I don't think anyone asked for any balance changes to fix PvP. Any of the balance issues I ever end up stating are technically bugs and mess up PvE ballenece even more than it could ever do PvP wise. The reason for this is because in PvP people can counter pretty much anything.
Fact is you've misunderstood that this thread isn't asking for balance, this is hardly an issue in coPvP.
As to the nonsense of seeing no recent powers added I can tell you that you are wrong. We've seen new laser sword powers and new mind powers, we've also had rimefire added as well as a new team wide force buff maintain power. These were added before Crush left to go to the NeverWinter team however. We are supposed to have some guys on the current Cryptic North team who are willing to work on new powers however this is still a mystery.
FYI I don't know any hero game with better PvP than CO. DCUO has very sticky gameplay and is basically just about grinding, clearly made for the console. Even compared to most new fantasy games like Wildstar I'd say CO's PvP is a lot more thrilling. I don't know any game which has the same speed of combat that CO has and I don't know any that stretches the gameplay into the full 3D space instead of across a flat leveled ground. In CO PvP you can jump anywhere to using the world to your advantage to the point it almost ends up feeling like a shooter, you can't do that on many other games.
The thing is with CO is it's community is very small, this means that certain "trolls" or as you call them "anti-social players" can stand out much more than they would elsewhere. But go onto any other game and you see these people throughout littered about the place, just no one takes notice of them so much. The difference is with PvP to something like PvE, if another player gets cocky you can do something about it at some point.
FYI I don't know any hero game with better PvP than CO. DCUO has very sticky gameplay and is basically just about grinding, clearly made for the console. Even compared to most new fantasy games like Wildstar I'd say CO's PvP is a lot more thrilling. I don't know any game which has the same speed of combat that CO has and I don't know any that stretches the gameplay into the full 3D space instead of across a flat leveled ground. In CO PvP you can jump anywhere to using the world to your advantage to the point it almost ends up feeling like a shooter, you can't do that on many other games.
Only game that I can think of that does all those things better is Gunz 2: The Second Duel... but that game is not about super heroes u3u
I don't think anyone asked for any balance changes to fix PvP. Any of the balance issues I ever end up stating are technically bugs and mess up PvE ballenece even more than it could ever do PvP wise. The reason for this is because in PvP people can counter pretty much anything.
Fact is you've misunderstood that this thread isn't asking for balance, this is hardly an issue in coPvP.
Balance exists as an issue with build disparity. Everyone knows that cookie cutter exists in PVP, that is if you want to be on a competitive edge. Anyone who purely builds with a thematic focus and casually so isn't automatically going be on par with people who have built specifically for PVP with the metagame in mind. Let's not pretend that the opposite is true. Let's not conveniently ignore this. It's a very huge factor as to why the PVP community remains as a small niche and probably why the devs aren't bothering.
As to the nonsense of seeing no recent powers added I can tell you that you are wrong. We've seen new laser sword powers and new mind powers, we've also had rimefire added as well as a new team wide force buff maintain power.
Sorry, I didn't say what I meant. I meant that we haven't seen any new power sets, only minor revamps to existing power sets here and there...
The thing is with CO is it's community is very small, this means that certain "trolls" or as you call them "anti-social players" can stand out much more than they would elsewhere.
I'm not responding to PvP in CO, I'm responding to PvP games in general as I've seen them over the last two decades.
But go onto any other game and you see these people throughout littered about the place, just no one takes notice of them so much. The difference is with PvP to something like PvE, if another player gets cocky you can do something about it at some point.
It's not about cockiness, it's about people who get off on the schadenfreud of the misery of other players. Targeting the same person and killing them repeatedly for the sole purpose of making them rage quit. That's the kind of behavior that drives players away from a game, especially new players. Our community is too small to provide a safe haven for people like that.
I'd rather see work being done on fresh pve zones and new whole new power sets than work done on a minor part of the game that was only ever sloppily tacked on by Cryptic in an attempt to hedge its bets...
Well Invuln or IDF basically makes you un-killable in PvE as it is. Unbreakable is actually bugged with invulnerable making it absorb around 1/3rd more than it actually should do for whatever reason, some error in the maths somewhere. Having 100% dodge chance without stacking any avoidance with MD gives around 50% flat damage resistance, if you have a really basic amount defence with Invuln you will already have enough to give a flat 50%. If you're one of these people who uses the defence buff from armadillo secondary's I believe that this is also flat. Warden is also on it's own separate layer.
