Dread vs Vorpal Enchantment (preliminary ACT results)

sweatapodimas · March 2016

*Originally posted this in a Dread Enchantment discussion on the general forums*

So I ran a more ACT experiments with our guild combat dummies, three were affected.

Description of ACT runs so far,

Two Conditions and 3 enchantment "states":

Full AoE with at-wills/encounters/dailies for 10 min and I tried to stay consistent by alternating chilling cloud with a quick storm pillar: CoI(tab)/ST/Dis/IT, CC/SP at-wills

Single target loadout, encounters only for 5 min each, very easy to keep up and very consistent castings: CoI(tab)/IR/Dis/RoE

Enchantments: Transcendent Dread, Transcendent Vorpal, and No Echantment

Image files:

Dread Full AoE: [IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/25u0g3s.png[/IMG]

Dread Single target: [IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/30dklk0.png[/IMG]

Vorp Full AoE: [IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/28uixc9.png[/IMG]

Vorp Single target: [IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/33es8cp.png[/IMG]

No Enchant Full AoE: [IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/2mg9pw6.png[/IMG]

No Enchant target: [IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/34he845.png[/IMG]

Summary:

Dread enchantment seemed to slightly beat vorpal 50 mil to 47 mil total, although I would say that's within the margin of error for my castings.

Single target loadout showed the same oddly enough.

One odd thing (I mentioned b4) is that the atwills stack a terror-like icon on the target and any damage keeps the stacks at around 3 or 4.

*note: the image pages are a little glitchy and may need reloading.

zachisrising · March 2016

What about feytouch for PvP?

sweatapodimas · March 2016

zachisrising said:
What about feytouch for PvP?

I would think Feytouched would always be better for CW due to Tenacity and the fact that it debuffs opponent damage. I'm testing feytouched next.

I think some others will be testing this enchantment in the near future also.

zachisrising · March 2016

SW should benefit the most since it has necrotic damage

thefabricant · March 2016

I think the main thing to take away from this is that dread is working on the elol set. When I tested it, I got much more disappointing results, but I am starting to think it was because my character kills all 4 dummies so its rather hard to check dps etc because dps in such a test is limited to opponent life,

I also think results will change a lot if you factor in party buffs, because the dread enchantment's hit for 25% of weapon damage isn't effected by buffs and at the moment in that image is making up 5% of your dps, With buffs, it will drop to less than 1%. That is the terror icon you are seeing, btw. Also, I managed to get that to stack up to 12 times.

The enchant would also be a lot better if the 40% defense reduction translated into a 4% debuff as well, but then there would be 8% effectiveness and not 4% effectiveness.

When I can get the trans dread back again from a friend, I will retest with a lower weapon damage weapon, so I am unable to kill dummies.

sweatapodimas · March 2016

thefabricant said:
I think the main thing to take away from this is that dread is working on the elol set. When I tested it, I got much more disappointing results, but I am starting to think it was because my character kills all 4 dummies so its rather hard to check dps etc because dps in such a test is limited to opponent life,

I also think results will change a lot if you factor in party buffs, because the dread enchantment's hit for 25% of weapon damage isn't effected by buffs and at the moment in that image is making up 5% of your dps, With buffs, it will drop to less than 1%. That is the terror icon you are seeing, btw. Also, I managed to get that to stack up to 12 times.

The enchant would also be a lot better if the 40% defense reduction translated into a 4% debuff as well, but then there would be 8% effectiveness and not 4% effectiveness.

When I can get the trans dread back again from a friend, I will retest with a lower weapon damage weapon, so I am unable to kill dummies.

I thought they fixed the "flying and dying" dummies?!

What do they look like when they die? Fade away and back in?

flyingleon · March 2016

Thank you for doing this. I could not explain why the damages of elol set are so close with both enchantments. Do you know what happened there?

