KIcking someone for not doing his job when you ask polite( please buff pt-aggro gf case) is elitism?

mamalion1234 · November 2015

I say about this class because since the rework on into the fray ( now also gives : ap gain damage buff ) guardian fighters in a random queue 85% of them they are not using it . WHen you see that on 2.5k gf +( i post the item levels based on community suppose to be exp) ask polite to buff and aggro because if dont do that then doesnt have place in the pt is a weight. They dont even answer. SO today i queue with my 2k gwf in pom in 2nd phase spawned many mobs i got the aggro i stayed alive for 15 sec but when i died i said thats it vote to kick why to stay in pt a guardian fighter primary role is to defend and instead i do the job for him ? . Answer after the kick: good fail haha And then ignored me. I tried to help my pt with advice and that guy was thinking hiself only and talk me with irony.

say : i didnt learn that power but ignoring the pt is too much.

Unknown · November 2015

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mamalion1234 · November 2015

i am trying to not kick but what is the role of gf if dont aggro and buff? even conquerors use into the fray.

flyingleon · November 2015

He may be new to GF and he needs time to learn. And it was only a skirmish, take it easy. It is normal one lose their cool when one died without party support, but it is a no no to kick others when he or she is trying.

vinceent1 · November 2015

into the fray is really mandatory at prophecy of maddness, i use it from first run

the other hand is if someone close the portal he should bring troops to me and not fight them alone, this is what other classess do all the time and its really frustrating

kemi1984 · November 2015

ITF is too good to pass up. Even if I'm in my DPS hat I learned to always use it.
Just put the baby on and see the numbers fly sky high!

Each and every PT member will love you for the buff it gives.

So yeah, ITF FTW !

kiraskytower · November 2015

First ... not every GF runs ITF. A lot use a combination of Iron Warrior/Knight's Valor/Enforced Threat when they are tanking. Every GF is built a bit differently and they use different abilities to get the right synergy with their feats and gear. Giving another character unsolicited advise (or making demands) on how to play their character most certainly smacks of elitism. If they ask what you want them to use ... or ask for advise, then feel free to give it. Otherwise consider how you would feel if they demanded you use an ability you either didn't have or were not comfortable with, then kicked you when you didn't.

There is a line here where some characters simply are not doing their job. Tanks that aren't taking agro, Healers who don't heal, controllers who don't control. It's the risk of a PUG run and the best advise I can give to you is not to PUG but play with people you know.

vinceent1 · November 2015

kiraskytower said:
First ... not every GF runs ITF. A lot use a combination of Iron Warrior/Knight's Valor/Enforced Threat when they are tanking. Every GF is built a bit differently and they use different abilities to get the right synergy with their feats and gear. Giving another character unsolicited advise (or making demands) on how to play their character most certainly smacks of elitism. If they ask what you want them to use ... or ask for advise, then feel free to give it. Otherwise consider how you would feel if they demanded you use an ability you either didn't have or were not comfortable with, then kicked you when you didn't.

There is a line here where some characters simply are not doing their job. Tanks that aren't taking agro, Healers who don't heal, controllers who don't control. It's the risk of a PUG run and the best advise I can give to you is not to PUG but play with people you know.

no, every endgame GF should have the possibility of buffing setup through into the frey. they even buffing themselves with speed. ¨

for example - iron warrior is too situational to not be replaced with into the frey sometimes. its not elitism

blinxon · November 2015

vinceent1 said:

the other hand is if someone close the portal he should bring troops to me and not fight them alone, this is what other classess do all the time and its really frustrating

Im not in the mood to bring grps of adds to a spot, if i can kill them in secounds. This advice you give is good for low dps grps, but not if you got 2 or 3 really good dps in grp. Its much faster as a dps class to kill the adds at portals when they spawn. Its much more frustrating if i open a portal and a gf thinks he have to tell you in party chat, that he MUST get aggro from all adds. It depends on grp. Really good dps classes killing adds in secounds. You dont need to bring the troops to the gf. Cost to much time.

Unknown · November 2015

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vinceent1 · November 2015

blinxon said:

vinceent1 said:

the other hand is if someone close the portal he should bring troops to me and not fight them alone, this is what other classess do all the time and its really frustrating
Im not in the mood to bring grps of adds to a spot, if i can kill them in secounds. This advice you give is good for low dps grps, but not if you got 2 or 3 really good dps in grp. Its much faster as a dps class to kill the adds at portals when they spawn. Its much more frustrating if i open a portal and a gf thinks he have to tell you in party chat, that he MUST get aggro from all adds. It depends on grp. Really good dps classes killing adds in secounds. You dont need to bring the troops to the gf. Cost to much time.

