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Need Minimum Tenacity Requirements to enter PvP
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Recent months have been tough, especially since with my pet project to study overlooked/underrated builds. This naturally means 2~3 new characters I've built, which also means a lot of low-level PvP.
One thing for certain, I've always thought, and confirmed to my heart's content, is that this BALANCE PROBLEM is not only because of certain guilds, or certain powers, or certain classes and that stuff. This is only one side of the coin.
There is a very important, other side of the coin.
Imagine that you're a player of certain sport. The federation, or organization that manages the sport has every duty to try and make the playing-ground as even as possible, since an imbalanced, one-sided game will just lose all the crowd and ultimately lead to failure. However, on a seperate note, as much, a player of that certain sport as every bit as much the responsibility to both himself, and to the sport he is playing, to become better, more competitive, and be prepared, trained and ready for the match.
When someone enters the arena, playing field without the proper equipment, without proper training, then frankly speaking this is very unprofessional and plain unacceptable. IMO this is the "other side of the coin" which, so many people in this game's PvP are plain not acknowledging. There's never a problem with just one side. When something is wrong there are a multitude of smaller problems associated with it, and this is one of them:
PEOPLE JUST DON'T GIVE A SHEET ABOUT THE MOST BASIC OF SELF-PREPARATION REQUIREDE TO BE ABLE TO PVP
Let's be frank here. It's easy to tell the difference whether it's true or not, when someone says "I'd have won if I had the same gear."
Usually, this has a ring of truth when an already experienced players is making an alt character. Also, any experienced PvPer knows when they see someone fight, how he moves, what power he uses, how fast he reacts etc. etc.. we can almost instantly tell whether this guy's good or not. I know I can, I know a lot of you reading this can. But instances like this are few and far between. In 99% of the cases when I see someone saying something like this, I feel the urge to question the guy the following:
In the past few months, I've been practically HAUNTED by how terribly people are equipped in PvP, and especially low-level PvP. Even at the last bracket before lv70, literally there's this HORDE of people who record a big, flat "0" in their Tenacity numbers. Like said, I don't expect people to be overgeared like some people, having r12 enchants and Transcendent stuff when everybody is under lv70. But that doesn't mean everybody should be walking around practically naked.
There is literally a large stash of low-level PvP gear in the auction house. In most cases these PvP gear are also BiS or close to BiS at that level range, and ultimately beneficial in many ways, especially concerning +HP bonuses. They are usually very cheap, and in most cases under 10k AD for rare(blue) gear. There is absolutely NO excuse when someone walks into PvP with 0 Tenacity. It's very easy to get with minimal AD invesment... and while this kind of gear alone will not save someone from the best-geared people, it still goes a LONG way with helping you even the grounds at least upto average performance.
When you walk around in PvP with 0 Tenacity, it is the same thing as EVERYONE hitting 40% stronger, 40% tougher, and 40% more CC resistance. Even in lowbie levels this figure is something around 35~37% and is a SIGNIFICANT difference. Heck, in most cases the reason you are dying in 2-shot attacks is not because some class is overpowered, but because YOU'RE BASICALLY A HUMAN-SHAPED PUDDING WALKING AROUND
Another surprising fact?
Most of those people don't even care. Plenty of times I tried to give advice when they complain how the game is imbalanced. From what I observe mostly, the people playing in low-level PvP don't even play well enough to show any real differences or imbalances in class performance. Yes, there is a balance problem when someone with r12 enchants walk into lv50 PvP, but how do you explain the pure one-sided carnage when there aren't those people around? Even the team composition is similar in many cases, and yet, people literally melt in seconds. Since the so-called "tanks" melt in seconds, naturally more fragile classes which need those meat-shields also have usually no chance at all.
People are snuffed like flies, and they complain about it, and yet nobody wants to make even the most basic, average preparation such as Tenacity. They don't really try anything. They just walk in naked, and expect to win.
...
Well, that got me thinking.
We have IL restrictions for dungeons. When people PvE, a certain amount of performance is expected, and these expectations manifest as minimum IL requirements.
