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CHA vs WIS for CC focus build
seregon7
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
in The Library
I want to create an oppressor CW since I really enjoy the CC aspect.
I am thinking of putting extra points into INT and WIS instead of INT and CHA.
I don't mind sacrificing some DPS and crit chance in order to increase the strength of the CC but i'm not really sure this sacrifice is balanced enough, especially once I reach level 70.
Does anyone have an input on this?
Thanks.
I am thinking of putting extra points into INT and WIS instead of INT and CHA.
I don't mind sacrificing some DPS and crit chance in order to increase the strength of the CC but i'm not really sure this sacrifice is balanced enough, especially once I reach level 70.
Does anyone have an input on this?
Thanks.
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Second, getting Control Bonus and Control Resist is a bit harder through gear than Crit. There are a few artifacts and Armor Reinforcement Kits, but that's about it.
With a belt, a potion and campfire you can get 18% To Control Bonus and Resist before gear. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially if you like to PvP. Now that Diminishing Returns have changed, having less Charisma for your CritChance is slightly less of a big deal too.
Actually, if something is overrated, it's the Bonus Damage you get from Intelligence. Go ahead and test it with Advanced Combat Tracker.
Edit: Is your CW SS or MoF?
■ PvE
Empirically speaking, if your main focus is on PvE then you really don't need all that much control in the first place. In my case, I can nearly permacontrol anything unless it is CC-immune in the first place, even mobs with very high resistances in Epic-level PvE content. Of course, nobody appreciates it since there isn't necessity of such amounts of CCs.
Usually in PvE all you need is maybe periodicaly repetition of 1~2 seconds of either root or hold to make it easier for DPS classes to spam AoE attacks. It's not as if it's a life-or-death situation where the survival of the party depends on your ability to mass control and incapacitate the mob group, or a particularly dangerous mob that have troublesome abilities.
So, if this is what yo want to focus on, then going all-in for CCs is a waste unless the outlook of the entire PvE combat dynamics are about to change in the near future.
■ PvP
If it is PvP we're talking about, then things become quite different. The extremely competitive nature of PvP often forces you into a combat situation against enemies with powerful offensive/defensive/retaliatory qualities. This often makes the concept of a "hybridized build" obsolete.
If you want to really be a "controller" in PvP, then basically it comes down to whether your controls are sufficient enough to become a defense/offense mechanic by itself... because, in general, CWs are weak in terms of self-defense, and therefore the favored mode of combat/survival for most is to "kill before killed."
For the majority CW builds, CCs are a means of securing momentary pauses/disruptions to the target's action and ensure a strong, solid, damaging combo to land. However, if you take the CC approach then your damage starts to suffer immediately. What usually happens to people who invest in "some amount" of CCs, is that they get to CC the opponent a bit longer, but it becomes meaningless because eventually, during the gaps in between CCs, the other guy gets you and kills you.
So, if you want to control in PvP, then it becomes a matter of "all-or-nothing". You need your CCs to disrupt the other guy much, much longer than normal, and to be able to repeat it often enough so the 'gaps' in between your CCs are minimal. The only way to achieve is to go all the way, take every possible source of CC bonus you can get your hands on.
So if you're thinking about PvP, then it's either you go all the way with CCs, or not at all... and therefore, yes, in this case WIS becomes one of the most important sources of CC bonus. You begin to feel your CCs are strong and potent enough, and really different from the "momentary pauses" used by DPS builds when you start blowing past 50~60% CC bonus.
(ps) of course, means chit nowadays since a single enchant provides more CC resistances by itself than a dedicated CC-build player can muster. Need around +100% CC bonus to negate the effects of TEB, and this isn't easy to achieve in PvP.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Kantankerous Mage? Wisp? Silph? Control Bonus stat?, Boons? Elven Battle enchant?....
Flat crit % is what is really hard to get.
CHA over WIS all the time, in all the cases and builds
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Yes, the Elven Battle Enchantment gives such a large % of CC resistance that Control Resist as a stat seems less relevant. But why not have CC resist from Wis and rock a Trans Negation (also the other things Wisdom gives) ?