of course, but majority of parties, as i see it, has not many high dpsers so they should move towards tanks direction. allow him to grab them (shouldnt be easy), but when deaggroed, go close another portal - of course its about tank strenght how many mobs he can handle, sometimes you help him with killing

vinceent1 · November 2015

magenubbie said:

vinceent1 said:

no, every endgame GF should have the possibility of buffing setup through into the frey. they even buffing themselves with speed. ¨
for example - iron warrior is too situational to not be replaced with into the frey sometimes. its not elitism
They have the option. But that doesn't mean everyone did so. Remember, a lot of dungeons are missing. Fresh lvl70s have very little experience in party play. Even the leveling dungeons don't really require you to play your role. For someone focussed on solo-play -which, given the lack of dungeons you encounter along the way to 70 seems fair- ITF may not be the obvious option. They haven't been put through numerous dungeons like we have over the course of 5 mods. We know better. They do not. Yet.

Or perhaps this one did know he screwed up and is saving for a respec because he's not getting the power points to put into ITF. How can we tell? We can't. But should we demand he stops playing until he got it fixed? That would be.. rude at the very least. So a little consideration would be nice I think.

yea, thats the reason we all keep forum alive. to spread experience word for possible newbies that want to learn. Into the frey is just one of best abilities GFs has to miss it with skillpoints, thats it

jobsalotofwork · November 2015

ITF is alot of win. An alternate strategy may be to thank folks who give ITF. Other players may notice and learn about the goodness.

zekethesinner · November 2015

kiraskytower said:
First ... not every GF runs ITF. A lot use a combination of Iron Warrior/Knight's Valor/Enforced Threat when they are tanking. Every GF is built a bit differently and they use different abilities to get the right synergy with their feats and gear. Giving another character unsolicited advise (or making demands) on how to play their character most certainly smacks of elitism. If they ask what you want them to use ... or ask for advise, then feel free to give it. Otherwise consider how you would feel if they demanded you use an ability you either didn't have or were not comfortable with, then kicked you when you didn't.

There is a line here where some characters simply are not doing their job. Tanks that aren't taking agro, Healers who don't heal, controllers who don't control. It's the risk of a PUG run and the best advise I can give to you is not to PUG but play with people you know.

Hell no! Its not diffrent build as primary aspect, its damn lack of knowledge and experience. But even more often, lack of awarness and simple ignorance.

Lets make something stright.

If u r joining on party, there is 5 of u, every1 of (since he joined party willingly) has an obligation to make that party succes. There is 4 other ppl who r depending on ur imput, and u have 4 other ppl u r depending on they imput.

Ur damn job is to make that party success. Ur damn job is to make everything u can to make this party success, thats the moment when ur argument "i have right to my own build, i have right to my own play style" has no meaning at all. Coz if 5 ppl "i have right to my own build" meets, party usualy never finish the dungeon. This argument is so damaging on ppl progress, its unimaginable some1 rly is defending it.

Ofc there is not "only right build, only right playstyle" i know this rly good. But there is a pull of builds and playstyles which r acceptable(=woring, helpfull for party, have imput), small or big, depends of class, and evrything beside that is jepoardizing party succes.

IW is almost usless for some certain reasons, first of all with that long animation u dont get demanded amount of tempHP (either down or healed) second one is threat generation, ET works much better alone. If i see GF using IW instead of ITF, i assume he is not quite the best gf i could encounter.

Second thing is what exactly ITF does. Its not some punky encounter. Its best what GF can trow in party. Heavy depending on ur DR, but most of GF turtle behind they shield and build high DR anyway.

-AP gain
-Stamina gain
-Run speed
-DPS buff for all members of party equal to current DR

U want even compare that with IW (for some reasons ITF is mostly replaced with IW, qe?)?

Next thing, again back to point 1, but from another direction. Elitism. U can call me that, thats fine. But there is also my point of view. I put big effort to maintain my toons best i can, to be most usefull for my future party. I have right to at least expect from my party members that they will do half of my job (or 1/7 is u ask me, wko knows me, knows why) and at least make one good toon. Just to make life of they 4 comrades easyer, and, next poin,. they life easyer.

So the last point. U know what i often see (or saw in this case, i lately even avoid legit and play only with trusted friends, some r good, some r excelent and much better than me on certain classes, but all do they job)? Prot gf turtling 100% of the time behind his shield, striking with agregative strike from time to time, to scared to use KV coz it will kill him, to scared to drop shield, coz it will kill him (his fault, since after 3 mods of playing he still dont know bosses rotations and skills), to scared to even use that beloved IW, coz it will kill him (and often does). And complaining about how game is hard for them, complaing they cant kill anything, or even that they die in solo content (takes them so long to kill a pull, pull eventually kills them). So the last point, and most importat one, is they own pleasure from this game. Many many, MANY of gfs (and gwfs and all other classes) is discuraged in this game, coz they cant progress, cant see result, they think game is too hard. But when i try to give advices to them, they put me on ignore and often call elitist, and then go back to crying about too hard content. U know where is the root of this troubles? "i have right to my own playstyle".