Then why not the same thing for PvP brackets?
This is really for the good of everyone. If people are so dumb, careless, and irresponsible as to be walking around naked in PvP (and subsequentially, although not intentionally) trolling other people who do want to have fun PvPing, then why should we let this trend continue?
THIS IS NOT "ELITISM" OR ANYTHING! As a matter of fact its got nothing to do with elitist. Far from it, actually. People should call it "AVERAGISM" or something, because for the good of everyone involved in PvP, people being required to have at-least average level of preparation for PvP can only do good to the PvP of this game, than harm.
It FORCES people to get at least the most basic, lowest-tier PvP gear -- this proliferates at least the "basic" level of performance, thus promoting at least 'basic' levels of performance for everyone and thus helping with a slightly more balanced game.
If anything, this alone would go a long way into improving the QOL for people wanting to play PvP in lower levels... which means, things are that BAD there. Yes, the "twinks" with transcendent stuff and r10~r12 stuff in low-level PvP are a problem and they break the PvP... but just as much, the carelessness, laziness, unwilling to learn and change, the bad attitudes of the players are also a problem, and this is not just bad for them. It makes everyone who is more sincere about PvP a victim to those "trolls", EVERYTIME.
IMPLEMENT A MINIMUM TENACITY REQUIREMENT FOR EACH PVP BRACKETS, PLEASE.
One thing for certain, I've always thought, and confirmed to my heart's content, is that this BALANCE PROBLEM is not only because of certain guilds, or certain powers, or certain classes and that stuff. This is only one side of the coin.
There is a very important, other side of the coin.
Imagine that you're a player of certain sport. The federation, or organization that manages the sport has every duty to try and make the playing-ground as even as possible, since an imbalanced, one-sided game will just lose all the crowd and ultimately lead to failure. However, on a seperate note, as much, a player of that certain sport as every bit as much the responsibility to both himself, and to the sport he is playing, to become better, more competitive, and be prepared, trained and ready for the match.
When someone enters the arena, playing field without the proper equipment, without proper training, then frankly speaking this is very unprofessional and plain unacceptable. IMO this is the "other side of the coin" which, so many people in this game's PvP are plain not acknowledging. There's never a problem with just one side. When something is wrong there are a multitude of smaller problems associated with it, and this is one of them:
PEOPLE JUST DON'T GIVE A SHEET ABOUT THE MOST BASIC OF SELF-PREPARATION REQUIREDE TO BE ABLE TO PVP
Let's be frank here. It's easy to tell the difference whether it's true or not, when someone says "I'd have won if I had the same gear."
Usually, this has a ring of truth when an already experienced players is making an alt character. Also, any experienced PvPer knows when they see someone fight, how he moves, what power he uses, how fast he reacts etc. etc.. we can almost instantly tell whether this guy's good or not. I know I can, I know a lot of you reading this can. But instances like this are few and far between. In 99% of the cases when I see someone saying something like this, I feel the urge to question the guy the following:
"Look here, friend. I'm a veteran of PvP.
By the way how you're playing I can tell that you don't have much experience. What's worse, you're like a soldier walking into a battlefield naked. I don't expect everyone to be as well equipped as serious PvPers like us, but in your case, your gear level isn't even average.
I find it extremely hard to believe, that someone -- whether by lack of knowledge, or just carelessness -- who doesn't even go through the most basic of efforts like getting adequate basic PvP gear, can claim that he would be able to defeat someone if he had better gear. Those "someone"s happen to be serious PvPers who arm themselves to the teeth, practice and play regularly, and make sure that they are prepared for battle. You, on the other hand, don't give a sheet about even the most basic of preparation.
You expect me to believe that your word has any meaning?"
In the past few months, I've been practically HAUNTED by how terribly people are equipped in PvP, and especially low-level PvP. Even at the last bracket before lv70, literally there's this HORDE of people who record a big, flat "0" in their Tenacity numbers. Like said, I don't expect people to be overgeared like some people, having r12 enchants and Transcendent stuff when everybody is under lv70. But that doesn't mean everybody should be walking around practically naked.
