The great PVP item level gap

hoofit · October 2015

I love pvp but it has become a joke, 90% of the time a one sided fight becuase all high itme level players seem to get placed on one side, is this intent by cryptic? seems like it to me after studying a lot of games.
You said the pvp league was to encourage new players but the gap between level 70 PVP players is now so wide, new players fighting a fully geared player is like a level 10 hitting a 50 and when that player is using certain glitches makes it even worse.
A while ago you your selves cryptic said you where balancing classes in pvp but it's all gone up in smoke, unkillable TR's, Pallys that take a whole team to kill, GF's that 2 hit kill, HR's that spam fox shift and root you to the spot non stop, broken enchants and feats that give an unbelivable edge, not much balance I see just an ever worsening state.
My question and this is just to you cryptic, are you ever going to balance Pvp and make it fun again as I find the game boring when you just stand around because its slaughter be it on the winning side or loosing side its no fun to stand doing nothing.
I think you need to pvp to see just how bad it has got.
Encourage new pvp'ers I for one think you are doing the oppersite and pushing away new players.

urlord283 · October 2015

I would say it is about 50% of the time "Premades" unbalance the game.

That said, I am stunned to see so many folks have the green metallic framed Artifacts... Legendary?

I have a IL of 2970 and can't touch them... I guess the next Double refinement weekend I will catch up, but that will not help the premades.

Separate the queues

Urlord

urabask · October 2015

urlord283 said:
I would say it is about 50% of the time "Premades" unbalance the game.

That said, I am stunned to see so many folks have the green metallic framed Artifacts... Legendary?

I have a IL of 2970 and can't touch them... I guess the next Double refinement weekend I will catch up, but that will not help the premades.

Separate the queues

Urlord

You mean Mythic? Mythic artifacts were relatively cheap to make after AD was removed from leadership. r5 stacks dropped to 4-5k so people were probably making mythic artifacts for somewhere around 900k-1 million each (although technically you can probably cut out the cost of greater marks of union/power/stability because of DR so it probably cost them more like 680k).

zibadawa · October 2015

That's really only cheap if you were already exploiting a leadership army.

namelesshero347 · October 2015

Mythic artifacts are not cheap anymore now that cryptic is taking more substantial actions against bots thanks to the incessant complaints from all the bot-bashers and snitches on the forums (I suspect most of these people already got their mythics and just wanted the ladder pulled up so no one else can get cheap mythics).

namelesshero347 · October 2015

urabask said:
r5 stacks dropped to 4-5k so people were probably making mythic artifacts for somewhere around 900k-1 million each.

If you were willing to do a bit of extra work refining, R4 stacks were about 20% cheaper than R5s. I've made a few mythics just from R4's alone. Worth the savings. Too bad those days are gone and probably never coming back.

urabask · October 2015

zibadawa said:
That's really only cheap if you were already exploiting a leadership army.

You've got to look at it in the sense that for just about everything you should be saving up towards stuff like this. Heck, I made 500k during the gond event just selling sprockets and profession resources. Take advantage of events and run dungeons/skirmishes and 600-900k for 2600 stat points really isn't that much. Also, relative to anything else about the only similarly cheap upgrade would be getting an ioun stone.

Honestly the real gap is enchants, armor enchants, weapon and enchants and artifact equipment. One r12 is 1.5-2 million. A T. Negation/Feytouched is 6 million etc. etc.

namelesshero347 said:

urabask said:
r5 stacks dropped to 4-5k so people were probably making mythic artifacts for somewhere around 900k-1 million each.
If you were willing to do a bit of extra work refining, R4 stacks were about 20% cheaper than R5s. I've made a few mythics just from R4's alone. Worth the savings. Too bad those days are gone and probably never coming back.

So. Much. Clicking.

drkbodhi · October 2015

The OfficialPuGPvP channel is somewhat dormant because of this.

icyphish · October 2015

maybe its time to start a ADMakers channel...

tyria501 · October 2015

On the original topic of this post, the massive gap in item levels in PVP and resulting imbalance... Perhaps the level 70 bracket could be broken into item level queue tiers like the level 70 Epic Dungeons. 1600-2000, 2001-2500, 2501-3000. 3001+ ? Something along that line. Ensuring that Players with 3k+ can only fight players with similar item levels.
It might be too complicated to program but they did successfully gate the dungeons into item level requirements. Even if this was possible to implement it does not account for class imbalance or broken skills but it would even out the item level gap.

santralafax · October 2015

namelesshero347 said:
Mythic artifacts are not cheap anymore now that cryptic is taking more substantial actions against bots thanks to the incessant complaints from all the bot-bashers and snitches on the forums (I suspect most of these people already got their mythics and just wanted the ladder pulled up so no one else can get cheap mythics).

