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Wondering how to deal with TR's and OP's as a CW
aleirusicewind
Member Posts: 8 Arc User
Hello, I was just wondering how to fight a Trickster Rogue or Oathbound Paladin as a Control Wizard. I've had a hard time with TR's stealth, their power Impossible To Catch, and the daily Shocking Execution, combined they leave me unable to trade hits, and I end up just hoping I dodge at the right time because the attacks come from stealth.
I have had trouble with Paladins as their shield makes them cc immune, and I can't break through their temp hp, especially when combined with their daily that gives them and their teammates huge damage mitigation. This results in them slowly whittling me down without me being able to figure out how to harm them
Just to clarify, I'm not asking for any buffs or nerfs, or calling anything overpowered, just wondering how to deal with these things, and if it's a gear or skill problem.
I have had trouble with Paladins as their shield makes them cc immune, and I can't break through their temp hp, especially when combined with their daily that gives them and their teammates huge damage mitigation. This results in them slowly whittling me down without me being able to figure out how to harm them
Just to clarify, I'm not asking for any buffs or nerfs, or calling anything overpowered, just wondering how to deal with these things, and if it's a gear or skill problem.
Post edited by aleirusicewind on
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Those were, in the following order; (1) DoTs, (2) CCs, (3) AoEs.
Also, the most difficult CW players in my experience were all of those who; (1) ...were very aggressive in trying to track you down, with very slippery teleport movement, (2) ...never shows their backside even when under attack, always tries to face you and retaliate, (3) ...doesn't panic, and instead of frantically teleporting into any random direction to run, instead, calmly makes assessment of the situation to see which attacks he can facetank and retaliate, which attacks he can simply move out of from, and which attacks that really need teleportation.
So, upon that I built my CW, instead of the Spellstorm I chose the MoF, and then went Oppressor. I won't list down the reasons unless asked, because that would go too deep into the build, but basically, as of current my opinion as both an old-timer TR, as well as a CW, is that the following are the best ways to flush a TR out:
I can hear some of you laughing but yes, my choice powers are:
Tab-Conduit of Ice: while lasts short, it is still a DoT, and therefore when applied before the TR goes into stealth, somewhat contributes to shortening their stealth time. Also, CoI produces audible queues (the icy wind blowing sound) when TRs are close. The third reason is that it CoI is not a power that is effected by deflect or CC-immunity. When you fire, it lands, and constantly applies chill stacks and thus slows the TRs down, as well as keep a high number of chill stacks up for as long as possible. Unlike Ray of Frost which you have to maintain, and generally has a bit slow and fixed time required to apply each consecutive stacks, when you fire off Tab-CoI it will keep running unless the TR receives a total immunity from stuff like Divine Protector.
EF: pretty much self explanatory
Shield: also self explanatory
Icy Terrains: with constant application and reapplication of CoI, the TR is effected by chill stacks even if you move around and not fire RoF. Whenever a TR steps on IcyT for any length of time he can almost immediately become frozen, and shattered, forcing him to use up ITC at odd, unexpected timing. It is a powerful form of defense especially if the TR you're facing constantly needs to close in and try for stuff like Smokebomb or Dazing Strike.
RoF at-will: self explanatory
Scorching Burst: The reason why I chose MoF -- Scorching Burst is an instant cast power that lands immediately as you press the button. It's similar to storm pillar but much stronger in damage, applies a smolder effect as well, and with enough crazy speed of tapping you can attack about twice per second. Instead of relying on encounters to land attacks, which has a high chance of failing due to constant dodges and deflects (which, if it fails then you have to wait until it recharges), I've chosen the Scorching Burst tapping as a mode of attack which does only small bits of damage, but constantly deals a DoT, and the best of all -- when you use T.Bilethorn with Scorching Burst tapping, every single bit of Scorching attack you spammed, the moment the TR goes into stealth, will all proc additional poison damage in a cascade of attacks that helps with destealthing and slows the target down.
For feats, IMO Icy Veins is an absolute must in catching TRs, because it doesn't matter if you hit the attack or it is dodged. The damage may be averted but the effect still is applied. You try chase the TR around and land whatever fast-activating encounter within a melee range and that's instant 5-stacks of chill. As I've explained above the TR already has chill-stacking CoI constantly applied to it. Even if the TR is within stealth, you try chase him around, he briefly moves past you, you catch a glimpse and fire stuff like RoF for even a split second and bam, he's frozen. He's forced to use ITC, then you reapply Tab-CoI, lay down Icy Terrain, keep spamming Scorching Burst to keep DoTs up, and then the next time his stealth is out he doesn't have any ITC for maybe like the following 10 seconds. He may try to dodge, but when chill stacks are already up it doesn't matter if he dodges. You keep the RoF on him and he's frozen, again.
It's at that point you apply EF at a timely manner to extend the hold from your freeze as long as possible... and then spam Scorching Burst taps again to deal as much as micro damage as possible to damage him, since you don't have any big attacks. In a 1v1 situation you've already sacrificed a lot of damage for this so the best you can do is probably stale-mate him and force him to run, but if you have even one real DPS with you, then the TR's usually toast.
