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PVP Class balance and gear issues.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
This mod and last have introduced some new gear, enchants, and mechanics, I will try to address here what issues I feel are most necessary to be addressed. Where to begin? Firstly the ambush rings, drains, and now shadowclad enchantments make PVP stupid.
Perma stealth is annoying enough as a TR mechanic. So instead of fixing what people find annoying about TRs, you give stealth to everyone? This was just... I don't know what to say here to keep it constructive except that this was definitely NOT the optimal solution. Ambush Rings and now Shadoclad give TR stealth to other classes, only better. Please, PLEASE fix this guys!
Drains are equally stupid. I would love to take the devs into a round of PVP and allow them to see the end result. If you have drains the other players who don't have wards simply stand there and watch you kill them. No stamina, no dailies, they are target dummies at that point. Way to make a team feel like PVP is the most useless endeavor in the game. If you combine these drains with ambush and shadowclad you literally are a PUG gawd. My guild has talked about making a youtube video with everyone wearing all this stuff that we collected but haven't been using and showing the devs and players alike how absolutely ridiculous PVP is when these elements are used by everyone.
Now the second and equally important issue is class balance.
GF's are able to one rotation any class. Their burst damage is completely insane. A GWF in full unstoppable will die to a GF who used a daily, ITF, Bull charge and anvil. Double marks that IV can achieve only make the damage more ludicrous. The problem is that in order to compensate for slow rotations and the necessity to keep up block (so you can't really at will someone unless you've already stunned them) they have to give high damage to the class in hopes it can burst targets down, but this is overkill guys.
GWF's are able to build massive stacks of damage with all the various multipliers and damage stacks and if they have full stacks can one rotate many classes as well. They have very little in the way of CC unlike every other class at this point because in order to have damage they must use daggers, in order to finish they must use IBS which gives them 1 encounter to play with. Even if they use FLS or Takedown most classes have so much CC resist you can't line up an IBS fast enough.
TR's are able to incorporate first strike with SE to do super high damage, especially to classes that have no dodge mechanic (i.e. GWF, SW, Pally). Sabo's can hit as high as 120-130k and higher with ITF buff. Executioner can hit 150 and higher with SE and first strike. However the reason TRs build this way and with perma stealth is because they've been locked in to this by class issues. Most encounters are either too easily dodge-able or don't deal any real damage so they have to rely on either SEing you or Courage breaker + SB to moot you out and damage you down.
CW's are unable to build chill stacks against elven, or against GF (raises shield and they fall off) or against GWF much (goes unstoppable and they go away), so that leaves them gimped in the Damage department in PVP. The main issue is that they either need more control (they can repel annoyingly fast with spell twisting) or more burst damage. As it stands they are primarily an annoyance in that they can keep you off a node most of the time if they time their repels fast enough. CC resist makes a lot of their abilities less CC than other classes (i.e. TR Smokebomb or HR continous roots and dazes). Unless they go valindra's set and oppressor. Oppressor has very little damage associated with it so it becomes limited. Chill stacks are a must for any CW build. To make them necessary and then gimp the ability to gain them is not a prudent decision.
HR's have very little damage and entirely too much CC, especially against non elven wearers. If you're wearing negation gawd help you if a good HR get's a bead on you. He may not kill you quickly but he'll completely lock you down so someone else can or he can slowly whittle you down. There needs to be less CC by HR's and more damage. Also, a ton of HR's would really appreciate viability being reintroduced into melee HR, at the moment you get wrecked with this build, not enough damage and other classes throwdown way too much damage if you can't mitigate it with CC and distance.
SW's are a in an interesting position. They are one of the few classes able to cause damage loops on paladins aura's and kill them. So they have an interesting Niche in PVP groups. They can be very tanky because of the lifesteal associated with the class and its passives. However PVP SW's are completely reliant on building those stacks and have very little burst damage, they are also susceptible to insta death if they don't have their soulsparks up (which fall off immediately following combat end). The biggest problem right now is that DoTs don't win against end game players as much as burst damage. Like most classes SW is particularly susceptible to death by GF or TR and to a lesser degree GWF. GF and TR have not only high damage at the moment but huge CC as well. Courage breaker, smokebomb, these are some of the strongest CC in the game. Bull charge, crescendo, anything that leaves you prone is OP in a game where prones were mostly done away with for this reason. My suggestion for the SW is add to their curse that it causes the target to experience healing depression so that the DoT becomes more effective (i.e. less self heals from wheel, insignias, pots, boons) and gives them utility as well as a strong debuffer. This would minimally affect PVE while still allowing the SW to be a true scourge in PVP.
