lostmauth set : do an additional hit for weapon damage on a critical hit.

mamalion1234 · November 2015

http://postimg.org/image/eju1sw7el/ additional hit for weapon damage 300k+.
http://postimg.org/image/s53hkfkiz/ weapon damage of a drowned great weapon fighter weapon. 2273.
i compare this to feytouched enchant which is : deal 18% of weapon damage as psychic. That is correct it always deals 18% of the weapon damage and never scales with buff debuffs.
SO when you will fix the tooltip on lostmauth set or fix the lostmauth set to deal 100% of the weapon damage?

mamalion1234 · November 2015

i put as example lazalia to show that lostmauth set hit for weapon damage get any source of buff-debuff.

zacazu · November 2015

is better just leave it alone... fix that means create another item even more strong to replace a market/rp gap , and who know what that will be?

hedgebet · November 2015

Eventually they are going to have to address this Issue and most likely it will be the set that gets adjusted. As many GWF have pointed out the class gains particular effectiveness from this set (as well as other items). If the class is balanced around this set it will result in a significant decrease in any GWF not using it (and similarly if other classes are adjusted to be comparable to the GWF, where appropriate, that are not nearly as impacted by this set). Set bonuses like this should have never been allowed to go unaddressed for as long as they have as anyone with even the slightest bit of foresight can easily see that they can only be ultimately problematic for any class that gains excessively from them.

mamalion1234 · November 2015

and is not only on great weapon fighters. i can run again act on my wizard.

mamalion1234 · November 2015

http://postimg.org/image/jydtzcxg5/ my control wizard in prophecy of madness. here the numbers are not so high lack of buffs.

note: is like master of flame with storm spell.( here lostmauth play that role).

dufisto · November 2015

hedgebet said:
Eventually they are going to have to address this Issue and most likely it will be the set that gets adjusted. As many GWF have pointed out the class gains particular effectiveness from this set (as well as other items). If the class is balanced around this set it will result in a significant decrease in any GWF not using it (and similarly if other classes are adjusted to be comparable to the GWF, where appropriate, that are not nearly as impacted by this set). Set bonuses like this should have never been allowed to go unaddressed for as long as they have as anyone with even the slightest bit of foresight can easily see that they can only be ultimately problematic for any class that gains excessively from them.

its not out of hand on a tr/cw/sw/gf/op/dc/hr. its out of hand on gwfs. i wonder why? perhaps the 135% self buffs.......

mamalion1234 said:
http://postimg.org/image/jydtzcxg5/ my control wizard in prophecy of madness. here the numbers are not so high lack of buffs.

note: is like master of flame with storm spell.( here lostmauth play that role).

lots of 10k hits and lots of 200k hits are not the same. slight difference in scale. gwfs can do that with self buffs.

mamalion1234 · November 2015

dufisto said:

hedgebet said:
Eventually they are going to have to address this Issue and most likely it will be the set that gets adjusted. As many GWF have pointed out the class gains particular effectiveness from this set (as well as other items). If the class is balanced around this set it will result in a significant decrease in any GWF not using it (and similarly if other classes are adjusted to be comparable to the GWF, where appropriate, that are not nearly as impacted by this set). Set bonuses like this should have never been allowed to go unaddressed for as long as they have as anyone with even the slightest bit of foresight can easily see that they can only be ultimately problematic for any class that gains excessively from them.
its not out of hand on a tr/cw/sw/gf/op/dc/hr. its out of hand on gwfs. i wonder why? perhaps the 135% self buffs.......
mamalion1234 said:
http://postimg.org/image/jydtzcxg5/ my control wizard in prophecy of madness. here the numbers are not so high lack of buffs.

note: is like master of flame with storm spell.( here lostmauth play that role).
lots of 10k hits and lots of 200k hits are not the same. slight difference in scale. gwfs can do that with self buffs.

my point is it shouldnt scale at all just should be critical the weapon damage. if you have 2500 for example to do 5000

dufisto · November 2015

mamalion1234 said:

dufisto said:

hedgebet said:
Eventually they are going to have to address this Issue and most likely it will be the set that gets adjusted. As many GWF have pointed out the class gains particular effectiveness from this set (as well as other items). If the class is balanced around this set it will result in a significant decrease in any GWF not using it (and similarly if other classes are adjusted to be comparable to the GWF, where appropriate, that are not nearly as impacted by this set). Set bonuses like this should have never been allowed to go unaddressed for as long as they have as anyone with even the slightest bit of foresight can easily see that they can only be ultimately problematic for any class that gains excessively from them.
its not out of hand on a tr/cw/sw/gf/op/dc/hr. its out of hand on gwfs. i wonder why? perhaps the 135% self buffs.......
mamalion1234 said:
http://postimg.org/image/jydtzcxg5/ my control wizard in prophecy of madness. here the numbers are not so high lack of buffs.