Generally speaking all these numbers mean that if something hits you for 10k damage you first half the damage so it becomes 5k, you then half it again so 2.5k you then take off 25% due to armadillo meaning 1,875. That's a crazy damage decrease with such low defence with invuln cutting off it's flat amount as well. This is before thinking if it's an AOE attack there is an extra 20% taken off meaning the 1,875 becomes 1500. (a surprisingly neat number) If you can find a way to get this 50% decrease through somewhere else other than when MD is up you can make unbreakable able to withstand a 10k hit and heal itself through it. This is a big factor that made someone like Seraphim when using his invuln mind break rotation build pretty unkillable seeing as my max of 8k per tick SR couldn't actually break through his unbreakable and did hardly anything on his MD.
The only way to kill someone like this is to either gank him with lots of people while MD is on instead of unbreakable or burst him with a bugged ability such as mind break which isn't affected by unbreakable at all.
The same balance issue goes for PvE however the only difference is that no one really considered PvE "competitive" in any way, shape or form in it's current state.
Defiance and LR also can make someone just as unkillable. Regen less so in even in PvE where there is no trauma however if it wasn't affected by trauma it'd be on par with the others in PvP as well IMO.
You helped my PvE Builds with this!
My Kung Fu ARMADILLO character will take advadage of both Lighting Reflexes and Armadillo Secondaries
It will be so awesome, even his gear will fit his Theme :biggrin:
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I'm fairly sure mind break is affected by unbreakable. but as its counted as one attack only the first couple hits can be absorbed, which is intended as far as I'm concerned.
The main part of the power which is the copy and pasted part for similar powers works propperly with unbreakable. It's the extra part that Crush added on which is the part that consumes the DOT stacks. The damage from this isn't affected by unbreakable, this is not intended. Fact is that a super tank using invuln and perma active defenses to be immortal as I described earlier could use this as a burst to get if I remember correctly around 30-40k as it's max burst when all conditions are in place to achieve the damage. This is the best build currently in CO PvP as for being a solo player goes. This build is able to be countered rather easy to not be able to kill anything however you probably wont be able to kill it doing this. I found if you just keep standing behind LOS whenever stacks start to build up too fast and staying further than 50ft away you can easily make it so they never get enough DOT stacks on you to be able to burst. This is an example of where you can counter any power combo in coPvP.
(to others)
I would like someone to tell me what they believe the "FOTM" or "cookie cutter" they believe to be are. Because there is actually a lot more viriety in builds in PvP than you would think.
Fact is that things like AOPM are not so much used because they are "better" I've found most people use it as it's easier. You don't have to think about energy when making the build, you can pretty much use anything with it and super stats anything at all. The reason you see so many using this in PvP despite it not giving the best damage or defense is because it's by far the easiest thing to use. As for passives I'd say there are only one or two that truly could be considered "less viable" in PvP due to the sacrifice in damage / defense not being worth what you get. Example of one of these being PFF which lacks balance just as much in PvE, even more so if you want to consider it for a frosti tank.
I've said this so many times, there is very little things that are "must haves" in PvP. However the things that are must haves are utility / support powers such as MD / conviction (I've used builds that don't use conviction a few times in PvP however) / MSA (it's possible to build away from it for example not using int but pure con with the darkness unlock). Funny thing is I just gave examples of where you could use other options in "competitive PvP builds" MD is only the one big must have for me as it's the only way to truly counter SS / SR / UR type burst damage as well as ego surge -> high damaging combo type burst damage where unbreakable wouldn't give enough to stop it.
Generally when making a build I try to include MD / ego surge / conviction / MSA right away on the build to give me a 4 things that will work with how a spec my characters (very high int). I believe that these 4 powers are the only way I could be considered using a cookie cutter, I do this so I don't have such a hard time making more interesting damage combo's. SR hits a lot of damage however I don't truly see that many people in PvP using it currently for various reasons. UR is of course one you'll see a lot however it's damage still only goes to about 20k with electric form on a super squishy, not truly a massive amount of damage when you think about it. 2GM is hardly used in actual PvP builds currently due to it being easy to counter with active defense cycling.
So what truly is a cookie cutter or FOTM in PvP currently, is it just these few buffs and obvious spec choices that mean you can't use variety in PvP?
FYI I do not consider balance to be as high on the issues list in PvP than other things. The balance issues in PvP are almost exactly the same as PvE.
It's not exactly true that pvp balance is the same as pve.