There is literally a large stash of low-level PvP gear in the auction house. In most cases these PvP gear are also BiS or close to BiS at that level range, and ultimately beneficial in many ways, especially concerning +HP bonuses. They are usually very cheap, and in most cases under 10k AD for rare(blue) gear. There is absolutely NO excuse when someone walks into PvP with 0 Tenacity. It's very easy to get with minimal AD invesment... and while this kind of gear alone will not save someone from the best-geared people, it still goes a LONG way with helping you even the grounds at least upto average performance.
When you walk around in PvP with 0 Tenacity, it is the same thing as EVERYONE hitting 40% stronger, 40% tougher, and 40% more CC resistance. Even in lowbie levels this figure is something around 35~37% and is a SIGNIFICANT difference. Heck, in most cases the reason you are dying in 2-shot attacks is not because some class is overpowered, but because YOU'RE BASICALLY A HUMAN-SHAPED PUDDING WALKING AROUND
Another surprising fact?
Most of those people don't even care. Plenty of times I tried to give advice when they complain how the game is imbalanced. From what I observe mostly, the people playing in low-level PvP don't even play well enough to show any real differences or imbalances in class performance. Yes, there is a balance problem when someone with r12 enchants walk into lv50 PvP, but how do you explain the pure one-sided carnage when there aren't those people around? Even the team composition is similar in many cases, and yet, people literally melt in seconds. Since the so-called "tanks" melt in seconds, naturally more fragile classes which need those meat-shields also have usually no chance at all.
People are snuffed like flies, and they complain about it, and yet nobody wants to make even the most basic, average preparation such as Tenacity. They don't really try anything. They just walk in naked, and expect to win.
...
Well, that got me thinking.
We have IL restrictions for dungeons. When people PvE, a certain amount of performance is expected, and these expectations manifest as minimum IL requirements.
Then why not the same thing for PvP brackets?
This is really for the good of everyone. If people are so dumb, careless, and irresponsible as to be walking around naked in PvP (and subsequentially, although not intentionally) trolling other people who do want to have fun PvPing, then why should we let this trend continue?
THIS IS NOT "ELITISM" OR ANYTHING! As a matter of fact its got nothing to do with elitist. Far from it, actually. People should call it "AVERAGISM" or something, because for the good of everyone involved in PvP, people being required to have at-least average level of preparation for PvP can only do good to the PvP of this game, than harm.
It FORCES people to get at least the most basic, lowest-tier PvP gear -- this proliferates at least the "basic" level of performance, thus promoting at least 'basic' levels of performance for everyone and thus helping with a slightly more balanced game.
If anything, this alone would go a long way into improving the QOL for people wanting to play PvP in lower levels... which means, things are that BAD there. Yes, the "twinks" with transcendent stuff and r10~r12 stuff in low-level PvP are a problem and they break the PvP... but just as much, the carelessness, laziness, unwilling to learn and change, the bad attitudes of the players are also a problem, and this is not just bad for them. It makes everyone who is more sincere about PvP a victim to those "trolls", EVERYTIME.
IMPLEMENT A MINIMUM TENACITY REQUIREMENT FOR EACH PVP BRACKETS, PLEASE.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
Comments
1. People are lazy. We wait for good things to come on a silver platter. It takes 5 minutes and 5-10K AD to get geared with tenacity blues, but that is 5 more minutes longer and 10K AD more expensive for some who just don't care.
2. Said players are toxic. Especially the ones that trash talk without experience to back it up.
Factor these points, and implement OPs proposed changes, the population of PvP will drop to a dead number.
Edit: Spelllllllllleeeeng :<
...sometimes I forget what a "Dilbert World" we live in...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A RPG is about progression. If everything is handed to you, there is no reason to play the game. However, I also dislike lazy folks that jump in lvl 70 PvP queue with lvl 10 green gears and hope other guys will carry them. I would say this is solely the fault of game designers. It is clearly that they put almost zero afford to create a solid PvP system at the beginning, which leads to so many problems that themselves could not fix later.