note: is like master of flame with storm spell.( here lostmauth play that role).
lots of 10k hits and lots of 200k hits are not the same. slight difference in scale. gwfs can do that with self buffs.
my point is it shouldnt scale at all just should be critical the weapon damage. if you have 2500 for example to do 5000

outside of gwf's damage its not outrageous. its just that the other 2 dps sets completely suck.

hedgebet · November 2015

dufisto said:

outside of gwf's damage its not outrageous. its just that the other 2 dps sets completely suck.

It is still out of hand on other classes. Often for CW it is their top source of damage and on TR it is not unusual to come in as the second source of damage.

dufisto · November 2015

hedgebet said:

dufisto said:

outside of gwf's damage its not outrageous. its just that the other 2 dps sets completely suck.
It is still out of hand on other classes. Often for CW it is their top source of damage and on TR it is not unusual to come in as the second source of damage.

meanwhile lostmauth alone on a gwf it will near deal the total damage done by the cw. starting to see the point. a 15-20% gain from a 3 peice set bonus isnt outrageous by itself. its the scale of gain by 1 class vs all the rest that makes it so. saying its your #1 damage source doesnt mean much by itself. but what % of total damage you deal is the key factor.

hrs, palis, sws have skills that will not proc it or weapon chants. on my tankadin its 6% damage ( combat log filled with lostmauth proccing 0 damage hits). should he be nerfed too because gwfs can get 200+k hits out of it? my tr gets nearly 20% dmg out of it. but blade flurry is broken into 3 different damage types. combine them and it far outdamages lostmauth. on my gwf its 20% as well but that 20% is alot more damage than it is on my tr. and the gwf is only 2.2k vs 2.7 on my tr. and my tr has 65% crit vs the gwf coming in at 35%. my wizard is built as oppressor ( yeah i nerfed myself) and yeah its 20% of her damage. which isnt alot.

meanwhile imperial dragon set is barely 1% on my tankadin. and black ice didnt even register.

flowcyto · November 2015

a 15-20% gain from a 3 peice set bonus isnt outrageous by itself.

imo yes, it definitely is. I'd expect more of a 5-8% boost if we're only talking 3 pieces of gear (that still have their own stats) in total. Perhaps if those 3 pieces of gear had no stats and were locked at Common quality then they could provide larger bonuses when combined, but not as is (and that sort of gear design wouldn't really fit into NW anyways).

is better just leave it alone... fix that means create another item even more strong to replace a market/rp gap , and who know what that will be?

The devs shouldn't have to do anything market-wise to compensate for balance adjustments like this.

dufisto · November 2015

flowcyto said:
a 15-20% gain from a 3 peice set bonus isnt outrageous by itself.

imo yes, it definitely is. I'd expect more of a 5-8% boost if we're only talking 3 pieces of gear (that still have their own stats) in total. Perhaps if those 3 pieces of gear had no stats and were locked at Common quality then they could provide larger bonuses when combined, but not as is (and that sort of gear design wouldn't really fit into NW anyways).

is better just leave it alone... fix that means create another item even more strong to replace a market/rp gap , and who know what that will be?

The devs shouldn't have to do anything market-wise to compensate for balance adjustments like this.

so if they dropped the axebeak down to 400 arpen or the snail down to 2.5% ap and you had purchased it,keys to getit, zen to ad to get it, or weeks of grinding the same dungeon,. thats all good. since its just a balance change. or when the get around to nerfing palis/gwfs no need to respec them. its just a balance change...
and 20% is far less than hv/fabled gave. those are still in the game. so maybe they just stop dropping the horns and create another lucky or not imbalance.

flowcyto · November 2015

so if they dropped the axebeak down to 400 arpen or the snail down to 2.5% ap and you had purchased it,keys to getit, zen to ad to get it, or weeks of grinding the same dungeon,. thats all good. since its just a balance change. or when the get around to nerfing palis/gwfs no need to respec them. its just a balance change...
and 20% is far less than hv/fabled gave. those are still in the game. so maybe they just stop dropping the horns and create another lucky or not imbalance.

