Regarding upper hand

Comments

• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  January 2015 edited January 2015

  So it is working.. in an unintended way. I guess I should have followed up my observation of UH tests having higher crit, but at the time I thought it really was just crit RNG.
  
  Cryptic never fails to impress :x
  

  TODO: Confirm that powers that don't proc debuffs work similarily if there is a debuff stack.

  My old Rising Knee test w/ Shredded also had a notable crit% gap (3 vs 11), so I'd imagine this to hold true. I'd prob test a non-Shredded debuff (like stagger or bleed) w/ a non-debuffing melee power, though- since all my old tests w/ the crit gap had Shredded up.
  
  Nice work analyzing this btw.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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• jimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User

  January 2015 edited January 2015

  flowcyto wrote: »

  So it is working.. in an unintended way. I guess I should have followed up my observation of UH tests having higher crit, but at the time I thought it really was just crit RNG.

  
  That observation was what inspired me to test this in the first place. Also, to prove you wrong about something ...
  
  All kidding aside, at least it does something. Guess DEX and Brush it off will be next.

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• h4forums Posts: 268 Arc User

  March 2023 edited March 2023

  Revisiting this thread after some build discussion with shapey, I think this post is no longer accurate. After all its been 8 years since, and I don't know if there was a patch somewhere in between to change things.
  
  For my test, I took my unleashed to the powerhouse and hit a dummy for 5 minutes, and I wanted to count actual crits compared to expected crits.
  
  total hits 442
  total crits 247
  percentage crit 0.559
  
  character sheet crit 0.39
  + vindi mass destr 0.06
  + warden slaughter 0.09
  = total expect crit 0.54
  
  while there is still a 2% difference, its not as notable as the 8% shown by the OP.
  
  my test data (i took out the slicer glove procs)
  
  
  
  I ran a few more tests with a low crit setup on PTS, since the difference between 3.8% crit and 3.8%+6% crit should be noticeable. These results also suggest that the upper hand spec no longer adds crit chance.
  
  I spammed thundering kicks on powerhouse dummy with 3.8% character sheet tooltip crit chance, and then again with 3/3 upper hand spec. Thundering kicks has the demolish advantage, and upper hand is supposed to work with this. Without upper hand, I got 16/552 (2.90%) crits. With upper hand, I got 12/559 (2.15%) crits. Both are around the same result, and suggests that upper hand does not give hidden crit chance bonus.

  Post edited by h4forums on March 2023

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• h4forums Posts: 268 Arc User

  March 2023 edited March 2023

  oops double post
  

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  March 2023 edited March 2023

  Yea, considering how old this thread is, and that Upper Hand has been revamped long since then, it's likely they saw this bug and fixed it while updating Upper Hand (to make it include melee-centered -resist debuffs, which they've expanded since then, and not also some general DoTs like Bleed).

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  March 2023 edited March 2023

  stairs0 wrote: »

  interesting but I think vindicator's +crit chance spec doesn't work above r1 right now, so I don't know if that changes your tests. I tried with mini gun spam, 1/3 and 3/3 for 5 minutes and the 1/3 setup had a few more crits than the 3/3 actually. I don't even know if the spec works altogether tbh.

  Hmm perhaps, but the difference there is pretty small (only ~4% crit), so simple RNG can also blur the line in shorter tests.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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• gammabreaker Posts: 230 Arc User

  March 2023 edited March 2023

  I ran a 10 minute test on 3/3 Focused Strikes in Vindicator with a 0.5s tick maintain and 2.2% crit chance. It produced a 9% crit chance in total, which is within RNG for a test of 1100ish ticks.
  
  So with regards to ranged, single target maintains Focused Strikes appears to be working. Given how finicky the power tagging can get, there may be edge cases.
  
  I have not tested Mass Destruction. Yet.

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• h4forums Posts: 268 Arc User

  April 2023

  Flowcyto pointed out that the test data showed upper hand working as it was originally intended: adding 6% melee damage. I was uncertain whether this was really base damage, so I ran a few more tests with a low crit shred build using R3 unstoppable but no toggle form.
  
  Character crit: 6.4% chance, 50% severity
  Tooltip shred : 715-822-1293 dmg
  
  no UH: shred did 679-1956 damage over 208 hits
  same build +3/3 UH: shred did 718-2034 dmg over 206 hits
  
  Using flowcyto's suggestion, comparing lows, 679 to 718 dmg, is 5.7% difference. This is pretty close to the listed 6%, so I guess it really is a base damage bonus after all.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  April 2023 edited April 2023

  Well, Upper Hand could still be in the severity/offense layer, since the highest UH crit is just 3.99% more than the highest crit w/o UH (apparently). That could also be due to the lack of data points for crits, though, since crit rate was overall pretty low here, and the highest crit can only come from the last part of the combo (207/3*6.4% = only about 4-5 applicable data points per test there, on average, which is a very small sample size).
  
  That said, yea given that your tooltip dmg numbers for Shred are much higher than its dmg w/ no build_gear, this does rule out UH just being in the passive dmg layer (w/ all the DR). Also, thanks to you and to Gammabreaker for giving some extra tests here.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  April 2023 edited April 2023

  Doing some quick tests myself, since I had to reinstall ACT on my newer comp at some point anyways..
  
  Going w/ a high crit% setup (Int PSS + Dex SS with 2/2 Expertise and R3 Hybrid AoPM, Wardicator) and using R2 100Hands w/ Demolish adv, since it's steady, rapid dmg for melee (ignoring the chi flame dmg). Also threw in TKicks w/ Demolish at the start so all tracked hits of 100Hands would have Demolish. Has 43.2% char sheet crit, 88.7% severity, and (supposedly) 6% extra crit from Mass Destruction (also using R3 CoAP for stable energy).
  
  Fortunately, ACT allows you to also sort your data by category from increasing_decreasing values, which makes getting the highs or lows even easier in practice.
  
  =[Test 1]= 0/3 Upper Hand (1056 hits total, 51% overall crit rate):
  
  
  
  
  Some weirdness w/ the resist values and Demolish aside (which doesn't have a bearing on the base dmg values), the highest base dmg crit hit is ~367, and the lowest base normal hit is ~182.5.
  
  =[Test 2]= 3/3 Upper Hand (1032 hits total, 50% overall crit rate):
  
  
  
  
  Highest base crit hit here is ~378, while the lowest base normal hit is ~192.7.
  
  378/367 = only a ~3% increase on the highest crit, and a ~5.6% increase on the lowest normal hit. Both the lowest normal hit and the highest crit hit are boosted by almost the same amount (~10-11 dmg). This actually supports Upper Hand being in the offense/severity layer and not being a full base dmg boost (a bit weird, but not impossible, since dmg utility mods also fall in that layer, iirc). I guess the early hint was the bonus for the lowest normal hit not being quite 6%, despite having more precise dmg numbers for that, as offense rating could impact that slightly as is (had 7.8% offense bonus here).
  
  --
  
  Conveniently, judging by the overall crit rates I got for 100Hands, I think these tests also give strong support for Mass Destruction working as advertised, which is nice.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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