max out in every possible way, but at least for PVE the Masterwork armor sets are vastly overpriced and not needed. Armor sets have not even been a vital part of the progression since Module 6 because of the lack of decent set bonuses. It doesn't matter whether you're sporting item level 135 or 145 on your armor, the amount of RP you are able to generate however does.

At 2,500 item level the armor set already only contributes 25% of the overall stats and later it's closer to 10%. This game is not build to make such a minor piece of the progression so expensive.

Unknown · February 2016

This content has been removed.

asterdahl · February 2016

kolatmaster said:
@asterdahl

How many stat points, on average, ia this an increase of? Just curious!

To give you an idea, here's the impact that change will have on the cleric's Adamant Restoration Surcoat:
Maximum Hit Points: 21,109 → 23,178
Power: 1,460 → 1,597
Critical Strike: 973 → 1,064
Defense: 982 → 1,032

The increase in power is on par with upgrading drowcraft armor via elemental infusion, which increases item level from 135 to 140. Before that elemental infusion was 2 item levels, so the power increase was significantly smaller.

Unknown · February 2016

This content has been removed.

santralafax · February 2016

defiantone99 said:
I think Drow PVP sets like the ones on preview in Mod 5 but with Lionsmane stats should be added to the game (this is the perfect module for it) so those of us who do not want to do SH PVP can get BIS PVP gear. It could require Twisted Ichor, Glory and Seals of Triumph. MW gear is pretty out-of-reach for most players.

+500 That might draw me back to PVP. Though I don't think PVP will be more popular until a re-work is done. The population there is getting very thin. It will be 2 modules out since Strongholds, time for a new PVP set to make an entrance.

lukejones77 · February 2016

Well, with my standard terrible RNG experience, I have been spending days burning time and resources, getting nowhere with the built-in 80% failure rate.
Enough for me. Done with the Masterwork activity that that is too far away from "fun game"

This is a sad pattern.
My point to running eDemo was to try for a legendary ring drop. After some 400+ wins with silver/gold, I've just wasted my time. I tried. I really, really did. I acknowledge that I get some salvage, but I'd much rather run real dungeons to get that. This eDemo design tears squishies apart in a race-against-time that makes it "ok" to leave team mates lying on the ground to die - for the "greater good". Please tell me that this is not not the new design style.

I know that I'm now veering off-topic as the OP, but I guess it's the frustration of finding out that there is no good answer to "making sense of masterwork", and realizing how badly I was hoping to find some fun with it.

This was *such* an awesome game, but it's been squeezed so badly of late. I get that, even with free-to-play, a workable commercial model is vital. I used to buy Zen I didn't need after releases, just because I was happy to get new stuff and support the game. I threw lotsa real money at VIP for convenience factors, just to support the game (not wanting a game advantage). Personally, I thought trade bar coalescents were way too cheap, and didn't buy VIP as a bean counting reason for VIP.

Game Owners (not fair to target Devs): It's a *game*. It must be *fun*. This RNG pattern of opening lockboxes, trying for eDemo legendary rings, doing masterwork professions, Is.Not.Fun. We are staring at planned, architected and unavoidable massive failure for our time, effort, and perhaps money. After 400+ failures for a legendary eDemo ring drop, I have accumulated zero progress for that, and have exactly the same chance in the next run as the guy next to me showing up for the very first time.

Game Owners: Please, if you decide that long-term players are an important part of your vital commercial model behind free-to-play, create an end-game for Neverwinter that is *fun*.
Again, this game was so good, and I believe that it can be again. Over half my guild believes that a single revamped Castle Never won't be enough. Personally, I just haven't seen the evidence that an end-game for long-term players has been properly explored, and that there is still hope.

Final Aside: Before starting this response, I was looking at the Youtube insert on the Cryptic web page for the news item "Neverwinter: The Maze Engine Coming March 15!". As is the wont of youtube inserts, it eventually displayed for me an option to click on a related link for "The Sad Truth About What NeverWinter Really is About".
I checked it out. I sorta get this guy. I think he's too conspiratorial, too harsh, and too unappreciative of the challenges in controlling the evolution of a game like this, but, he's clearly frustrated with what used to be a *fun* game for him. Now, he denigrates the game, but the clear progression of how he landed in such a state just may be useful to understanding what needs to be considered in the game's evolution.

