Why do Utillity Enchantments count as Item Level?

zomganabb · October 2015

Why do Utillity Enchantments count as Item Level?

Utillity like XP, Gold, Glory and RP stones are great but not when fighting mobs.
I can see that running speed can be usefull in PVP or runing away from mobs...

Valindras Tower have 1600 ilvl requirement, so if i got 1400 in real offence/defence and +200 in XP and RP stones gain.
Lets que and wipe....

Either remove utillity from item level or raise the requiremets to run dungeons.

thefabricant · October 2015

Item level is a misleading number that tells you nothing about the ability of a group. You do not need 1.6k ilvl for t1's, they quite possible with a lower ilvl and you don't need 2k for t2's, they also likely possible with a lower ilvl. In fact, I would just lower the ilvl required to enter a dungeon by however much ilvl utility slots count, then remove the ilvl added by utility enchants.

dufisto · October 2015

thefabricant said:
You do not need 1.6k ilvl for t1's, they quite possible with a lower ilvl and you don't need 2k for t2's, they also likely possible with a lower ilvl. In fact, I would just lower the ilvl required to enter a dungeon by however much ilvl utility slots count, then remove the ilvl added by utility enchants.

i beg to differ. sure a single 1.6 wont kill any t1 run. 2 is doable. 3 or 4 and you're dragging them through with a permabubble. same thing for t2s.

twinked alts are 1 thing. and they're higher than 2.k the second they hit 70, if not well before. but a fresh 1.6 with only a couple of tod boons isnt contributing alot. especially if they're the tank. and i've run across my fair share of those. ( half the time they're in purple pvp gear too, so they can squeek past the ilvl req).

thefabricant · October 2015

dufisto said:

thefabricant said:
You do not need 1.6k ilvl for t1's, they quite possible with a lower ilvl and you don't need 2k for t2's, they also likely possible with a lower ilvl. In fact, I would just lower the ilvl required to enter a dungeon by however much ilvl utility slots count, then remove the ilvl added by utility enchants.
i beg to differ. sure a single 1.6 wont kill any t1 run. 2 is doable. 3 or 4 and you're dragging them through with a permabubble. same thing for t2s.

twinked alts are 1 thing. and they're higher than 2.k the second they hit 70, if not well before. but a fresh 1.6 with only a couple of tod boons isnt contributing alot. especially if they're the tank. and i've run across my fair share of those. ( half the time they're in purple pvp gear too, so they can squeek past the ilvl req).

Look in my signature, the 2k ilvl eCC run. We did 1 run with no pally etc. Our characters were essentially wearing gear that they almost always wore, sitting at 2k. The trick is not to confuse, "a 2k properly built character with their gear and stats invested in the right things" with a character who is simply 2k. It is easy to inflate your character to 2k and sacrifice everything important in the process and a lot of players do that, where as if they properly built their characters, they would be sitting at 1.5k ilvl or less. The same is true with the 1.6k ilvl requirement, what players do is they find their char at around about 1.2k ilvl when hitting 70 (I levelled a char with no help from alts, no class artifacts, only my mount because I could't abide with the slow horse) and the difference between how I geared up a fresh char and how I see others gear it up is apparent. What I see those players who are failing at dungeons do is firstly, not do any testing on preview server for how to build their char or not referring to guides other players have made on how to build their char, making their char badly optimised. Secondly, they use whatever piece of gear gives them the highest ilvl, not whatever piece of gear is the most optimal.

Once your char is at about 1.2k ilvl, you have 2 choices, the easy one, which is to get a bunch of bad gear which is not optimal and meet the ilvl requirement, which is what most people do, or to spend some time acquiring gear with the right stats, which is what I did. Bear in mind, this was an alt I levelled up without the aid of my other characters (my OP actually, as it were and I did it at the start of mod 6, I had no guide to refer to at the time as I went devotion and at the time my build was a suboptimal light path, but I fixed that later after I was satisfied with the f2p levelling test and then decided to break down and grab currency from other characters)

The point is, if players decide to build their char properly, rather then to gimp their char, it will take them longer to reach 1.6k or 2.0k ilvl, but when they do reach it, they will actually be able to do the dungeons. A 1.6k char with the wrong stats and wrong build might as well be an 800 ilvl char, because their char is not optimised properly. The aim should not be to squeeze past the ilvl requirement, it should be to have the right gear and the right build for that ilvl.

Remember, the ilvl requirement is not the recommended ilvl, it is the MINIMUM REQUIRED ilvl and if you intend to beat a dungeon with the minimum ilvl required, your group has to play optimally and build their characters optimally.

dufisto · October 2015

thefabricant said:

Remember, the ilvl requirement is not the recommended ilvl, it is the MINIMUM REQUIRED ilvl and if you intend to beat a dungeon with the minimum ilvl required, your group has to play optimally and build their characters optimally.

i agree with this, but there is no way to check whether the person has build their toon properly before hand. thus the insane ilvl requests people in /lfg are looking for. even taking away utility slots so that 1.6 actually reflects real gear a bad build is a bad build. theres also a huge difference in several "veterans" and some random pug. even with people following prebuilt guides.

rayrdan · October 2015

the present ilvl concept is useless regardless utility being counted or not.
gear score was much better.

klangeddin · October 2015

How ironic that IL ended up being a worse indicator than Gear Score.

regenerde · October 2015

I think the "problem" is located in the PuG "system", and there is an easy solution for this:
If you don't like the PuG result in dungeons/skirmishes, then don't queue random/solo.