DC's are in a pretty good spot imho. They are able to survive 1v1 versus most classes, it takes a lot of effort for a GF to try and kill a DC. A good DC can pretty much moot out any class 1v1 and I think this is fitting. If you can't kill in PVP then you should be a tank capable of surviving against another player 1v1 pretty much indefinitely. The arguable issue with DC's is the AP gain that they give. The boon that was causing infinite gain has been fixed, the passive that was causing infinite gain was fixed in a prior mod but the AP gain they give is still really good. Some people consider this a bug, as far as I have read the devs were aware this feat worked this way they just didn't intend for boons and passives to work in synergy with it. I'm not so familiar with DPS DC's but it seems like they could use a buff. They are similar to the SW in that Damage over time does not win 1v1's anymore. Burst damage is so severe and self healing is so prevalent that targets are either burst down, focused, or they are just a fixture on the node.
Palladin ... the bane of PVP. So here's the rub. Binding oath + bubble make them nigh unkillable. If you stack recovery or if you use aura's that cause damage you are able to perma bubble essentially mooting out all damage on a node. The only threat is if you use aura of courage/vengeance and you get a damage loop from SW's or you get bugged by certain abilities of other classes. Paladins can also put down a lot of DPS/Control with burning light. Nine ticks + of stun and damage, when it crits with high power/arm pen + lostmauth set it can really put a hurt on a node because players can't cast or dodge effectively while it's occuring. If you build for fast cooldowns you can chain this ability for even more effectiveness. Pally needs a big rework for PVP. The daily Divine protector is too good and lasts too long making all damage on a node completely moot. A pally can survive 5 v 1 as well if he is build to do so. This is also silly. The feat "echoes of light" is still multi proccing causing cooldowns to be shortened by most any attacks against you because of aura and boon procs. Pallies should either be immortal, be able to kill, or be like a DC but not all three at once.
This is an overview of PVP as I see it at the moment. I'd love to see some of these issues resolved and classes rounded out towards balance while making for a viability of different builds within each class. Thanks for taking the time to read this, feel free to comment if you feel I've left something out or haven't addressed something properly. Thanks for your time.
Perma stealth is annoying enough as a TR mechanic. So instead of fixing what people find annoying about TRs, you give stealth to everyone? This was just... I don't know what to say here to keep it constructive except that this was definitely NOT the optimal solution. Ambush Rings and now Shadoclad give TR stealth to other classes, only better. Please, PLEASE fix this guys!
Drains are equally stupid. I would love to take the devs into a round of PVP and allow them to see the end result. If you have drains the other players who don't have wards simply stand there and watch you kill them. No stamina, no dailies, they are target dummies at that point. Way to make a team feel like PVP is the most useless endeavor in the game. If you combine these drains with ambush and shadowclad you literally are a PUG gawd. My guild has talked about making a youtube video with everyone wearing all this stuff that we collected but haven't been using and showing the devs and players alike how absolutely ridiculous PVP is when these elements are used by everyone.
Now the second and equally important issue is class balance.
GF's are able to one rotation any class. Their burst damage is completely insane. A GWF in full unstoppable will die to a GF who used a daily, ITF, Bull charge and anvil. Double marks that IV can achieve only make the damage more ludicrous. The problem is that in order to compensate for slow rotations and the necessity to keep up block (so you can't really at will someone unless you've already stunned them) they have to give high damage to the class in hopes it can burst targets down, but this is overkill guys.
GWF's are able to build massive stacks of damage with all the various multipliers and damage stacks and if they have full stacks can one rotate many classes as well. They have very little in the way of CC unlike every other class at this point because in order to have damage they must use daggers, in order to finish they must use IBS which gives them 1 encounter to play with. Even if they use FLS or Takedown most classes have so much CC resist you can't line up an IBS fast enough.