Powers like force geyser show that something can be meh in pve and too good in pvp.
I'm pretty sure the examples given were stuff like MD and Conviction and nobody was trying to make the point that every single power had the same balance in pve as it did in pvp.
It's not exactly true that pvp balance is the same as pve.
Powers like force geyser show that something can be meh in pve and too good in pvp.
Well of course as for CC in general the balance is totally different in PvP and PvE as in PvE people consider it rather underpowered / pointless / ruined. Force geyser could be considered "OP" in PvP as it's one of the most reliable knocks and is 100ft both of which don't really matter much in PvE. Other CC's that are called OP are ego sleep which breaks in one hit so is considered pointless again in PvE (I actually found it really useful for speed running jack fool however, I'm sure there are other areas of PvE where it can be of use), sonic device is also considered OP in PvP due to it being able to go onto a 100ft attack making it technically a 100ft stun that you don't have to waste any time charging / activating. The stun doesn't really work on AoE meaning once again it's not considered so good for PvE also the fact it's 100ft doesn't really matter at all in PvE.
I was mainly referring to all the buff type powers, things like CC that is considered underpowered in PvE is still one of the most important things in any PvP build. Same goes for being able to move while charging something and having a power 100ft over it being only 50ft. You could argue that the second one there is mainly due to the game being too easy though, in WildStar not being able to move while casting an ability makes it much less wanted for team fights in PvE. Also if npc's were hard enough or actually needed to be interrupted at specific times CC would also be very useful and you would want the most reliable CC there is so force geyser would actually become a rather useful power in PvE as well.
So I give to you that the balance in these areas is only considered different due to PvE being so much easier and not having a need for any of the movement / range / cc / debuff type things that PvP builds need to counter other builds.
The thing is you will never have true balance in CO because its not built for PvP. PvP is a fun side quest , one thats needs better rewards and the Q's fixed U_U
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I don't think anyone asked for any balance changes to fix PvP. Any of the balance issues I ever end up stating are technically bugs and mess up PvE ballenece even more than it could ever do PvP wise.
This is very true and the first priority should be the Private Queue option.
The senario below happens quite often with random queues.
Let us look our super heroes. (villains?)
Team1: Black Widow, Spiderman, Harley Quinn, Legolas, Billy Mays
Vs.
Team2: Superman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine, Alucard
The teams above is quite unbalanced as team2 will crush team1 in a heartbeat.
This is where the Private Queue comes in. Instead of random que, people will advertise via pvp chat channel and create a private que.
Players will communicate and attempt to balance the teams!
Devs don't even have to lift a finger for power balance when the players are balancing the teams as a whole.
This is why the very first step of PvP balance is to create a "Private Queue" option. Give players chance to balance each others' teams before entering a PvP match.
I'm not sure how PvP works in this game. I've been duel-spammed a ton but I've never duelled (or PvP'd) since I don't know what the powers do in PvP; I haven't seen a "PvP" section on the various powers, but I may have missed that due to inattentiveness.
My last game foray was in the now defunct City of Heroes, which had really fun PvP since you could do team games, the pace was super fast and there were rewards toward the end...and ladders and so on. Now, I was bad/average at best but it was fun zooming around and attacking people.
I queued for some of the HERO Games stuff here and nothing ever happened. I'd be willing to get an equip spec for some of my builds if I understood the system...or if there were Arenas (which I understand are a non-factor) or whatnot.
______________________________________________
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Amelie Layclaire - Lightning and Wind (40) Solution Five - Gadgets and Subterfuge (40) Dodgeball Kara - Support and Ebon Ruin (40) Relentless Pursuit - Fire and Force (35) Rear Window - Homage - Icy Disposition (20) Teaming with @shottymario and hoping to meet you all ingame.
This is very true and the first priority should be the Private Queue option.
The senario below happens quite often with random queues.
Let us look our super heroes. (villains?)
Team1: Black Widow, Spiderman, Harley Quinn, Legolas, Billy Mays
Vs.
Team2: Superman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine, Alucard
The teams above is quite unbalanced as team2 will crush team1 in a heartbeat.
This is where the Private Queue comes in. Instead of random que, people will advertise via pvp chat channel and create a private que.
Players will communicate and attempt to balance the teams!
Devs don't even have to lift a finger for power balance when the players are balancing the teams as a whole.
This is why the very first step of PvP balance is to create a "Private Queue" option. Give players chance to balance each others' teams before entering a PvP match.