Cryptic didn't fight the bots because people ask. Cryptic handles their own interests. People ask for stuff all the time that never happens.

cesuke · October 2015

Ítem gap is not the most problem are the premades exploiters that come even with many crabs so u can even mov while they hit u. And the only victim of bots was cryptic ... All ppl benefits from cheap R4/5 stacks.

Unknown · October 2015

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zibadawa · October 2015

tyria501 said:
On the original topic of this post, the massive gap in item levels in PVP and resulting imbalance... Perhaps the level 70 bracket could be broken into item level queue tiers like the level 70 Epic Dungeons. 1600-2000, 2001-2500, 2501-3000. 3001+ ? Something along that line. Ensuring that Players with 3k+ can only fight players with similar item levels.
It might be too complicated to program but they did successfully gate the dungeons into item level requirements. Even if this was possible to implement it does not account for class imbalance or broken skills but it would even out the item level gap.

This would be indescribably easy to implement.

banaanc · October 2015

tyria501 said:
On the original topic of this post, the massive gap in item levels in PVP and resulting imbalance... Perhaps the level 70 bracket could be broken into item level queue tiers like the level 70 Epic Dungeons. 1600-2000, 2001-2500, 2501-3000. 3001+ ? Something along that line. Ensuring that Players with 3k+ can only fight players with similar item levels.
It might be too complicated to program but they did successfully gate the dungeons into item level requirements. Even if this was possible to implement it does not account for class imbalance or broken skills but it would even out the item level gap.

the problem isnt really the queue, the problem is lack of players, would you really be willing to wait 3 hours on queue, and how many other players would be willing to do that ? even in LoL(most populated mmo by a landslide) at top level queues can take hours to pop because there are only that many top players

also it would be easy to remove some items to get your ilvl down, and i bet there are a bunch of morons who consider themselves "pro pvp" players that would abuse the hell out of this, because they cant kill anybody at their own gear level(because of cheats, wallhack and lags, somebody ddosing them ofc), many other ppl would just abuse that because at top level queue times would be too long

namelesshero347 · October 2015

santralafax said:
Cryptic didn't fight the bots because people ask. Cryptic handles their own interests. People ask for stuff all the time that never happens.

Cryptic finally killed the Ghost Stories opportunity. You think that change was hard to implement? That could have been done a long time ago. Then when you have snitches complaining on a daily basis about GS like it's in their backyard and posting images of the live GS instances running, Cryptic finally woke up and did something about it. So now, no more cheap RP

Unknown · October 2015

This content has been removed.

ayroux · October 2015

This issue is EASILY solved and it boggles my mind they havnt done it yet - well now that I reflect on it im NOT suprised. The reason there is such a big PVP gap is because there are idiots that post on these forums. The SAME idiots that think allowing companions in PVP is a good idea. They are the reason.

Why?

Because they need to create LESS items in PVP (total number) which would make the difference between BIS and not BIS smaller.

An example:
Just like companions should not help you in PVP, so it should be with SECONDARY artifacts. Only primary artifacts should affect your stats and be what can be used for PVP. Doing this removes literally about 8-10k worth of stats from the game. Thats a MASSIVE drop in the gear divide alone...

Another example:
PVP Gear. They need to REMOVE tenacity on gear, and give EVERYONE a "base level" of tenacity. RE-allocate the tenacity stat back into the other stats (so the total stats are the same) and then the PVP gear is just ONE option for PVP. Doing this will make sure that players have a chance in PVP and dont get at willed for 30k because they have no tenacity....

asterotg · October 2015

ayroux said:
This issue is EASILY solved and it boggles my mind they havnt done it yet - well now that I reflect on it im NOT suprised. The reason there is such a big PVP gap is because there are idiots that post on these forums. The SAME idiots that think allowing companions in PVP is a good idea. They are the reason.

Why?

Because they need to create LESS items in PVP (total number) which would make the difference between BIS and not BIS smaller.