It is so easily to put gear score/item lvl/tenacity tiers for PvP as they do for PvE dungeons. Afraid of people gaming the tier system? They can just simply disable ability to swap gears in PvP maps. It is a common sense that everyone can think of and there are already countless suggest threads with the same ideas for PvP. Strange enough, they never try to implement the suggested ideas.
Think of it like this. You are level 50. You have full PVP gear. You meet someone with Slayer and Dragon/Mully weapon set. They are sporting r12 rads with T.tranq and if a tank R12 tenes you are sporting pvp main/off. They one shot you. You cry but I was wearing pvp gear. Means JACK. Enchants trump PVP gear before level 60. You even claiming that shows you have never low leveled PVP I however do low level PVP a lot of time even as a group we will create char level together and then start pvping all decked out. Why? Because it is fun to pwn. Then we either delete the char do it again or just keep the char for professions invoking.
Many a times I have pvped with vamp trolls. Why because my healers are the bomb. Even after the great nerf I created the best healers. All without worrying about pvp gear. Low level twink guilds loved having me on there side. As a result I have about 5 clerics sitting at level 60 lol. Not yet ready to level them to 70. So I know PVP especially low level pvp.
The problem is people do not think. I am leveling my OP. I easily tank the whole team many of times. They SEE they can not kill me. Yet I have there whole team on one base trying to kill me. My team comes to help.. I tell them GTFO and let them be HAMSTER but do not act like them. There is 2 other bases to worry about. That is one problem I noticed.
Another problem I noticed is more than once I have watched TR's kill themselves without me even touching them all due to them thinking they can kill me.. They see they are not hurting me but are hurting themselves yet attack me anyway... They end up dying and I am sitting here scratching my head like WTF why did he not say hey my life is low I better go run to a health pot. Nope the idiots attack me till they are dead. This is 100 percent a TR problem. GWF's make it a habbit to run when they are low on health. GWF's guard and back away from me slowly.
I guess my thing is maybe we would not have soo many problems if we got rid of the TR's class. Obviously it is attracting the worlds most idiotic players. No joke here this past week on my low level OP I have scratched my head more than once saying WTF is going on with people who chose this class.
Here is my thought... WHY?
We discussed a level system for PvP last night in guild chat because this can be just as painful to a team as competing against a premade. Which I also did a few times... <cough> Expresso anyone <cough>
+1
I do ok...Sometimes I'll get like 23/1 KDR in one match but more often than not its like 14/5, never gotten 35/0 like I've seen some peeps get
I play a WK/sabo build, with 1900 item level.
I wanna get scavengers set but on AH they are expensive, and I don't know where it comes from anymore, thought it was pvp vendors...So through GG PVP I got all skulker set, but they have no tenacity...The +5% dmg and longer stealth meter is nice though.
Is tenacity worth the bonuses you get from T1/T2 sets before 70? I mean with the captains/master assassin set I use gives 900 power...I don't have problems killing most classes, I can take on an OP that isn't well equipped or doesn't know how to play (I'll usually save my daily to burst them though, otherwise I come back later).
3K IL WK Sabo TR
Trying to suck less @ pvp near you
Dude you are doing fine. Even before level 70 I would not worry too much about Tenacity and more about saving up for better gear. You are helping your team clearing nodes. The thread starter was not as experienced in low level pvp as he claims he is. All the way up to level 60 you still see people doing okay in PVP with white and green gear with 0 tenacity. Do they get steam rolled by a pre-made enchant team? Yep but normally you are not going to run into that too much. If you do run into it you will most likely as soon as you reque hit the same premade again so it is best just to wait a half hour to an hour unless there is a lot of ques going on.
The leveling bracket I am going to say this again as it needs to be repeated is 100 percent based on enchants. I only need my slayer set dragon ring and either bone/mully main/off and my leveling pants and shirt as there stats match my level and nothing else and still win. With ZERO tenacity. So go right on ahead and do what is working for you. You are not doing bad and even WITH the highest tenacity you can get you are not going to go 35-0 without the enchants to make it happen. They use enchants to carry those insane numbers and literally one shot people.