Power adjustments like to DP aren't directly tied to the economy; its the difference between compensating w/ raw AD vs. an in-game service item like a free respec. In the case of drastic power changes then yes the latter service is a fitting compensation. And yeah the stat-mounts are a bit silly atm- but I think most players here realize that, and they are still a somewhat new thing. Player-driven markets are always a risk, so to a degree I'm fine w/ how they could fluctuate in regards to factors like power balance.

Not advocating for a "to the ground" style thing- key words being 'to a degree' here as well. If LoL set drops to a 1-2% dps boost at best overnight then I will join you in the outrage.

dufisto · November 2015

flowcyto said:

so if they dropped the axebeak down to 400 arpen or the snail down to 2.5% ap and you had purchased it,keys to getit, zen to ad to get it, or weeks of grinding the same dungeon,. thats all good. since its just a balance change. or when the get around to nerfing palis/gwfs no need to respec them. its just a balance change...
and 20% is far less than hv/fabled gave. those are still in the game. so maybe they just stop dropping the horns and create another lucky or not imbalance.

Power adjustments like to DP aren't directly tied to the economy; its the difference between compensating w/ raw AD vs. an in-game service item like a free respec. In the case of drastic power changes then yes the latter service is a fitting compensation. And yeah the stat-mounts are a bit silly atm- but I think most players here realize that, and they are still a somewhat new thing. Player-driven markets are always a risk, so to a degree I'm fine w/ how they could fluctuate in regards to factors like power balance.

Not advocating for a "to the ground" style thing- key words being 'to a degree' here as well. If LoL set drops to a 1-2% dps boost at best overnight then I will join you in the outrage.

thats exactly what'll happen on my pali if lostmauth gets nerfed. and removing all power/buff bonus's will be a to the ground nerf.

parse your damage. count the number of lostmauth hits. multiply that by the max listed weapon damage. then replace that number with the damage lostmauth did in a real fight. now redo the math. ( a simple excel spreadsheet will make it easier to compare). heck i'll do it on my tr just for giggles. going to run etos for a parse now.

flowcyto · November 2015

The issue here is how the set scales. though- its an anomaly w/ how its setup. If it was more normalized to weapon dmg like most other boosts then it'd be easier to balance around. The high-end example of a crit-fiend GWF or CW getting say a 10% max boost would still be plausible, but then the low-end of the range would also be tighter.

Ideally, under-performing sets would be boosted too. So yea in that case it may (and prob should be) that ur Pally, for ex, would be better off w/ something else. Then one set loses value, but others gain value.

dufisto · November 2015

and the 135% dmg boost gwfs have before any other buffs are considered is a huge part of that problem

here's a normalized comparison for my fight vs high priestes syndrath listing the top 4 dmg sources

source	dmg		avg		hits		dmg %		dmg-nerf		dmg % %
Duelist's Flurry Bleed		4349893		23015.31		189		29.6993438		4349893		32.5035678
Lostmauth's Vengeance		1854180		5252.635		353		12.6596055		590569		4.4128901
Aura of Courage		1589378		2703.024		588		10.8516425		1589378		11.8762589
Poisonous Intent		1433265		1686.194		1806 850		9.7857648		1433265		10.7097407

dmg after nerf is the max damage of both weapons on my tr added then multiplied by the number of hits.
my crit rate for this run was 59%. so you see its not out of whack here. its out of whack on gwfs. notice aura of courage providing nearly the same damage. heck death slaad is a 10% boost at green.

edit: multiple edits because it mangled the table
edit: i forgot i moved some gear around. this parse is at 2.5k IL
edit:

"Ideally, under-performing sets would be boosted too. So yea in that case it may (and prob should be) that ur Pally, for ex, would be better off w/ something else. Then one set loses value, but others gain value."

what other sets: i dont die so no lathanders: i dont need the heals from seldarine, imperial dragon is already barely 1% of my damage when parsed. black ice isnt even worth mentioning, dont need control from valindras, i have 1 heal ( sanctuary) and 5% more of that is comepletely worthless so no tiamat.

so what set should he be using...

flowcyto · November 2015

defiantone99 said:
The majority of the players have the set. Most have it at mythic or legendary. With the player base as upset as it is now, nerfing the set would be a huge mistake.

*shrug* More reason to not just do singular balance changes in isolation.