Edit: so elol damage with dread set triggered by encounters +75% crit severity but at will and daily not?

thefabricant · March 2016

sweatapodimas said:

thefabricant said:
I think the main thing to take away from this is that dread is working on the elol set. When I tested it, I got much more disappointing results, but I am starting to think it was because my character kills all 4 dummies so its rather hard to check dps etc because dps in such a test is limited to opponent life,

I also think results will change a lot if you factor in party buffs, because the dread enchantment's hit for 25% of weapon damage isn't effected by buffs and at the moment in that image is making up 5% of your dps, With buffs, it will drop to less than 1%. That is the terror icon you are seeing, btw. Also, I managed to get that to stack up to 12 times.

The enchant would also be a lot better if the 40% defense reduction translated into a 4% debuff as well, but then there would be 8% effectiveness and not 4% effectiveness.

When I can get the trans dread back again from a friend, I will retest with a lower weapon damage weapon, so I am unable to kill dummies.
I thought they fixed the "flying and dying" dummies?!

What do they look like when they die? Fade away and back in?

Pretty much, yes.

As for my results:

With 57% crit chance:

No Weapon Enchant:

Trans Dread:

Trans Fey:

Trans Vorp:

The difference between vorp and dread can pretty much all be accounted for by the dread hit for 25% of weapon damage, without that, dread and vorp would be equal, which means in dungeons with buff groups, vorp and dread will perform roughly equally. The tests are roughly 10 minutes long for each of them, but not exactly the same length, so I advise you refer to the dps column rather than the damage column.

zachisrising · March 2016

So according to the DPS column dread is better than fey for PvP?

sweatapodimas · March 2016

thefabricant said:

sweatapodimas said:

thefabricant said:
I think the main thing to take away from this is that dread is working on the elol set. When I tested it, I got much more disappointing results, but I am starting to think it was because my character kills all 4 dummies so its rather hard to check dps etc because dps in such a test is limited to opponent life,

I also think results will change a lot if you factor in party buffs, because the dread enchantment's hit for 25% of weapon damage isn't effected by buffs and at the moment in that image is making up 5% of your dps, With buffs, it will drop to less than 1%. That is the terror icon you are seeing, btw. Also, I managed to get that to stack up to 12 times.

The enchant would also be a lot better if the 40% defense reduction translated into a 4% debuff as well, but then there would be 8% effectiveness and not 4% effectiveness.

When I can get the trans dread back again from a friend, I will retest with a lower weapon damage weapon, so I am unable to kill dummies.
I thought they fixed the "flying and dying" dummies?!

What do they look like when they die? Fade away and back in?
Pretty much, yes.

As for my results:

With 57% crit chance:

The difference between vorp and dread can pretty much all be accounted for by the dread hit for 25% of weapon damage, without that, dread and vorp would be equal, which means in dungeons with buff groups, vorp and dread will perform roughly equally. The tests are roughly 10 minutes long for each of them, but not exactly the same length, so I advise you refer to the dps column rather than the damage column.

Awesome, thank you thefabricant, good point on the normalized DPS stat (I shoulda mentioned that). So my tests were similar (78k dread vs 76k vorp). If all things are equal then I like the weapon effects better, goes with my shadow demon and soulforge :P

umsche · March 2016

So apparently, the dread enchants adds crit severity to lostmauth set too.
Does it add crit severity to rimefire ?

darthpotater · March 2016

According to my tests in group content, with high geared teams dread performs better than vorpal because enemies die very fast and you use less at wills, and encounters hits harder and lostmauth bonus is activated mostly by multiproc encounters (CoI, Icy Terrain, Steal Time). With debuffed enemies, 75% crit sev is much more noticeable than 50% crit sev of vorpal (and disintegrate hits like a truck). Sure you lose 50% on dailies and at-wills but overall most of my dmg is coming from lostmauth and encounters.