For stadards of many sensitive ppl here im elitist. Ehh thats fine, tho for my defense i never kicked some1 (beside ppl d/c for half of dung or whoel dung) and when party was rly bad and i was not able to pull it through (or it would took too damn long, im perfectionist, thats for sure, i like do stuff fast and with no mistakes, unless u r new, even those who dont like me can say im always willing to help a newbie) i just leave.

One last thing, i solely belive that tank is a core of party, that tank (gf in this case) often decides of party success or failure. And from all classes u can get in party, tank must be most reliable and has the smallest window of right playstyles (belive me or not, build acctualy does not matter, u go conq, tact or prot, all is fine, u take some feat btw, u take it not, all is fine, everything cracks down on, so hated by me term, playstyle. tank cant be coward, cant 100% turtle, tank reacts, tank moves in small cane, good tank simply always reacts, moves and hits, and buffs, and hits).

Ehh, and i wrote letter again, deepest apologies for evry1 who acctualy read that. I tend to do write so long posts, always trying to address too much, and there is always something i can address in my addressing. its in my nature i guess.

TL:DR i agree there is a line, but that damn line is higher u want to admit it is, and ppl usualy hang themself on it.

(Sin)cerely
Kain

ghoulz66 · November 2015

Let people do what they want, as long as the party pulls through. I can understand kicking people left and right for perma CCing thoon hulks or never directing their charge wind up. That's when you have no choice because they're preventing you from completing the run.

Besides, you can't blame GFs for slotting IW. Some aren't decked out yet to maintain perma guard, it doesn't magically happen.

Unknown · November 2015

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hedgebet · November 2015

I am immune to being kicked from groups since I am always alone outside the other 4 in dungeons and skirmishes.

santralafax · November 2015

I was in ECC a couple of days ago and through the entire dungion I got kick requests for 3 different people in the party. Some twice. I turned each one down as I didn't see any reason to hoot them. They did successfully kick somebody 2/3 of the way in. A second person quit and we only got one replacement.

After waiting 5 minutes, I noted that I didn't know who as in the kick group, but now we had no tank, thanks alot. And I left.

Kicking is not a fix for all things.

thefabricant · November 2015

magenubbie said:

zekethesinner said:

< snipped >
its damn lack of knowledge and experience. But even more often, lack of awarness and simple ignorance.
< snipped >
I snipped your well-written "letter" for readability, but In essence I agree with what's in it.
The question in this thread is this: do we have to punish people for that lack of experience? We were all fresh lvl70s once. Granted, we had a bit more dungeon experience than the rookies these days, but there were times we didn't know better either. Don't get me wrong. I believe in educating yourself -and others when possible- so that you can be the best you can be. But the only way some people learn is by doing. Strange as it is, the amount of forum users in this game is at an abysmal level (pun intended). Never have I seen so few people participate or even read an MMO's forums section.

"But I'm not a GF. The only think I notice ITF does is increase mov speed and that annoys me more often than not" I hear that a lot from inexperienced players as well. People lack general education. That's not a crime, but I can't force them to learn either. I can only try.
I happen to know a little about GFs because most of my guild members love to share what they do and why. Otherwise I wouldn't even know what ITF was, let alone what it does. I had to learn that. And so does every other player out there, GF or not. But I'm not willing to kick people for knowing less than I do. I was given the chance to learn how to play my CW and TR properly. They deserve that same chance. Even at the cost of a wipe. There's no shame in wiping. It means somebody had to learn something. And there's nothing wrong with that.

This is true, however, on the occasions when I random queue and find someone who I know I can help and I give them advice, I am either shouted down by them, shouted down by the party, put on ignore, vote kicked or the person leaves. In this game, people are so afraid to see that they could be doing better, because it means they are not perfect already. I spent a long time in a random group when on my CW to try and convince a paladin to use his powers properly recently, he left the group and I ended up having to have my tank companion kite one scorpion while I kited the other.

Normally, when I try to explain things I say, "Hey, try using this, this and that, you may see an improvement and there is no harm in trying something new out" and guess what, rather then trying out something new, I get flat out ignored.

zekethesinner · November 2015

magenubbie said:

zekethesinner said:

< snipped >
its damn lack of knowledge and experience. But even more often, lack of awarness and simple ignorance.
< snipped >
I snipped your well-written "letter" for readability, but In essence I agree with what's in it.
The question in this thread is this: do we have to punish people for that lack of experience? We were all fresh lvl70s once. Granted, we had a bit more dungeon experience than the rookies these days, but there were times we didn't know better either. Don't get me wrong. I believe in educating yourself -and others when possible- so that you can be the best you can be. But the only way some people learn is by doing. Strange as it is, the amount of forum users in this game is at an abysmal level (pun intended). Never have I seen so few people participate or even read an MMO's forums section.