Create your own merry band of heroes in PE, and then do the run with a perfect group.
The inspect over chat is working again, so you can check out the players before you invite them into your group.

And the Devs should really consider extensive bug fixing, before they start working on anything else.

snotty · October 2015

neither gear score or item level indicates anything more then that player happens to have good gear. It doesnt tell if that player is a good player, has a good build or even knows what the hell he's doing.

I've seen it too many times to count and im sure most others have too. You get into a run, look at their gear, think "ok this guys got nice gear, this should go smooth" only to later realize that guy is a complete nub. Using pointless skills, doing stuff that makes no sense, causing wipes.

Anyone can have good gear if they're willing to spend enough cash or are lucky enough to have a group of friends to carry them through dungeons and stuff to get the gear. But not everyone understands how to play.

silverkelt · October 2015

Frankly, any average group of players in thier mid 2.5s will be able to do all content in the game.. almost regardless of builds.

Are there a small percentage of really high i levels who suck? Ya but its REALLY small, usually devoted that much time to the game, they will play their class fairly well and frankly a 3.5k dps toon, will blow things up by just smashing buttons anyways.

Will sometimes a 2.1k i level play very well? Of course.

People shouldnt devote so much time worrying about I level.. worry about the fun =P

Some of my funnest runs were hard ones, based on weird setups that have nothing to do with how easy the run was. We did a 3 tr/cw/dc run today in elol, and scorps presented a problem, randomly figured out how to do it though (and it ended up being a 4 man run for it, as one of our TRS dc'd at the start. TRS suck at aggro lol. It maybe the only class I will admit can struggle at scrop kiting. My poor cw stood in the corner and still got aggro without hitting any skills or doing anything at all. But it was sort of fun to try this group comp. This is what to me makes never-winter fun, (like in lotro, when I healed 3 man content with my Loremaster traited in blue and my bogmonster) I cant tell you how many times my friend and I would get a random 3rd and they would be like, where is the healer.. it was fun to prove to people that sometimes there is more then one way to get through stuff.

But , Ive also had fun, trying to blow through elol in 5 mins.. havent done it yet.. got to 6 mins and 34 seconds the other day though.

oldbaldyone · October 2015

Like it or not, IL or GS or something else is going to be used to determine whether or not you enter dungeons. Otherwise, fresh naked level 70's will be pulled through by BIS guildmates and be top gear in a day. Level 70 is simply not enough of a gauge to judge whether you are ready or not.

That said, there are always people trying to ice skate up hill. If you don't wish to get saddled with a 1400 IL person with dragonhoards pushing them to 1600, then create your own group.

Otherwise, give it a shot with what you got. You may be surprised what you can do when you actually ignore IL and focus on the task at hand.

silverkelt · October 2015

there is barely any reason to run dds.. the gear is almost meaningless.

I dont mind gating it.. but they gate the wrong things, its like tiamat.. the reason we have failures are because of scrubs who have 24% arp.

Its not a one size fit category, but it would help if they moved that instance to a 35% minimum arp to enter.. I would like higher, but thats more then fair.

and yes.. even ops, dcs and gfs, need arp, thats why I left it so low.

dufisto · October 2015

oldbaldyone said:
Like it or not, IL or GS or something else is going to be used to determine whether or not you enter dungeons. Otherwise, fresh naked level 70's will be pulled through by BIS guildmates and be top gear in a day. Level 70 is simply not enough of a gauge to judge whether you are ready or not.

hate to break it to you but getting to 1.6 or 2.0 is stupidly easy. and we already pull fresh 1.6ers through the t1, and fresh 2.0ers through etos/ecc.
and blue/purple alliance sets arent "top gear"

zomganabb · October 2015

snotty said:
neither gear score or item level indicates anything more then that player happens to have good gear. It doesnt tell if that player is a good player, has a good build or even knows what the hell he's doing.

I've seen it too many times to count and im sure most others have too. You get into a run, look at their gear, think "ok this guys got nice gear, this should go smooth" only to later realize that guy is a complete nub. Using pointless skills, doing stuff that makes no sense, causing wipes.

Anyone can have good gear if they're willing to spend enough cash or are lucky enough to have a group of friends to carry them through dungeons and stuff to get the gear. But not everyone understands how to play.

I agree!

Ofc you can always use the "it is not the gear... it's the player!" and it's a true statement for all players, from fresh first lvl70 newbie player, people that have been free buffed by friends/guild to good gear, wallet worriors and even "experienced" mmo players.
Gear score/item level does not indicate how the person behind the keyboard plays or know wtf to do.

Have been in countless pugs where my (atm.) 2,3k CW out dps 3,8k bis players (ofc they could have been lazy, taging along in there sleep) but im not so sure, they where in there all the time using encounters, at-wills and moving around...

But enyway.. All i want to see, is if you remove ilvl from utillity, people will eventually get the point: Aha! i need scores like Arpen, crit, hp etc. to be usefull at some degree. Then you eliminate some of the utterly bad or miss geared toons to run a dungeon, despite skill level behind a keyboard

regenerde · October 2015

And as mentioned allready, if you want a perfect run, the tools for it are allready in place.

Recruit your group members through LfG or any other given channel, inspect the characters before you invite them into your group, then do your dungeon run.

There's no need for wasting Dev time on this, especially with all those real bugs still being around in game...

Why do Utillity Enchantments count as Item Level?

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