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Member Posts: 4 Arc User
One of the biggest problems with Elemental Evil in my opinion is the fact that we actually lost content. We lost seven tier 2 dungeons; Dread Vault, Lair of the Pirate King, Castle Never, Spellplague Caverns, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart. That's a BIG deal and I just can't wrap my head around the fact that a new mod meant less things to do. But an even bigger issue than losing all of these dungeons is that we now have no incentive to run these dungeons.
To put this in context, blue Alliance gear comes from the tier 1 dungeons; Epic Lair of Lostmauth, Valindra's Tower, and Malabog's Castle (but not really Malabog's Castle since it's ridiculously laggy and unplayable every time). Once the Alliance set is complete, players move onto the tier 2 dungeons, which are Epic Cragmire Crypts, Epic Temple of the Spider, and Epic Gray Wolf Den. Likewise, it doesn't take long to get the purple Elemental Alliance gear. From there, you can choose to complete a tier 2 dungeon once a day to get a Cache of the Protector.
First of all, I know a lot of people who aren't even bothering with the protector seals simply because the Elven Gear is hardly an upgrade, or it doesn't provide players with the stats they want. And that would be fine if it didn't take a ridiculously long time to get enough protector seals to complete the set. So what's the point of spending time collecting protector seals if you could spend that time collecting refining stones, doing dailies, or upgrading enchantments and artifacts?
An even bigger problem than the Elven gear itself is the inaccessibility of it. Protector seals can be obtained from the three tier 2 dungeons. We've already heard over and over again about how difficult these dungeons are, but here's the reality. The difficulty is fine, for groups of highly geared endgame players. I'm not talking about having a couple legendary artifacts. I'm talking about five people with legendary artifact gear and mythic artifacts, rank 10+ enchantments, etc. Those are the only groups that can complete these dungeons, unless you're using an exploit or glitch, which is how most players are able to obtain caches right now.
Ok so you've got your daily cache from exploiting a glitch. Maybe you even went during the Dungeons event so you could get the extra 3k rough astral diamonds. Great! Now the question is... now what? You've already used up your free daily dungeon key (since there's no Dungeon Delves anymore), you don't need blue Alliance gear so there's no need to run tier 1 dungeons, you already have your Elemental Alliance gear and your cache, so there's no need to run tier 2 dungeons. I guess that means you're done for the day.
Speaking of Dungeon Delves, why is it gone? During this event you didn't need a key to open a chest at the end of a dungeon. Yes I know Lair of the Pirate King was exploited during this event, but it also incentivized everyone to be online during the time of the event and to actually utilize the content. Besides, there were plenty of people running Epic Lair of Lostmauth or other dungeons during Dungeon Delves.
The last thing I want to talk about is the lack of unbound gear. The lack of variety in gear is, frankly, boring. Set bonuses were fantastic and everyone had a different opinion on which was the best set for which class, or even if wearing a full set was the way to go. Some people even carried around two or three sets for different situations. That's gone now. But what I want to get to is that since all the pieces of gear are bound, one can't sell them on the Auction House (obviously), thus effectively eliminating an income of refined astral diamonds from dungeons unless you're lucky enough to get an artifact (which doesn't drop in tier 2 dungeons). Yes, you can salvage this gear for, what? 3k? And sometimes you'll go through a whole dungeon without getting a piece of gear anyway. Maybe you'll get a peridot. Maybe you'll get nothing. And if you purchase a key from the Wondrous Bazaar for 5k to open a tier 2 dungeon chest, you'll find a piece of gear that you can salvage for 4k (if I remember correctly). So effectively there is no dependable way to make a profit from running dungeons.
Putting all of this aside, dungeons are supposed to be fun. Right now we have six dungeons to choose from. One of them is unplayable because of lag issues. Three of them are unbeatable without a group of ridiculously strong players, or you could use a glitch for one of them. That leaves two dungeons that we can legitimately complete. Two. I used to run dungeons for the variety and to just have fun choosing a different dungeon every day or so and working alongside my friends. That's not an option anymore.