TR's are able to incorporate first strike with SE to do super high damage, especially to classes that have no dodge mechanic (i.e. GWF, SW, Pally). Sabo's can hit as high as 120-130k and higher with ITF buff. Executioner can hit 150 and higher with SE and first strike. However the reason TRs build this way and with perma stealth is because they've been locked in to this by class issues. Most encounters are either too easily dodge-able or don't deal any real damage so they have to rely on either SEing you or Courage breaker + SB to moot you out and damage you down.
CW's are unable to build chill stacks against elven, or against GF (raises shield and they fall off) or against GWF much (goes unstoppable and they go away), so that leaves them gimped in the Damage department in PVP. The main issue is that they either need more control (they can repel annoyingly fast with spell twisting) or more burst damage. As it stands they are primarily an annoyance in that they can keep you off a node most of the time if they time their repels fast enough. CC resist makes a lot of their abilities less CC than other classes (i.e. TR Smokebomb or HR continous roots and dazes). Unless they go valindra's set and oppressor. Oppressor has very little damage associated with it so it becomes limited. Chill stacks are a must for any CW build. To make them necessary and then gimp the ability to gain them is not a prudent decision.
HR's have very little damage and entirely too much CC, especially against non elven wearers. If you're wearing negation gawd help you if a good HR get's a bead on you. He may not kill you quickly but he'll completely lock you down so someone else can or he can slowly whittle you down. There needs to be less CC by HR's and more damage. Also, a ton of HR's would really appreciate viability being reintroduced into melee HR, at the moment you get wrecked with this build, not enough damage and other classes throwdown way too much damage if you can't mitigate it with CC and distance.
SW's are a in an interesting position. They are one of the few classes able to cause damage loops on paladins aura's and kill them. So they have an interesting Niche in PVP groups. They can be very tanky because of the lifesteal associated with the class and its passives. However PVP SW's are completely reliant on building those stacks and have very little burst damage, they are also susceptible to insta death if they don't have their soulsparks up (which fall off immediately following combat end). The biggest problem right now is that DoTs don't win against end game players as much as burst damage. Like most classes SW is particularly susceptible to death by GF or TR and to a lesser degree GWF. GF and TR have not only high damage at the moment but huge CC as well. Courage breaker, smokebomb, these are some of the strongest CC in the game. Bull charge, crescendo, anything that leaves you prone is OP in a game where prones were mostly done away with for this reason. My suggestion for the SW is add to their curse that it causes the target to experience healing depression so that the DoT becomes more effective (i.e. less self heals from wheel, insignias, pots, boons) and gives them utility as well as a strong debuffer. This would minimally affect PVE while still allowing the SW to be a true scourge in PVP.
DC's are in a pretty good spot imho. They are able to survive 1v1 versus most classes, it takes a lot of effort for a GF to try and kill a DC. A good DC can pretty much moot out any class 1v1 and I think this is fitting. If you can't kill in PVP then you should be a tank capable of surviving against another player 1v1 pretty much indefinitely. The arguable issue with DC's is the AP gain that they give. The boon that was causing infinite gain has been fixed, the passive that was causing infinite gain was fixed in a prior mod but the AP gain they give is still really good. Some people consider this a bug, as far as I have read the devs were aware this feat worked this way they just didn't intend for boons and passives to work in synergy with it. I'm not so familiar with DPS DC's but it seems like they could use a buff. They are similar to the SW in that Damage over time does not win 1v1's anymore. Burst damage is so severe and self healing is so prevalent that targets are either burst down, focused, or they are just a fixture on the node.