I've found this working well in many cases, and I think it's probably the closest thing to a "theoretical counter" to a TR, unlike how the other 'solutions for CWs' usually require you to have premade-level-top-player-skill level and/or premade-level-player-equipment-advantage over the TR you're fighting.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
PS. Kweassa....CoI is just horrible vs TRs with negation- they have perma 10 stack of Negation so your damage is low... Besides TR with Elven battle enchant is just impossible to kill by any CW.
PS...from me- 2 options- if you have spell twisting like me:
tab- shield
chill strike- fast casting, it often hit even after dodge
icy rays- undodgeable, sometimes you can "mark" TR in stealth and can follow his movement
desintegrate- for damage
Option 2, with icy veins:
same, but:
in place of chill i will put icy terrain, i was trying with steal time, and even if you take into account the fact that ST can show you where is actually TR...casting time of this spell is just ridiculous long and low dps so it isn't best solution. It can work if you are 2 vs 1 against TR and your friend can fast dps TR, and you can make him to dodge thanks to ST.
Passives:
Stormspell- for dps
Eye of The Storm/ chilling presence- i recomend Eots especialy against TR with EB enchantment becouse you can't put chill stacks on TR and thats just suck. If you meet TR with negation you can try both, anyway you have no chance vs TR- he was worse enemy for CW from the beginnig this game
Thanks for the advice, I've never played MoF, thinking maybe I should try it out. My question, though, is how do you kill/even stalemate an equally geared rogue? The skill list seems a little lacking in damage, unless I'm missing something, and rogue burst hits extremely hard.
obsydian666
Thanks for the advice, however I have a question -
Why chilling presence over storm spell? It seems to synergize extremely well with eye of the storm, unless I'm forgetting about something.
Question for both of you:
How do you deal with the TR's that use Impossible to Catch, go into stealth, then hit you with something like Shocking Execution - is there any way to know it's coming?
In addition, how do you stop them from engaging when Impossible to Catch is active, then disengaging when it ends, stealthing off, and coming back again after a few seconds when it's off cooldown again?
Well, mostly agreed, except I've basically given up the fantasy that I'm a super top-dog of a player so I can kill everything myself. Hence most of the tactics I've experimented/developed aligns itself with the thought of school that emphasizes the concept of hard-core team play -- as in, gimping certain aspects of your class to become a totally specialized expert in another, which, incidentally, is something that may bring down the "unkillables". Hence Oppressor, hence giving up damage, hence build/tactics that emphasize on potent CCs and quick recharges.
Like, for example, my CW gravitates toward "winning tactics", which the traditional, proud, fancy CW community would probably not approve... like the "perma-repel", in which case, if there's a particularly troublesome DC I would repel him from the node to the some obscure corner of the map by rotating repel-stun/hold-freeze, each encounter under 5 second recharge with Orbosition/ArcPresence as class features... so basically I 'drive' him from one point to the other side of the world by keep rotating it... which at that point the DC will probably screaming murder at his friends with his voicechat and one of its bodyguard DPS guy will intervene, so I'm dead.
But you can bet the DC won't be anywhere near any node to help anyone out for a long, long time. No "real" CW player will ever do something like this. It's not in their style. They want to go the path of destruction and nuking, and they'd want to prove what superior build and damage they have by trying to nuke the DC. Well, not me. No such pride. I do what seems more effective... and its a lot more interesting, too.
In that sense I can actually 'handle' a lot of classes for a very lengthy, prolonged time with my build, and the lord knows some quite nice trapper players have met me in GG a few times in the last month, and probably would have been surprised to find that instead of them permastunning me, I permastun them back.
(Well ofc, my gear's not BiS range yet, so my current level of opponents would be suitable in around 2.5 ~ 3.5k range, so if I actually meet the 4k+ guys then that's just no contest...)
...
That's the spirit of logic the above example is, I think.
Which would be more serious problem for you when you fight a TR? (A) them being +30% more tougher, or (b) them being INVISIBLE?
Negation, frankly, not too much problem. As long as I can pull them off stealth much more often, and land surprisingly frequent amount of CCs, somebody is bound to come to help me out. (or... they don't, and I die... and well...)
But TEB... yeah. That one. Once there's a TEB user around then yes, nothing works on him. It's simply a death sentence.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As for TR, you might not see them, but you can still hear the sound of their abilities before they hit you. Use this to dodge in right time. Assuming both of you got similar gear you should be able to soak a lot of dmg with shield on TAB and perfect (or better) Negation. You can also use some artifact with healing over time.
TR: Icy Terrain + Icy Veins
Tactics:
Haven't actually used Repel much, will give it another shot, thanks!
Thanks for the advice, and I hadn't even thought about poking stick, which honestly sounds pretty strong. One question, though - how do you deal with rogues who just stay at range and throw knives when you Icy Terrain, or just Impossible To Catch and charge in before retreating when it wears off?