To recap, it took you a couple days but you've got your blue Alliance gear. You've started running tier 2 dungeons (really only the one where you can exploit a glitch to defeat the boss), and you've collected your purple Elemental Alliance gear. You decided you're going to go for the Elven set and so you complete that same dungeon once a day exploiting a glitch to get your daily cache. You only run this one dungeon once a day, because there's no logical reason to run any others.
When are you bringing back all of the old dungeons? When are you going to fix the dungeons we have now? Will we ever have a good reason to complete dungeons again?
To put this in context, blue Alliance gear comes from the tier 1 dungeons; Epic Lair of Lostmauth, Valindra's Tower, and Malabog's Castle (but not really Malabog's Castle since it's ridiculously laggy and unplayable every time). Once the Alliance set is complete, players move onto the tier 2 dungeons, which are Epic Cragmire Crypts, Epic Temple of the Spider, and Epic Gray Wolf Den. Likewise, it doesn't take long to get the purple Elemental Alliance gear. From there, you can choose to complete a tier 2 dungeon once a day to get a Cache of the Protector.
First of all, I know a lot of people who aren't even bothering with the protector seals simply because the Elven Gear is hardly an upgrade, or it doesn't provide players with the stats they want. And that would be fine if it didn't take a ridiculously long time to get enough protector seals to complete the set. So what's the point of spending time collecting protector seals if you could spend that time collecting refining stones, doing dailies, or upgrading enchantments and artifacts?
An even bigger problem than the Elven gear itself is the inaccessibility of it. Protector seals can be obtained from the three tier 2 dungeons. We've already heard over and over again about how difficult these dungeons are, but here's the reality. The difficulty is fine, for groups of highly geared endgame players. I'm not talking about having a couple legendary artifacts. I'm talking about five people with legendary artifact gear and mythic artifacts, rank 10+ enchantments, etc. Those are the only groups that can complete these dungeons, unless you're using an exploit or glitch, which is how most players are able to obtain caches right now.
Ok so you've got your daily cache from exploiting a glitch. Maybe you even went during the Dungeons event so you could get the extra 3k rough astral diamonds. Great! Now the question is... now what? You've already used up your free daily dungeon key (since there's no Dungeon Delves anymore), you don't need blue Alliance gear so there's no need to run tier 1 dungeons, you already have your Elemental Alliance gear and your cache, so there's no need to run tier 2 dungeons. I guess that means you're done for the day.
Speaking of Dungeon Delves, why is it gone? During this event you didn't need a key to open a chest at the end of a dungeon. Yes I know Lair of the Pirate King was exploited during this event, but it also incentivized everyone to be online during the time of the event and to actually utilize the content. Besides, there were plenty of people running Epic Lair of Lostmauth or other dungeons during Dungeon Delves.
The last thing I want to talk about is the lack of unbound gear. The lack of variety in gear is, frankly, boring. Set bonuses were fantastic and everyone had a different opinion on which was the best set for which class, or even if wearing a full set was the way to go. Some people even carried around two or three sets for different situations. That's gone now. But what I want to get to is that since all the pieces of gear are bound, one can't sell them on the Auction House (obviously), thus effectively eliminating an income of refined astral diamonds from dungeons unless you're lucky enough to get an artifact (which doesn't drop in tier 2 dungeons). Yes, you can salvage this gear for, what? 3k? And sometimes you'll go through a whole dungeon without getting a piece of gear anyway. Maybe you'll get a peridot. Maybe you'll get nothing. And if you purchase a key from the Wondrous Bazaar for 5k to open a tier 2 dungeon chest, you'll find a piece of gear that you can salvage for 4k (if I remember correctly). So effectively there is no dependable way to make a profit from running dungeons.
Putting all of this aside, dungeons are supposed to be fun. Right now we have six dungeons to choose from. One of them is unplayable because of lag issues. Three of them are unbeatable without a group of ridiculously strong players, or you could use a glitch for one of them. That leaves two dungeons that we can legitimately complete. Two. I used to run dungeons for the variety and to just have fun choosing a different dungeon every day or so and working alongside my friends. That's not an option anymore.