Flat crit % might be really hard to get, but the STAT CritStrike is on a LOT of gear.
I used the word 'gear' for a reason (being mostly into PvP, companions arent really a big thing). But yes, it's true, The Wisp and the Mage are so good, you shouldn't need a lot of Wisdom for Control in PvE.
But I argue against that "Wisdom is a terrible investment" or 'CHA over WIS all the time, in all the cases and builds'
I say it depends on the build.
I used to have an INT/CHA Renegade, but switched to INT/WIS. PvP suddenly became a lot more fun; shorter cds and longer control effects. (Sometimes even being able to hold people with Entangling Force and being able to cast it again before it wore off)
After all, why have CHA when we have/had EotS. Nowadays, a few mods later, the lack of CHA probably hurts a bit more (theres no way to really tell with all the other changes to the game/stats), but with more Control I actually do more DPS in PvP, than before.
Now if I would be a MoF, or focus on PvE, yes, I'd go CHA/INT all the way.
Again, and I feel like I need to put some emphasize on this: I agree that CHA is very very good. All I'm saying is that there is merit to rocking Wisdom.
EDIT: In fact, I'm probably going to switch to MoF with INT/CHA because Crit is a bit more important for a MoF, mechanics-wise. That said, I think that my argument for Wisdom stands.
from 15 CHA to 25 CHA (If you use Lostmauth set) or 27 CHA if you use Valindra, both with 16-12-16 initial stat, the difference is 10% crit or 12% crit. This is 4000 Critical strike or 4800 in stats. You can invest those stats in power for example for a 10%-12% more dmg if you have high crit or keep crit for more damage.
From 15 WIS to 25 WIS, is 10% control bonus and control resist. I can get more than that just with 1 pet, or 1 boon, or 1 artifact (no need of elven battle).
Thats the point. If you invest in WIS you lose (or you are not getting) 10% crit or 10% dmg or 40% armor pen.
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Do you have any stats/information on how Critical Strike and Tenacity/Critical Strike Resistance work?
EDIT: But if it wasn't clear, in answering the OPs question: get one or two of the companions that give % Control Bonus (Mage/Wisp) and you won't need the Wisdom for Control in PvE
In PvE the economics of stat investment is important, and therefore investment into WIS is seemingly a waste. An assortment of companions can easily buff up your controls. In PvP, where you don't get to increase CC bonus easily by just buying a companion token off the market, sources of CC bonus are limited, while the need to go "all the way" hangs heavy, and therefore, WIS becomes a quite important source.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I play both PVP & PVE, depends on the mood I'm in.
A big problem I have in PVP is that there are a lot of players who almost instantly break free out of my CC, but I guess that the amount of CC bonus I'll need to get to overcome that is ludicrous.
In PVE I usually get by O.K. with the mobs, and the bosses are immune to CC anyhow.
Thank you very much for the great info!
So this is the real deal when it comes to playing a Controller in PvP = the investment you need to make just to have the CCs functioning at default/base levels, already requires a huge sacrifice in terms of DPS.
The only option you have left, is to beef up your CCs upto the levels at which point begins to compensate for the loss of your DPS -- near-perma.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
pve is easy mode.
it is only worth discussing pvp...
dps or gtfo.
im BIS halfling with valindras so max ctrl..... its worthless.
ill be lostmauth next 2 x rp. watch out....
It doesn't matter if my attacks do only 9k damage while the other guy does 30k with the same attack. If my CCs allow me to cast my attack 4 times as more often than the other guy's, ultimately I have higher DPS.
Against people unprepared in CC resists or breakers, then it becomes a very easy permasituation. Doesn't matter if you have 20k power or even 200k. Ultimately, if you don't have a chance to fire off anything, then your DPS = 0.
So it's simply a matter of whether your control strength is strong enough to pull that off, and while difficult, it is possible and certainly viable. I'm not about to object to the method of just Disintegrating everything in your path, but don't go telling anyone that's the only possible method of fighting out there, because it's not.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'