So in short man just enjoy yourself and learn your class and most of all have fun. That is what the leveling bracket is all about. Learning your class and having fun. It is not about being micro competitive unless you want it to be. There is a few guilds who make it there goal to be ultra competitive in lower brackets but honestly it is not that many 1 percent. However if you want to make leveling your game and be competitive on that you have a lot of investment to do.
Ah yes. I've noticed how the people in that level think that they are doing OK. They also think it's a good idea to go to the nearest home-node from the start of the match, thinkit's good skill for a TR to go chasing people all the time and have a sky-high number of kills. They also think it's a good idea for 3~4 people to horde back to the home node everytime a single Paly or TR is trolling there, and they also think it's a good idea for people to stand up at the pillars all the time to shoot below.
Were if reality the same as how we 'think'...LOL. In reality, as disturbing as this may sound, just thinking about how you're doing great hardly qualifies for actually doing great.
You're confusing overboard enchants with basic tenacity.
Of course, the most obvious and painful scene to look at would be the cocky but ego-snubbed player ranting about how the other guys are all 'snobs' or 'p2w' or 'wallet warriors', when in reality, the most common and frequent reason he's snuffed out in 2 hits is not because someone's using transcendent vorpal on him, but rather, he's got 0 DR bonus, 0 Armpen Resist bonus, 0 CC resist bonus and 0 Crit resist bonus.
People think they do fine with 0 tenacity, do fine only upto against the same, unequipped, clueless individuals. That's of course, admittedly, a testament by itself to just how much people are clueless in those lowerlevels -- which, although no disrespect was intended, pretty much applies the same with your views on how PvP is.
(But then again, those who've waded in that abysmal cesspool of perpetual low skill and understanding might not find anything wrong with it)
There's nothing microcompetitive about getting the basic tenacity gear, nor does it fall under "1%" anything. The very fact that you're viewing the most basic of tenacity gear as if its some sort of wallet-warrior/twink fashion item, just goes so far as to prove how little you understand its effects and importance as BASIC equipment.
In most cases right upto level 65 these tenacity gear can be acquired in the AH under 5k AD per piece. From lv65 they sell lv65 Battlefield gear in the T&B which is BiS at that level (unless you want to do stupid stuff like walk around in profound gear with 0 HP bonuses and 26k HP) and still can be acquired with relatively low amount of glory points.
The only investment required to be prepared at the BASIC level, is time and patience, and small amounts of ADs which can be covered by doing 2~3 daily quests per day.
Like said, nobody expects everyone to be geared and skilled up to their own level. But one does expect someone entering PvP to be basically prepared for it. What you are doing, is making up false excuses for entering a battlefield butt-naked, by saying that you "haven't got any money to buy a F-22".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
DUDE it is a leveling BRACKET. What do you not understand? It is people learning there character. End Game PVP I would 100 percent agree with you. Right now though you just sound like some elitist. Fact of the matter is you can wear PVP up items up to 65. You will meet someone like me who blow your face off because I have the enchants that are required for me to do so. I rarely use PVP gear because I do not have to. I still win way more than lose and normally people can not cut through my Health faster than I can. So come down off your high horse and realize it is a LEVELING BRACKET. People are trying to learn there character and save up for end game PVP.
Was that the purpose of this thread? To try to look like a Elitist? Congrats it worked. You still know jack about low level PVP. So everyone of your opinions are null and void. When you play through about 50 Characters to level 60 doing nothing but PVP come talk to me. Till then your opinions are a rantings of someone seeking attention.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Hehe yeah do see a lot of that. TBH in most dom games in the 60-69 bracket I'm in I just go for node 2. I don't really hunt for players, I'm either holding or capturing. I seldom get into 1v1s at all, its always 1v2-3 for some reason (any more I well, run, not good enough to take on 4-5 players lol), I take out squishies and live long enough for reinforcements to take over the rest. I use a low tier soulforged enchant and traded an artifact I got from a lockbox for my vorpal, seems to work well.