I get that people hate nerfs, but its all on Cryptic to know the diff between destroying something and re-balancing it. It seems most people just assume its gonna be the former. I can't blame them for the cynicism, but its possible to bring in something out-of-range w/o rendering it useless.

In fact, what you said is prob why they haven't changed it yet. Not the principle of the matter as much as how it would be perceived.

urabask · November 2015

flowcyto said:

defiantone99 said:
The majority of the players have the set. Most have it at mythic or legendary. With the player base as upset as it is now, nerfing the set would be a huge mistake.
*shrug* More reason to not just do singular balance changes in isolation.

I get that people hate nerfs, but its all on Cryptic to know the diff between destroying something and re-balancing it. It seems most people just assume its gonna be the former. I can't blame them for the cynicism, but its possible to bring in something out-of-range w/o rendering it useless.

In fact, what you said is prob why they haven't changed it yet. Not the principle of the matter as much as how it would be perceived.

: |

Even if they don't destroy it they're still putting everyone on the upgrade treadmill and making everyone eat somewhere around 3 million AD to switch sets.

The only thing worse would be if alternative is switching to a buffed black ice set. Then you're set back 3 million AD AND you have to farm 500k black ice.

dufisto · November 2015

flowcyto said:

Not advocating for a "to the ground" style thing- key words being 'to a degree' here as well. If LoL set drops to a 1-2% dps boost at best overnight then I will join you in the outrage.

here is the same parse but with my buddies gwf: ( was the exact fight. i was just busy doing other stuff to post them both back to back)
note the only stats im caring about here are the lostmauth before and after
damage-nerf is figured as max listed damage for orange EE weapon * lostmauth procs
3.2k gwf with 70% crit rate.

source	dmg		avg		hits		dmg %		dmg-nerf		dmg %
Sure Strike		17129260		45556.54		376		36.4664482		17129260		47.5103686
Lostmauth's Vengeance	11622878		35762.7		325		24.7439223		703950		1.9525026
Aura of Courage	7831139		16556.32		473		16.6716965		7831139	21.7207457
Indomitable Battle Strike	4567185		217485			21		9.7230712		4567185		12.6677184

edit: tooooo lazy to fix the formating again
notice however the 1.95% dmg that lostmauth would provide if it only hit for max weapon damage. vs the 24.7% it is now.
i'd call that nerfing it into the ground.

again the point of this post is not to compare gwf damage vs tr or pali or any other class. its the effect that following a normalized proc for max weapon damage would have on the item set.

lostmauth was 7% of my palis damage during my last parse. and 4% of the hr's damage during the same fight. nerf it and its useless for both those classes ( and only marginally usefull as it is).

but if you really want to compare apples to apples. look at the damage difference for aura of courage. and you'll see my previous point about buffs and gwfs.

urabask · November 2015

verdonix1 said:
Why do you all really care, you take away the dps from a GWF and you don't have anything else..... Not a tank, not a healer, not a CC'r.... a GWF is purely DPS, that's it..... Are all you people crying on here, so infatuated with leading the Painkiller board that you want to break a class that has nothing else going for it?

You keep using Lazalia for an example, but you can't find another good one.... It has been 2 modules now, if they thought it was broken they would have "fixed" it....leave it be.... How many of you owe your gear to a HDPS GWF in your party?

Eh. Much as I agree that GWFs should be outdpsing other classes the degree to which they outdps every other class is a bit out of proportion with the role that other classes fufill. The only reason why this isn't even an issue is because even with CW/HR/TR dealing half the damage of a lower geared GWF they still can run through any content easily. But then you have a 2.5k GWF outperforming a 3k HR/CW/TR by a wide margin and that 500 ilvl involves millions of AD in refinement/enchantments. I don't mind giving up that spot on the paingiver board what I mind is that just because I chose the wrong class I have to spend a lot more AD to be up to par than a GWF does AND the role that my class is supposed to fufill is largely pointless because CC is worse than killing stuff.

dufisto · November 2015

defiantone99 said:
Every class has a build that at BIS levels can compete with BIS GWF in PVE.

show me ranger/tr videos soloing etos.
i can do it on my healadin by exploiting some bugs but its not quite the same thing now is it.

sw's can do it with equipment no longer in the game. havent seen a cw do it.
oh wait. now we'll get back into that "only gwf's are strikers" argument again.

kreatyve · November 2015

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lostmauth set : do an additional hit for weapon damage on a critical hit.

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