Thanks to both of you for the advice about hearing TR abilities, was previously unaware of that - I'll make sure to listen for them.
ha
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best joke ive read this day
while about nothing can kill similarly geared pala 1v1(onless he derps hard or goes afk), cw is one of the easiest class to play against one(along with DC and another pala) - he will never kill you 1v1 as long as you are rene and have similar gear level, he will take about 3 days to get you to half hp(at best) through shield, then u cast one oppressing and are at full hp from capstone
most common mistake ppl make against pala is they try to kill them, you dont kill pala 1v1, you stall him til you can get GF/CW/TR/Good HR there and then 2v1 him
TR's Shocking Execution can be heard, yes, but good TRs will wait when you are out of teleports or stun you before using this daily. Also they can cancel the daily even if you heard the sound, by pressing shift. So this is also a matter of luck and sixth sense
Additionally, if a Paladin is running Relentless Avenger, it means he's not fully dedicated to survival. When you get better geared, you will be much more likely to kill those Paladins.
If you feel useless, it's either due to low gear or/and you focus too much on CC. CW's who are high in the NLC leaderboards are mostly dps CW, they have very good k/d/a ratios.
I don't have much trouble with TRs unless they severely out gear me. Just dodge when you hear the noise for SE, dodge when you hear the noise for smoke bomb, and keep moving around the point in a circular direction half way between the center and the edge the same way the TR is rotating and occasionally teleport. When you see the TR unload on him, don't bother with entangle, the animation is too long, it does no damage, and will probably just be deflected or dodged anyways. Slot skills that fire off quickly like ray of frost, enfeeble, repel, and disentigrate, and don't blow all your CDs when you see "immune" over the head of the TR.
TR? Lol. Pray to gods and stay at campfire!
Tab shield, Conduit+chill might help but not really a big chance against skilled TRs on 1 on 1.
He deflect almost any CC with that high deflect severity.
TRs: CC is wasted most of the time bc of ITC and dodges, so I use shield on tab, IT, COI and desintegrate. If I can apply COI at the end of his ITC and it crits, he will be visible, before his ITCs CD is done. Freeze, desintegrate and hope for another crit. It kills bad/ mediocre TRs. Good TRs, you most likely will die.
BC I switch my setup depending on my role, I 'LOVE' it, if the enemy rotates.^^ Even better, if you keep a point clean, killing their TR or CW, if he shows up and your teams GWF shows up and drops a 'leave' in party chat. BC he did not leave, I left. I wont comment on his gear or skills, just as a fact, GWF is not the best class for a 1v1 against TRs/ CWs (exept some BIS GWFs), so the point went from 50% blue/ 50% contested to 90% contested/ 10% red. Got to love this self proclaimed pros.
Last but not least, if the OP or the TR outgear you, you dont stand a chance, if you dont outskill them by miles.
With Renegade path you have +10% crit from feat, + chilling presence is making a huge bonus for CW's dps and if you are running with icy veins you have chance to freeze TR with negaton, if he is running with Elven you can slot EotS. Besides....EoTs... i don't like to slot it, it's bugged, sometimes it works also for.....your foe...so you can also give +100% chance to krit for TR which isn't at this momment in stealth
ITC... it is nightmare for CWs. When you are fighting TRs you get amount of dps from guy who you can't even see, and when you can see him he is all time immune to CC and dps- great mechanic GZ devs. Best way for me was always waiting for end of ITC, and TR dodge and then i was throwing opressiv in place where i saw TR last time, or wait for end of ITC and throw icy rays, sometimes it works... (anyway he will probably deflect it all so you stuns can last maybe 0,5 sec you will not be able to even think, what can you do) but we all know CW has slowest movement in game and TR can run like a 110% mount, so it might look like- you are running in place where you last time saw TR and throwing OF and he is laughing from another side of point. You haven't got big options here. This class is absolutley perfection, he hasn't got weak points vs CW, you are not able to kill endgame skilled TR as a CW. Sad....but real.
This right here... is the majority of the issue that drives everyone to pop up in the forum just to complain about a class being too op. For some reason many people want to believe that they are up against someone with the same gear. Either that or they do not think about it when they are in the throes of match.
Instead of complaining that someone kicked your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... consider that they are either very skilled or they are very geared. After you consider that... what ever the reason is, commend them on their ability. I have talked with a lot of TRs and other players after a match because I was impressed with their skill. We have ended up friends in the game. So the next time we fight there will be a moment between us... where it will be just us, one on one. I actually enjoy fighting people I know have a lot of skill.
I can tell the difference between skill and gear. Some people have both and that stands out in a crowd.
Are you kidding me?
I have been playing D&D since the 80's and I have always had a Thief or a Rogue character. You cannot tell me that my lv 23 'pen and paper' Tiefling Rogue could not, would not or should not be able to kill ANY Mage/Wizard. One hide in shadows, backstab shot and any squishy Mage would drop... not many could take 100+ HP of damage and live. I am not even talking about a Natural 20 being rolled.