Palladin ... the bane of PVP. So here's the rub. Binding oath + bubble make them nigh unkillable. If you stack recovery or if you use aura's that cause damage you are able to perma bubble essentially mooting out all damage on a node. The only threat is if you use aura of courage/vengeance and you get a damage loop from SW's or you get bugged by certain abilities of other classes. Paladins can also put down a lot of DPS/Control with burning light. Nine ticks + of stun and damage, when it crits with high power/arm pen + lostmauth set it can really put a hurt on a node because players can't cast or dodge effectively while it's occuring. If you build for fast cooldowns you can chain this ability for even more effectiveness. Pally needs a big rework for PVP. The daily Divine protector is too good and lasts too long making all damage on a node completely moot. A pally can survive 5 v 1 as well if he is build to do so. This is also silly. The feat "echoes of light" is still multi proccing causing cooldowns to be shortened by most any attacks against you because of aura and boon procs. Pallies should either be immortal, be able to kill, or be like a DC but not all three at once.
This is an overview of PVP as I see it at the moment. I'd love to see some of these issues resolved and classes rounded out towards balance while making for a viability of different builds within each class. Thanks for taking the time to read this, feel free to comment if you feel I've left something out or haven't addressed something properly. Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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Comments
keep going.
I wish you much" tenacity" both in game and in waiting for impossible changes xD , i lost it long time ago and now i am enjoying new game d(^.^)b
Grettings from afterlife
I have the following suggestion: combine shadowclad, ambush rings and drains into a set, which has the bonus smth like "Once a minute you get Major Retardation buff. Major Retardation buff has 25% chance to proc Silent Death on your last attacked target. Target, affected by Silent Death has 50% chance to take 50% of his HP as piercing damage. If target is not dead, it procs 40' AoE... etc"
The main issue I find with the mounts is the legendary mounts. Like who can afford 20 mil AD + for a single mount except end game players sitting on stacks of AD. It's a bigger class divide. It's been estimated that you'd have to open in the vicinity of 2k lockboxes to get one for sure. RNG may be in your favor and daily someone gets one but most of those who wind up with that stuff are turning their hordes of ad into zen, buying keys, opening boxes, and reselling contents for more.
These mounts need to be made affordable, and 12 Mil ad to 30 mil ad is not affordable for all but the in game 1%ers.
The mounts granting stats I'm ok with. Most anyone can get a purple mount, and many of the blue mounts which allow for the insignia bonuses are very affordable.
I don't have any problems with the feytouched, I wish they would bring the others up to its level. Cooldowns on procs of weapon enchantments are silly imho. It's impossible to try and time using them most effectively. All weapon enchants should have 100% uptime like feytouched.
Lifesteal + endless is just the new, more RNG based, regeneration. I don't have problems with it either. Sometimes it procs when you need it to, a lot of times it doesn't. I prefer regen, it was much easier to calculate effectiveness.
lostmauth set is obtainable by everyone and all classes benefit from crit. Some classes just benefit too much, those that build damage stacks (i.e. GWF, GF, and to a lesser degree TR). Damage bonuses should not affect Lostmauth set, this is my primary beef with this set. If I was going to say anything about gear sets it would be to bring other sets up to be competitive.
The things I concern myself with are broken mechanics in gear and classes that is unbalancing. I.E. classes with damage that is light years beyond other classes or classes whose self healing makes them immortal against multiple targets. Gear that causes imbalance by mechanics i.e. rings that benefit all classes but strongest classes get the most out of them, or rings that steal one classes abilities and give it to another, lastly drains cause issues because not only can not everyone get them, or the wards, but they turn you into an immobile target who can't even fight back at all.
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for your reply
I just started a poll a bit ago about placing tenacity equal to the lionsmane set on the character sheet instead of the actual gear. This would mean the only place to get extra tenacity would be from the rings or a set bonus like the lionsmane set bonus. Further closing the tenacity gap between pugs and PVPers.
you should not engage a clandestine race on an ape car vs someone with a lambo. Just consider gear+skill the new elo and balance matchmaking around that. Its mostly gear, i agree with it, but everyone can kill crumb
Like what you're asking for is a completely level playing field. We all go into PVP with exactly the same stats and gear and play with only skill. I get it, this is actually what appeals to me, but here's the HUUUUGE rub. I and many other's like me spent gawdawful amounts of time both in game and out trying to figure out how to min max our gear, enchants, economy etc. Now if they come in and say.. "hey guys, all that hard work, all those hours of dailies and SH encounters, and dragon runs, and RP weekends, and collecting resources from guild maps, and building professions up to make mastercraft gear... yeah we're going to make it all useless"... the immediate exodus of the game would be massive.