"But I'm not a GF. The only think I notice ITF does is increase mov speed and that annoys me more often than not" I hear that a lot from inexperienced players as well. People lack general education. That's not a crime, but I can't force them to learn either. I can only try.
I happen to know a little about GFs because most of my guild members love to share what they do and why. Otherwise I wouldn't even know what ITF was, let alone what it does. I had to learn that. And so does every other player out there, GF or not. But I'm not willing to kick people for knowing less than I do. I was given the chance to learn how to play my CW and TR properly. They deserve that same chance. Even at the cost of a wipe. There's no shame in wiping. It means somebody had to learn something. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Not for lack of experience, i still learn this game, evry1 i know still learns, changes builds/boons/artis, try new playstyles, etc, etc. So its fully understandable that there r ppl who know much less than i do, coz they simply didnt yet encounterd obstacles i did, but what i dont accept is stubborness, ignorance and high self-confidence in they skills, while evrything around them is falling apart.

(Sin)cerely
Kain

instynctive · November 2015

A lot of people just aren't interested in wanting to play their class roles. Everyone wants to be DPS, and while yes, such and such a class *can* DPS, it's never very much, and that party slot can be better served by a class that can do its job.

My next GWF will be healing/crowd control. I'll opt for Frontline Surge for CC and run around and give potions of healing to everyone.

thefabricant · November 2015

instynctive said:

My next GWF will be healing/crowd control. I'll opt for Frontline Surge for CC and run around and give potions of healing to everyone.

@instynctive I am tempted to stick this into my sig, its really humorous and sums up pug groups so perfectly. I am sure @clonkyo1 will appreciate this

instynctive · November 2015

thefabricant said:

instynctive said:

My next GWF will be healing/crowd control. I'll opt for Frontline Surge for CC and run around and give potions of healing to everyone.
@instynctive I am tempted to stick this into my sig, its really humorous and sums up pug groups so perfectly. I am sure @clonkyo1 will appreciate this

lol.. thanks, Fabricant.

Every time one of my guild members says "I'm gonna make a DPS [not a DPS class]", that's my standard response.

Of course, they get pissy when they don't get invited to go on dungeon delves... :-/

silverkelt · November 2015

I remember when FLS was the BOMB.. ah those old GWF builds I still miss you.

That said.. Im going to give a bit of advice as well.. EVERY combination of skills, powers, feats, classes, in this entire game, can beat mostly everything.. some make it a BUNCH easier on everyone though.

Unknown · November 2015

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zibadawa · November 2015

kiraskytower said:
Tanks that aren't taking agro,

The bigger problem is tanks that aren't tanking. I'm looking at you, heal-adins. You take the aggro, and then you die. What is your point?

instynctive · November 2015

clonkyo1 said:

instynctive said:
My next GWF will be healing/crowd control. I'll opt for Frontline Surge for CC and run around and give potions of healing to everyone.
Clonkyo1's Seal of Approval . Do not forget to use "Shared Survival" too!!!! That way, you heal your team mates too when you drink a healing potion!!!!

Brilliant! I'll be sure to add that on!

moltenperezoso · November 2015

zibadawa said:

kiraskytower said:
Tanks that aren't taking agro,
The bigger problem is tanks that aren't tanking. I'm looking at you, heal-adins. You take the aggro, and then you die. What is your point?

The same could be said to other players that are too squishy..... Yes Tankadins have ajob to do, but you need to pay better attention to your situational awareness and not play the game different because you have a healer or a tank and assume "oh I don't have to pay attention because tank/healer will keep me alive... Don't be a lazy player....

mafoi1515 · November 2015

Playing in random groups with new players can be really fun, but sometimes it is better just leave group because they dont listen-understand regular engrish expression... HE & Skirmish -game has now some encounters what really needs listening and not do brainless zerg to any appearing mobs...

No need kick, just leave group, new players learn by time... and if like be Savior & Hero, then can stay and try teach, but all beings patience ends and they do what they must to protect their own sanity and peace...

ps. CW who entangling-repelling mobs around is entertaining to look, but leaving very soon...

ghoulz66 · November 2015

zibadawa said:

kiraskytower said:
Tanks that aren't taking agro,
The bigger problem is tanks that aren't tanking. I'm looking at you, heal-adins. You take the aggro, and then you die. What is your point?

Looking at me? What did I do? I keep people alive. Not my fault you land in with a bad healer or can't even keep yourself alive for one second.

KIcking someone for not doing his job when you ask polite( please buff pt-aggro gf case) is elitism?

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