What I hate is being the only person on node 2, while all 4 go for home node haha...And the other team sends 1 to home and 4 to node 2. It becomes a game where its like "how fast can I burst down the nearest squishy and run and get them to chase me" lol...
Usually though when I see my side with little or no "glowies" (I mean effects from weapon/armor enchants), I automatically assume we are going to lose unless the other team is just as ill equipped.
I would bet they probably don't have pvp gear either, but I don't really bother to look, busy trying to figure out how to win in an under equipped team, most of the time this means I'm trolling enemy's home node.
Thankfully don't really run into premades in 60-69 bracket, not looking forward to it in 70s TBH.
I think part of the problem is just the players not well informed, in lower brackets I didn't really see much tenacity gear till lv40ish (when it was double xp week and I PVE to lv60 without pvp at all) and everyone is like "go power>armpen>crit" for TR, tenacity is not even in the list, and well I listened. I'm guilty of not gearing for tenacity as well, don't really understand how much tenacity can help in PVP...So I'm going to start doing experiments with blue pvp gear...
This is the bracket like vladious said I'm really learning about my class. Sure I have the mechanics down, but to be able to employ it in different situations is taking a lot of time to master, not to mention the discipline that needs to be honed with it, and being able to leverage that with pugs is harsh :P Getting soulforged and greater vorpal really improved survivability and damage for me by a lot, now its time to figure out how much tenacity is going to help.
Yes I'm clueless, please pardon my ignorance...
3K IL WK Sabo TR
Trying to suck less @ pvp near you
Bro do not worry about it. Keep learning your char. It is 100 percent more important. Also learn strategies. A good TR can make a team. You just have to learn the strategies. With the state of TR right now and the game Tenacity is not going to be a big help at your level.
TBH as a TR at your level you should rely on your wit as defense and Tenacity. Start thinking in split seconds and second guessing your target. If you rely on a crutch right now like T.Neg or Tenacity once it gets nerfed you will forever be lost.
I would 100 percent rather a TR on my team that knew his roll and strategy and knew how to work as a team to win then a TR geared in PVP gear but was dumber than a box of rocks who though you won by killing people off of nodes and never ever capped or kept a team from capping a node.
That is the facts. All this other HAMSTER is just that HAMSTER. The Op is confusing end game play with leveling bracket. While to be honest even at end bracket if a TR is good he is good and Tenacity is not going to effect him being good. Yes most likely a good TR WILL have tenacity because most likely a god TR has the leisure of spending more time at end game then a new TR. Think about it like this a good TR creates a new TR in the leveling bracket he could almost be nude (exageration but you get the point) and still be a deciding factor in most matches. As he knows his chat knows the class knows his roll and knows strategies to win.
That is it. All this other nonsense is just nonsense. I said it before and will say it again end game I will agree leveling bracket it is not needed at all. I just got out of a match with a OP in the 20's bracket who did not even have rings or neck slots yet still knew what was what and still performed really well. It is what it is. Would tenacity gear helped the OP perform any better? Maybe that extra 2 percent MIGHT have helped but who cares. She did well enough. We won. No one on our team died.
- what about a lvl..30? he could nt enter on pvp because he wont have tenacity.
- actually, to have tenacity gears, you need glory, to have glory, you must do pvp.
So another solution would be different q.
- q for people WITHOUT tenacity ( and people WITH pvp gears would not be allowed to sign in)
- q for people WITH tenacity ( and people WITHOUT pvp gears would not be allowed to enter in)
*sigh* look the very very very minute amount of tenacity you receive at level 10-19 bracket 20-29 and 30-39 bracket is sooo small it is not going to help you one bit. You are still going to get near one shotted. Even without buffs most squishes die to Lashing dazed combo.
Now I can understand the argument if Tenacity scaled better and actually gave you more DR in PVP at lower levels which is REALLY needed. Yet it does not. You are still gonna get near one shotted by people with enchants. You are still going to get controlled to death by a group of GFs.
So in this situation I would say Give more Tenacity on PVP gear at lower levels and you might have a good argument. Otherwise a separate que is not going to help.