If they had done this originally and kept PVP completely free of gear dependency then it would never have been an issue. But at this stage in the game they're already treading on thin ice.... something of this magnitude would cause a complete collapse.
So while I would love to see a complete limitation to say only the gear with no enchants or extraneous boons or other unobtainable power it's, I think, unreasonable to ask for it.
What I try to do instead is pick my battles. Like tenacity, which is huge, bigger than most people realize. Things like drains, which make even a fairly decently geared/skilled pug become a beating dummy. Things like ambush rings which turn one rotation GF's into stealthy one hit wonders on pugs. Things like Shadowclad enchants which make an already difficult target completely untargetable and immortal. These are the battles I chose, those that still can be fixed.
This game is setup to create gear competition, to some degree, without it coal and pres wards would never sell, mounts as well ( a new addition to the power scheme to sell more mounts), keys would never sell ( in order to cross your fingers for the HIGHLY unlikely chance you get a legendary mount), SH packs would never sell (you don't need SH boons to complete PVE tbh). So it is actually PVP and the competition that comes from it that primarily drives the game. If people didn't care about gear then the game would die from lack of cashflow.
All this said, I do the best to argue for what is attainable and as close to level ground as I think feasible within the economic framework of the game.
On your second point, if the game was really balanced I agree with you but moving forward, as I stated in my discussion, this would now kill what's left of the game. You are misunderstanding what I said.
Most simply, if you make people work really hard for something because it's a really, really strong mechanic and they achieve it only to have it snatched from their hands it's called bait and switch. If the devs try to pull a TR tactic that strong, this late in the economic schema it will collapse. I know where you're coming from here but there is point of no return when an economic model has taken hold, and brother we passed that event horizon mods ago.
This is one possible solution. However, the very way you phrase "equalize" means that you think that all classes should be completely equal in PVP. That's simply not going to happen for a multitude of reasons. The model they have set up pushes competition for gear. If you remove that competition for gear/boons/mounts then the economic model falls apart. What I'm asking for is a way to close the gap until the gains from that gear/power competition are more minimal. They should still offer a benefit to those who worked so hard to achieve them but it should be within limits. i.e. if I have a full lionsmane set, tenacity rings, 8k power/arm pen, and 8k defense or 30k HP then I'm vastly outgearing someone in PVE non tenacity gear with rank 2 boons and no tenacity rings.
I don't think you can attain perfect equivalence in PVP under the current paradigm, but I do think with potential solutions like the one aforementioned you can shrink the gear canyon to a gear gap and let skill play a more predominant role.
@badbotlimit @asterdahl @goatshark @graalx3 @rgutscheradev @panderus and anyone I missed.
edit: pvp can be fun aND require skill aND have a sliding scale for those willing to invest time/money.
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
you can go and point this specific equip or that specific boon, but in my opnion the game got out of hand.
Castle never last boss Orcrus can be killed in 10 sec by an average group.
with all the boons, feats, equip and bonus combinatioins the damage output is not proportional to the game PVE or PVP.
to fix PVP they have to fix all around, i find it hard to belive that "cowardice ring disturbing the natural balance of the game"
* fix PVP campaign. suppurt clas can't do triple / double kills and the rewards are bad. allmost no one can complete it now.
they need to change it to partcipation, achieve diffrent PVP set, donate glory etc.
the rewards should be appealing to all, something like +10% mount speed for reaching 10 points, +10% run speed for reaching 20 points... so players will want to complete PVP campaign. ALL PLAYERS
* reduce damage by least 50% to high level (i am aware that new players have very low damage and they can't complete solo daily contenet, so the have to be creative with that)
* reduce AP gain by 80% at least. daily should not be spammed, it should be hard to get and used when needed only
* balance the gear and boons, it doenst make sense that guilds get 8000 power + 8000 def. its more then what average player will get from all his equip and enchants together
* PVP set should not make someone imortal comapre to new player. it should put him on better place but not to the point a new player can't even go down the ramp