This tests are unstable because you dont make runs with same groups, and every run is different. But since I am using Dread, my damage is much closer to GWFs in every group instance than before.

ironzerg79 · March 2016

Nice work @thefabricant. Thanks for taking the time to test it AND post the ACT logs for everyone to dig into.

As @kolatmaster would say...

thefabricant · March 2016

ironzerg79 said:
Nice work @thefabricant. Thanks for taking the time to test it AND post the ACT logs for everyone to dig into.

As @kolatmaster would say...

Just a few details about the test. I tested on SS thaum with icy veins and I dismissed my bonding companion during the test to prevent the random spikes in stats from messing with the results. Furthermore, I used a level 60 mainhand, to prevent myself from killing the dummies in dread ring so I could actually go ham against them.

vasiamen1 · March 2016

Guys, defense reduction doesn't work in pve or pvp, checked on Lurker.
Also damage resistance debuff has only 0.1s duration.

mamalion1234 · March 2016

fey and dread together i would say. BUT when to survive is ofcourse fey> any other enchant.

c1k4ml3kc3 · March 2016

Using Trans Vorp and Trans Dread on such low av.damage is a travesty. Pure travesty.

I'd understand that you are using F. Wizardry, but did you question what happens when you fully charge a Rene feat with Steal Time in a buffed-up party, everything frozen and charged? Then followed by a Sudden Storm?

Or do you think that Assailant, that doesn't crit, or Storm Spell feature, that doesn't crit, will do you anything good with those Enchs? : /

When using those enchs you[b]have to[/b] make two of the hardest hitting AOE spells count, and those are Steal Time and Sudden Storm. What do you think happens when you crit a lot with a big AOE in combination to the Lostmauth's set? What's better, 30k Steal Time or 100k+ steal time?

Try going a bit Renegade with those. Actually, try going full renegade, only adding 5/5 into oppressor where it counts.

thefabricant · March 2016

c1k4ml3kc3 said:
Using Trans Vorp and Trans Dread on such low av.damage is a travesty. Pure travesty.

I'd understand that you are using F. Wizardry, but did you question what happens when you fully charge a Rene feat with Steal Time in a buffed-up party, everything frozen and charged? Then followed by a Sudden Storm?

Or do you think that Assailant, that doesn't crit, or Storm Spell feature, that doesn't crit, will do you anything good with those Enchs? : /

When using those enchs you[b]have to[/b] make two of the hardest hitting AOE spells count, and those are Steal Time and Sudden Storm. What do you think happens when you crit a lot with a big AOE in combination to the Lostmauth's set? What's better, 30k Steal Time or 100k+ steal time?

Try going a bit Renegade with those. Actually, try going full renegade, only adding 5/5 into oppressor where it counts.

I forgot to include here that I was testing with a weapon with half the level 70 weapon damage as to not kill the dummies, which I included on the other 4 threads where my results where asked for as well as in my guide. The reason for this is to get more accurate results, because against dummies, your dps is limited by your ability to deal damage and when you are consistently killing them, you cannot accurately gouge dps and make fair comparisons. My actual dps is more than 2x that when I am using a level 70 weapon.

c1k4ml3kc3 · March 2016

I've no issues with that, but dummies are dummies. Steal time hits up to five potential mobs. You only hit three dummies.

My point is that +50% crit severity on a 3K crit is a travesty.

My other point is that Steal Time properly buffed, hits for over 100K, and then extra +50% crit severity comes into play.

And then, Lostmauth gets benefits, too.

So I suggest doing a test as a pure Rene with 5 points spent in the Oppressor feat which increases dmg vs chilly-willy targets.

Once again, regards.

thefabricant · March 2016

c1k4ml3kc3 said:
I've no issues with that, but dummies are dummies. Steal time hits up to five potential mobs. You only hit three dummies.

My point is that +50% crit severity on a 3K crit is a travesty.

My other point is that Steal Time properly buffed, hits for over 100K, and then extra +50% crit severity comes into play.