To recap, it took you a couple days but you've got your blue Alliance gear. You've started running tier 2 dungeons (really only the one where you can exploit a glitch to defeat the boss), and you've collected your purple Elemental Alliance gear. You decided you're going to go for the Elven set and so you complete that same dungeon once a day exploiting a glitch to get your daily cache. You only run this one dungeon once a day, because there's no logical reason to run any others.
When are you bringing back all of the old dungeons? When are you going to fix the dungeons we have now? Will we ever have a good reason to complete dungeons again?
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If i recall correctly the said in the stream we get this year 3 another reworked dungeons.
The gear rewards does not resemble the amount of work needed to access this gear. The stat differences are minimal as is the iL upgrades.
t2, NOW, should have a iL of 160 or so... based on the GS differences between t1, t2 and higher. There is a 56 point difference between the top end Bi gear and any blue 60 gear. Now that difference is 15 to 25 based on whether or not it is the upgraded Elemental. Putting more of an emphasis on the enchant ranks than the gear... makes/made them more money.
Then you would have a better chance to complete... and a way to work up
Urlord
so what you say as 1800 would be more like 2800 for survival. I my self is very disappointment in the fact these epics are fa more difficult then they should be. I have played table top d&d, AD&D, gamma world, star frontiers and a few others that i don't remember the names of, i have DM, GM, and any other term used for this position in the game, in all these games for the last 32 years, and if i did any dungeon as hard as these the rewards would have matched the difficulty, unlike these are for the difficulty. but if i would have kept my, I would not have had any players. so the makers of this game really needs to re-evaluate the difficulty of the dungeons the have open now before moving on to making new ones.
I'd like to see a multi-tiered approach and bring back the original dungeons, gear and groups ALONG with keeping the current system as a more 'heroic' type approach. In the meantime, I'll just do skirmishes. ;p Prolly end up crafting my own stuff or work on campaigns. Not seeing dungeons in my future any time soon, which makes me a little sad as THEY WERE FUN.
...this has been absolutely just the same with GS in pre-Mod-6 times. And way, way, way, way, worse for Tiamat where the only entrance regulation was the time window IIRC. Can't remember if WoD might've had a limit.
So I find this sub-topic merely quite futile...
I have yet to complete one since Mod6
Nerf them or what ever
Urlord
From PK farm you did 60-80k AD/hour in mod5.
CN and epic Dread Vault were interesting dungeons not just burning through instances like nowadays.
There is a way to tell whether or not a chest is a Mimic. When you hover your pointer over the chest... if you see a 'bag' it is loot. If you don't see a 'bag' it is a mimic.
Don't get me wrong OP, I fully agree with you - but while I was going through your post I felt that you're playing this game to achieve something. That something is probably fulfilling some real-life gaps of selfesteem?
Don't get me wrong again, I'm not attacking you in any way. Although I can't bring myself to understand how (or rather... why) people like you play games (or Neverwinter in particular).
Let me explain why I do it. I play games (or Neverwinter in particular) to have fun (something people clearly forget when they come here at the forums to rant). I play to have fun killing stuff (even if it's doing Sharandar dailies (which I've been doing since mod1(?)). I talk with my guildees and friends on TS and we all just go and have fun at the most stupid places in the game you can think of. The heck with it... we even secretly open all the mimics in dungeons just to see how many of us the mimic one-shot kills by surprise, then we proceed to laugh our assess off like drugged monkeys.
In the end you play this game to have fun. If you're not having fun then go play something else.
The only thing that I must say has pissed me off with crapmod6 was (as you said) the 7 dungeons removed. I must say I love everything else about it:
1. Everything got incredibly harder. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> yeah. With mod5 I soloed CN several times every evening. Yes it was damn easy with my 25k CW (at the time) but that "easy" started boring me to death. Everywhere I went, regardless with whoever I went, I just ended up soloing the entire thing. At the end people started getting angry at me and kicked me from parties because... "I ran ahead all the time". You're damn sure I'll run ahead, the others are just slowing me down, I don't need their help. Do you happen to comprehend how <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that was?