Personally, I think that great strides have been taken with things that were massive issues (like stability, *truly* awful lag, and bugs). I'll go "true believer", and give more time for a result of "game must be fun - for endgame players". I'll warn that a short term fix with re-introduction of a reworked Castle Never won't be enough, but there's maybe enough time to build quickly on that. There's a lot of leavers that will be checking back in over time. They do.

Good luck to us all!

Mod edited out references to other MMOs.

adinosii · February 2016

asterdahl said:
It is not necessarily the intent to make crafted equipment that is very difficult to make best in slot, but without a set bonus we feel that the item level bump is needed to make the equipment more competitive. Thank you all for your continued feedback!

The changes you describe might actually make masterwork worthwhile. As I complained earlier, the current issue is that masterwork does not allow you to create anything better than items which can be obtained at a lower cost and/or with less effort elsewhere.

I do, however, have a suspicion that it will primarily be some people in high-end PvP guilds that will be interested in this. For PvE players like myself, it is still somewhat pointless to invest massive effort into something that does not really give a real benefit. You can get the drowcraft set with hardly any effort at all, and for most PvE players, that's all they need.

Still, this is a step in the right direction. Now, if you wanted to make masterwork really popular, allow people to craft something like purple mount insignia.

I do plan to get masterwork crafting skills eventually though - my guild is not quite there yet - but for now I'm just working on getting my last few crafting skills up to level 25.

matiagronx · February 2016

These armor pieces will cost over 1mil each, best case scenario. Maybe less after 6 months from now, when they will be worthless obviously. There is a huge flaw in this Masterwork design, the rewards doesnt woth the MILLIONS invested. Why cant someone from you guys acknowledges this? After so many months u discovered that armors are a bit useless and u give them a 3 lvl boost which makes them +100 stats better than elemental...rly? Even with 1000+ stats they still would be worthless to 99% of the people who could buy them. Who makes these decisions? Can someone come front and ask for advice as clearly noone actually knows what to do.

throsbi · March 2016

If you look at it from a cash shop sells stand point, I dont think the design is to flawed. Rework the cost in how much someone would spend to obtain these items. I think that may have more to play in the design process for masterwork than you realize.

feanor70118 · March 2016

I don't mind masterwork taking so long; the resulting gear should be a well-thought-out, in terms of stat allocation, alternative to other BiS gear.. The problem is the 20% success rate. This is one of many, many examples of pure cluelessness (or possibly just laziness) on the part of the devs. The fact is, the real enemy in almost all aspects of NWO is the RNG. That is just plain boring and frustrating for players. Effort should be rewarded. Time spent should be rewarded. No one enjoys this endless bait and switch.

bankatushenki · May 2016

I could understand 35% chance for final quest item (with gond) if there was really good stuff, but those 145 lvl items doesnt worth it for sure. Best what devs can do is make 0% asset that given at the end of 1st quest of every profession - blue quality (at least). That will be 45% (60 with gond). That can be called fare.

mistermob · May 2016

What MMO you mentioned here. Is so good that its forbidden to say its name?(off topic, but forbidden fruit is interesting)

lukejones77 said:
Well, with my standard terrible RNG experience, I have been spending days burning time and resources, getting nowhere with the built-in 80% failure rate.
Enough for me. Done with the Masterwork activity that that is too far away from "fun game"

This is a sad pattern.
My point to running eDemo was to try for a legendary ring drop. After some 400+ wins with silver/gold, I've just wasted my time. I tried. I really, really did. I acknowledge that I get some salvage, but I'd much rather run real dungeons to get that. This eDemo design tears squishies apart in a race-against-time that makes it "ok" to leave team mates lying on the ground to die - for the "greater good". Please tell me that this is not not the new design style.