An example:
Just like companions should not help you in PVP, so it should be with SECONDARY artifacts. Only primary artifacts should affect your stats and be what can be used for PVP. Doing this removes literally about 8-10k worth of stats from the game. Thats a MASSIVE drop in the gear divide alone...

Another example:
PVP Gear. They need to REMOVE tenacity on gear, and give EVERYONE a "base level" of tenacity. RE-allocate the tenacity stat back into the other stats (so the total stats are the same) and then the PVP gear is just ONE option for PVP. Doing this will make sure that players have a chance in PVP and dont get at willed for 30k because they have no tenacity....

Those 'idiots' made it clear in the testing phase, that no one wants active companions in PvP. Guess who promised one thing and did the other. Add Ap drain runes, stronghold boons and even with near BIS gear Telvenbattle/ negation/ feytouched you are not able to stand your ground against the big PvP guilds.

Add the (not existing) ELO and you can hope to get qued with them in a group or with 1-2k IL players against them. Many times I got stomped even by players with worse gear, bc my teammates die like flies and I get killed 2-5v1.

BTW, they added tanacity, bc the dmg dealt got so high, that every decent DD would kill another player with one rotation, without tanacity. Even with tanacity some ppl can kill 3k+/ full tanacity players in one rotation or even with one hit.

Unknown · October 2015

This content has been removed.

cesuke · October 2015

Men u want to play LOL or Dota... So remove all u want ... Getting lvl 70 and the T2 armors is really easy... U will be horribly defeated anyways for the PVP guilds... So many ppl complaining about items make me thing why u play a game that is gear based...

urabask · October 2015

cesuke said:
Men u want to play LOL or Dota... So remove all u want ... Getting lvl 70 and the T2 armors is really easy... U will be horribly defeated anyways for the PVP guilds... So many ppl complaining about items make me thing why u play a game that is gear based...

Why aren't you complaining about gear? It's why no one plays PvP.

NW PvP is basically following the pattern all dead games follow. You've got a few special cupcakes left that play and they hate change because they're only really good at the game because no one plays it. When games like this gain players usually you see the top teams get knocked off their pedestal pretty fast. It's especially noticeable in FPSes because the skill gap between good players from comeptitive games and dead games is massive. Although I really doubt NW PvP can ever really gain enough players that they'd attract any actually good players.

On that note, why shouldn't NW PvP take some hints from LoL and Dota? Because they're both massively more successful? Because they're more competitive? Because people actually play them?

cesuke · October 2015

Is other kind of game... And why complain ? Read the forum ppl complain about everything... Will make a vídeo of me owning ppl without enchants

rversant · October 2015

ayroux said:
This issue is EASILY solved and it boggles my mind they havnt done it yet - well now that I reflect on it im NOT suprised. The reason there is such a big PVP gap is because there are idiots that post on these forums. The SAME idiots that think allowing companions in PVP is a good idea. They are the reason.

Why?

Because they need to create LESS items in PVP (total number) which would make the difference between BIS and not BIS smaller.

An example:
Just like companions should not help you in PVP, so it should be with SECONDARY artifacts. Only primary artifacts should affect your stats and be what can be used for PVP. Doing this removes literally about 8-10k worth of stats from the game. Thats a MASSIVE drop in the gear divide alone...

Another example:
PVP Gear. They need to REMOVE tenacity on gear, and give EVERYONE a "base level" of tenacity. RE-allocate the tenacity stat back into the other stats (so the total stats are the same) and then the PVP gear is just ONE option for PVP. Doing this will make sure that players have a chance in PVP and dont get at willed for 30k because they have no tenacity....

I like the idea of removing tenacity and allocating a base level (i'd say 40% tenacity 60% multiplicative arpen resist) . and then boosting the gears other stats. But I dont like the idea of secondary artifact stats not affecting PvP (Probably because I've spent a lot of RP getting my characters mythic, but we can all be selfish sometimes

)

zibadawa · October 2015

rversant said:
I like the idea of removing tenacity and allocating a base level (i'd say 40% tenacity 60% multiplicative arpen resist) . and then boosting the gears other stats. But I dont like the idea of secondary artifact stats not affecting PvP (Probably because I've spent a lot of RP getting my characters mythic, but we can all be selfish sometimes )

How about the game just performs a simple stat normalization across teams. They have a system to artificially level up or down characters (admittedly, not necessarily the one I would want; a level 70 in normal CC is still *way* better than anyone else without twink gear), why not apply a similar idea to player stats in PvP? Say something like, "everyone gets 40k points; your scores are adjusted proportionally if you're not exactly at this", possibly with a few exceptions for exotic stats (ignore +gold bonus, feat boosts, maybe stats that are only ever boosted through artifacts or boons, maybe ignore boons (definitely PvP ones) entirely for this). Then your stats like ArPen and such from your secondaries and uber gear don't matter as much, but you'll still see benefit from things like AP regeneration and Ability score boosts on them.