2. Everything is BoP or BoA. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> yeah. Now you have to grind your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to achieve stuff. I got so pissed off at the people that just bought all BiS from the AH and then went to a dungeon they had no friking idea how to play. Yeah I know that's a HUUUGE kick in the reproductive organs as you have way less income. Not everyone can be rich, otherwise that leads to inflation and the economy ends up in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (something that has happened a couple of times before).
Yet I must say I make more than legit 100k A.D. a day just by salvaging stuff (I send the BoA to my alts), selling not-bound RP (you get a lot of these if you just move your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> a bit) in the AH and Leadership.
3. Dungeons are impossible. False! (this is a continuation from point 1) I've successfully completed eTOS and eCC with a 2.1-2.5k party (yeah GWD is a bit harder and requires more ilvl). Yes it doesn't take you 5 min to finish it. Yes you spend 20 mins only at the boss. But do you know what? That awesome feeling of achievement even if you get a stupid belt in the box. Never go without a tank & a DC, you need control and a DPS (pick your party members correctly).
Even sometimes you just won't be able to complete it. That's how life is. Not everyone can be a King or a President... and are you going at your Congress ranting about that? No.
Please try to be somehow mature, use your head and stop ranting at something given to you for free.
Good luck and have fun.
Sounds like a completely unwarranted attack to me, actually. Not sure why you would feel the need to post something like this.
You can play this game for any reason you'd like and so can I. However, I do happen to play this game because I find it fun. Just because we may find different things fun doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong and it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize anything either.
I never said the dungeon's difficulty should be nerfed, I just said they're too difficult for 90% of players and that that 90% should have easier versions of these dungeons. By all means, keep these dungeons the way they are, but give the rest of us something we're able to complete.
In Mod 5 a lot of times there wasn't one BiS due to set bonuses and all the different stat options. Again, nowhere did I say BiS gear should be cheap on the AH, but I believe there is a way to have high quality gear be rare drops; rare enough that they're still expensive on the AH (kind of like the CN weapons that went for 100k+).
Good for you. But it's not accurate to say "every 2.1k - 2.5k party can complete eToS and eCC" just because you have. Again, the difficulty of the dungeons are fine, but give 90% of the people something they're able to complete.
Another completely unwarranted attack. There's a feedback forum for a reason and that reason is so people can provide feedback. If you don't like it, go be an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> somewhere else. Thank you.
In off, any unwarranted attack by someone named in leet speak should be discredited and buried deep. That just goes to show how real maturity is.
Worry not OP, the legit people are with you.
I think eTOS is doable with a less than perfect geared group. Like a lot of the time we run 4 dps and an op because in the last fight the only real danger is the op dies to mobs and more dps means even with a bunch weakly geared players the mobs die fast enough and in general the op can make everyone immortal long enough that the group isn't in danger. The other T2 dungeons are certainly more of an established character's notion of a challenge.
About that kind of tiering though, I want harder dungeons to require more stuff. That's progression to me. The way it was beforehand was just zombie mode. That said the lack of variety certainly hasn't helped. The pve quickly went from yay a bit of challenge again to tedious. I'll take a real jaundiced view of old dungeons coming back as new content. We needed at least 9 dungeons, 3 for the ungeared, 3 to get geared and some challenge and 3 for the challenge. And we needed the others to come back sooner. You can say I'm expecting too much but I'm a consumer and frankly I have options. A lot of people are only around because of time sunk.
The lack of reward has been a long term trend now. The ingame rewards for effort put in used to make sense but its progressively cut down mod after mod which removes all the extrinsic reasons for running a dungeon. Right now people run elol like they were playing a slot machine. If I do it 500 times I should get something I can sell. That kind of reward system is obnoxious to me and it pulls the ladder up for any new player. They can't get the ad together to really catch up. If they had like 5 years and the goalposts never moved maybe. The hostility to rewarding players worries me.