And then, Lostmauth gets benefits, too.

So I suggest doing a test as a pure Rene with 5 points spent in the Oppressor feat which increases dmg vs chilly-willy targets.

Once again, regards.

The reason I don't play SS Ren is simple, I play pure premades, with the support lineup High Prophet Righteous DC, Knight Captain tactician GF, High Vizier MoF Ren CW then either a 4th support, or 2 damage dealers. This means that I am either playing MoF ren (support) or most of the time, SS Thaum (dps), because there is a MoF ren providing the full spectrum of CW buffs and debuffs. No reason for an SS ren if that roll is already fulled by a MoF ren.

c1k4ml3kc3 · March 2016

You are wholeheartedly correct on that and MoF Renegade is the best CW support anyone can hope for. I'd be a MoF myself, but I'm sentimentally attached to the Lightning so that's a major factor for me. I can't count on high-end builds which rely their strength on Lostmauth set + Aura of Courage.
However, it's nice to have options and a bit more additional CC as a jack of all trades.

Entangling Force on Tab, Icy Terrain, stacks of arcane, stacks of chill, extra Steal time damage{+reset] + eventual OF = 4-6 sec max battle time, next target. And this with a lightning ench also procs Abyss of Chaos for extra 20-30% damage.
The good thing is that both CoI and Entanglng F are available as soon as you enter power tree.

If new mods taught me anything it is that weapon damage will only increase and Lightning ench will be more and more viable.

sangrine · March 2016

Sorry to continue off topic but ....
If you respec to MoF, then you can stop using steal time.
Replace steal time with Fanning the Flame.
Why would you want to not use steal time?
because conduit of ice (tab) + ray of enfeeblement + disintegrate + fanning the flame = 100% ranged
I can literally stand at max range and safely dps bosses in CN and e-demog and dragon fights.
Once you stop using steal time, you won't want to go back.

missdayum · May 2016

Cheers for the accurate test results I was wondering which enchantment would be on top after they released the dread one.

reefriednunt · May 2016

Your Vorpal test results don't include "Vorpal Weapon" results???

thefabricant · May 2016

reefriednunt#3177 said:
Your Vorpal test results don't include "Vorpal Weapon" results???

"Dread Weapon" is the name of the damage over time effect on dread, vorpal doesn't have a damage over time effect and thus there is no "vorpal weapon" in the combat log.

reefriednunt · May 2016

Ok thanks......so does that mean that just the damage over time effect of the dread, did 7% of your total damage?..and none of that 7% is the added crit severity???..also is the damage over time the part that gives a percentage of weapon damage for 4 seconds?

reefriednunt · May 2016

Also when you say that in dungeons the two enchants will preform about the same because of buff groups what do you mean?....when other players buff you why would weapon damage go down??.....sorry for noob questions

thefabricant · May 2016

reefriednunt#3177 said:
Ok thanks......so does that mean that just the damage over time effect of the dread, did 7% of your total damage?..and none of that 7% is the added crit severity???..also is the damage over time the part that gives a percentage of weapon damage for 4 seconds?

Yes, to both questions.

reefriednunt#3177 said:
Also when you say that in dungeons the two enchants will preform about the same because of buff groups what do you mean?....when other players buff you why would weapon damage go down??.....sorry for noob questions

The damage over time effect isn't influenced by buffs or debuffs. When running with a group, there are usually many buffs or debuffs. Say there are buffs and debuffs increasing your damage by 300%, this means that all other damage sources will increase by 300%, but the damage from the DoT will remain the same. This will lead to your damage looking like this:

Example: Assume you did 100 damage and the DoT did 7% of that.

93% of your damage was not the DoT and is buffed by 300%, becoming 279 damage.

(286/279-1)*100 = 2.508960573%

And so as a fraction of your damage, it is doing less.

Dread vs Vorpal Enchantment (preliminary ACT results)

Comments

Join the Greycloaks