I guess the issue in a flat rescaling is simply that it might benefit those buffing just a few stats over those who have many stats buffed, if for no other reason than that they come as ancillary benefits from buffing other stats. So there might have to be some extra thought put into it to actually make it feasible. But I'd still like to think that a stat normalization would be sensible.

Hell, take the highest total point score in the match and normalize everyone up to that. Then it's all about skill, the stats you've been emphasizing with your gear, and the ability score boosts and other exotic benefits of certain artifacts. You still get something out of your cool stuff that gives you an advantage, but it's not *insane* (or at least substantially less so). Weapon/Armor/Overload Enchantments need separate nerfs and redesigns all of their own, so I won't go into that.

lemonchill · October 2015

lets face it the original developers of the game did wonderful job designing the dungeons and first pvp match areas. after they were fired and new developers came in everything started go down hill and it doesn't seems like its gonna get better anytime soon. so pls cryptic do us a favor bring the old trusted developers of the game back and let them do thier magic pls

jonkoca · October 2015

Trouble with gear levelling is that some people, like me for instance, only really play neverwinter because of gear progression.

If that was rendered null, I'd probably just stop. I mean, there's no particular story to follow, no particular monsters that are unbeatable, nothing else to work toward...

Except gear. And the only place where gear really shines... Is pvp.

zorothegallade · October 2015

jonkoca said:
Trouble with gear levelling is that some people, like me for instance, only really play neverwinter because of gear progression.

If that was rendered null, I'd probably just stop. I mean, there's no particular story to follow, no particular monsters that are unbeatable, nothing else to work toward...

Except gear. And the only place where gear really shines... Is pvp.

It's already rendered null. When was the last time you felt one step closer to getting the so coveted BiS? That is only made available to guilds that already have a bunch of overpowered members and as such can afford to slay dragons and get the fangs without paying...and even then, you have to grind for guild marks. And RP for artifact weapons, and if you're grinding the Elemental Evil ones you're essentially wasting time because there are NEW artifact weapons who take the top spot and the best you can do with those is use them to regain a part of the RP you dumped on them on the new weapons.
Once you get to 2000+ IL, you don't get the feeling of improving a little each day any more. You're just wasting yourself away in a sisyphean effort, to grind the same stuff over and over until someday you are able to do one of those tiny improvements, such as getting GMOPs for your artifact or bringing ONE of your enchantments from R8 to R9. And in all that you always know you'll be inferior to people who did all that when it was still easy to do, and that even if you take the time and patience to do that, the next content update will probably throw a bone at those who already are BiS and give them something more powerful and harder to obtain, making you even weaker by comparison. As I said, it's like Sisyphus pushing a boulder, only the boulder gets heavier and the mountain gets higher every time.

zibadawa · October 2015

jonkoca said:
Trouble with gear levelling is that some people, like me for instance, only really play neverwinter because of gear progression.

If that was rendered null, I'd probably just stop. I mean, there's no particular story to follow, no particular monsters that are unbeatable, nothing else to work toward...

Except gear. And the only place where gear really shines... Is pvp.

If by "shines" you mean "makes the entire thing boring and/or frustrating as there's maybe a 1 in 4 chance that the teams are competitive with each other" then sure. As-is it's insane. It doesn't have to be insane. You can get nice benefits without completely destroying an entire aspect of the game for anyone who is not a wallet warrior.

urabask · October 2015

cesuke said:
Is other kind of game... And why complain ? Read the forum ppl complain about everything... Will make a vídeo of me owning ppl without enchants

BEHOLD THE POWER OF GOOGLE TRANSLATE.

Seriously, why complain? Are you really that obtuse? Because PvP as it stands is a broken mode built to let people with bad spending habits stroke their epeen? Maybe because 90%+ of the playerbase does not play PvP? Nevermind that a good portion of the people that even bothered playing PvP in its completely broken state are quitting because every mod breaks it even more. But good luck with your circlejerk I guess?

The great PVP item level gap

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