I know that I'm now veering off-topic as the OP, but I guess it's the frustration of finding out that there is no good answer to "making sense of masterwork", and realizing how badly I was hoping to find some fun with it.

This was *such* an awesome game, but it's been squeezed so badly of late. I get that, even with free-to-play, a workable commercial model is vital. I used to buy Zen I didn't need after releases, just because I was happy to get new stuff and support the game. I threw lotsa real money at VIP for convenience factors, just to support the game (not wanting a game advantage). Personally, I thought trade bar coalescents were way too cheap, and didn't buy VIP as a bean counting reason for VIP.

Game Owners (not fair to target Devs): It's a *game*. It must be *fun*. This RNG pattern of opening lockboxes, trying for eDemo legendary rings, doing masterwork professions, Is.Not.Fun. We are staring at planned, architected and unavoidable massive failure for our time, effort, and perhaps money. After 400+ failures for a legendary eDemo ring drop, I have accumulated zero progress for that, and have exactly the same chance in the next run as the guy next to me showing up for the very first time.

Game Owners: Please, if you decide that long-term players are an important part of your vital commercial model behind free-to-play, create an end-game for Neverwinter that is *fun*.
Again, this game was so good, and I believe that it can be again. Over half my guild believes that a single revamped Castle Never won't be enough. Personally, I just haven't seen the evidence that an end-game for long-term players has been properly explored, and that there is still hope.

Final Aside: Before starting this response, I was looking at the Youtube insert on the Cryptic web page for the news item "Neverwinter: The Maze Engine Coming March 15!". As is the wont of youtube inserts, it eventually displayed for me an option to click on a related link for "The Sad Truth About What NeverWinter Really is About".
I checked it out. I sorta get this guy. I think he's too conspiratorial, too harsh, and too unappreciative of the challenges in controlling the evolution of a game like this, but, he's clearly frustrated with what used to be a *fun* game for him. Now, he denigrates the game, but the clear progression of how he landed in such a state just may be useful to understanding what needs to be considered in the game's evolution.

Personally, I think that great strides have been taken with things that were massive issues (like stability, *truly* awful lag, and bugs). I'll go "true believer", and give more time for a result of "game must be fun - for endgame players". I'll warn that a short term fix with re-introduction of a reworked Castle Never won't be enough, but there's maybe enough time to build quickly on that. There's a lot of leavers that will be checking back in over time. They do.

Good luck to us all!

Mod edited out references to other MMOs.

dsn1118 · May 2016

I liked how everyone can get any gear with enough farming/dungeon running/PVP even how much the game sucks and how bad the economy is but masterwork gear will ruin it if you plan to keep pushing this nonsense to us.

I also wonder how this new professions counts as rewarding the players who play the game.I know people invest insane amounts AD and they have to right to use/make/sell that gear.I blame the developers for professions since profession farmers can earn 500k-1m by crafting one piece of gear.It is literally showing middle finger to players who farm dungeons/skirmishes for measly AD

valynstarfire · May 2016

@asterdahl

You want to make it more worth the investment, follow this reasoning. Common tools for every other profession add an 8% chance to crafting success. While it isn't much, +8% follows the pattern. It still means a max of 28% chance (no forgehammer) to 43% chance (with mythic forgehammer). The 8% will not completely infringe on those who have already mastered the Masterwork Professions.

Other things that would be nice, increase the rewards of the Tier 2 result (ie the failure).

Also, there are LOTS of epic level tools out there now. What about giving us a way to turn them into Legendary, but not as good as the Forgehammer's Legendary tool (which would make it possible to have 100% tier 3 result). Have the regular tools at legendary quality only give 45% chance. Thus a standard profession tier 3 chance would max out at 80% (no forgehammer) to 95% chance (with mythic forgehammer). As I understand it, you get a Masterwork Profession purple tool with a +40% when you complete the second set of tasks, so the above and forementioned results with the epic MW tool and 3 legendary tools would give 75% to 90% chance for Masterwork tier3 results.

These are meant to be reasonable ideas for improvements to professions and masterwork professions.

Unknown · May 2016

This content has been removed.

Making sense of Masterwork

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