You don't need private queues for any of that.
You might want to consider those Team Duels... you remember.. the ones everyone was so hype about when they first came out? Same difference, and you even get to pick the location of the fight.
You might want to consider those Team Duels... you remember.. the ones everyone was so hype about when they first came out? Same difference, and you even get to pick the location of the fight.
I should have been more clear. What I meant is that kind of unbalanced team senario happens in Stronghold, UTC and King of the Hill matches.
I should have been more clear. What I meant is that kind of unbalanced team senario happens in Stronghold, UTC and King of the Hill matches.
I know what you meant. And I'm pointing out that you already have private pvp queues... and they're called Team Duels. Oh but silly me, since you so badly want to pvp with your friends I'm sure you're doing Team Duels with them every day already.
Private Queues would not save the hero games, for the same reason that alerts did not save lairs.
I know what you meant. And I'm pointing out that you already have private pvp queues... and they're called Team Duels. Oh but silly me, since you so badly want to pvp with your friends I'm sure you're doing Team Duels with them every day already.
Private Queues would not save the hero games, for the same reason that alerts did not save lairs.
Team duels and Hero Games are quite different. Hero games have more than 1 objective unlike Team duels and tend to last much longer.
I'm not talking about Private Queues saving anything, I'm suggesting that the Private Queues will proivde players opportunities to balance a possible unfair team composition.
What we have attempted before was that 10 PvPers gathered in Millennium City and formed two teams. Then, the two teams queued simultaneously, hoping to start a hero game of their choice (similar to NemCon queue).
However, if there was someone that had already randomly queued for everything, the whole premade setup would break upon entering the PvP zone. (because you had 11 peopel total: 10 people Premade + Some Random player) <-- results in broken teams.
All I'm saying is that if Devs gave us some kind of lobby system that allows team leaders to organize each others teams, that would be a big step forward in reviving Hero Games.
Team duels and Hero Games are quite different. Hero games have more than 1 objective unlike Team duels and tend to last much longer.
I'm not talking about Private Queues saving anything, I'm suggesting that the Private Queues will proivde players opportunities to balance a possible unfair team composition.
What we have attempted before was that 10 PvPers gathered in Millennium City and formed two teams. Then, the two teams queued simultaneously, hoping to start a hero game of their choice (similar to NemCon queue).
However, if there was someone that had already randomly queued for everything, the whole premade setup would break upon entering the PvP zone. (because you had 11 peopel total: 10 people Premade + Some Random player) <-- results in broken teams.
All I'm saying is that if Devs gave us some kind of lobby system that allows team leaders to organize each others teams, that would be a big step forward in reviving Hero Games.
I still do not believe Private Queues would be a step in the right direction since most people would want to queue up with their friends and/or SG mates. That normally leads to two teams that are even more lopsided than before since people will have extremely similar builds (not all the time, but it's really not uncommon for people who associate with each other will either have certain heartless builds that people mention sometimes or themed builds that don't stand much of a chance).
Even in team duels when we tried a draft pick, it didn't matter how "even" we tried to make the teams. A single person was all it took to make the fights too one-sided.
Team1: Black Widow, Spiderman, Harley Quinn, Legolas, Billy Mays
Vs.
Team2: Superman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine, Alucard
This kinda thing happened in a team duels a few times too. For example when we did the 4v5 with me, kai, green and nicki on the 4. You can see it here.
2x AOPM in support role with 2x maxed DPS PvP builds it's a pretty painful thing to watch. If you look in chat you can even see cerb complain about the teams being unfair because we have kai and green.
I wouldn't really say any game has truly balanced PvP however, even those that are purely PvP. The thing I've argued a lot is that there are many more options in CO PvP for what you can use than in many other games. Looking back on my old videos it looks like I didn't even used to use any AD at all which is kinda funny. This was back before dodge was nerfed and MD's advantage was buffed mind you.
A single person was all it took to make the fights too one-sided.
This, I agree with you. I've created a completely lopsided matches before in SH because I was the only healer in the match. I could keep Raza alive for the whole 45minutes duration and keep my teammates up while they are beating up Ironclad.
To avoid this kind of unfairness, the other team should've brought a healer to the match OR I needed switch characters to a non-healer role.
Private Queues won't solve everything, but I believe it will at least alleviate some of these problems.
I'm more focusing on small fixes such as implementation of "Private Queues", instead of waiting for a complete power overhaul. (ex: all powers change their effectiveness in Hero Games etc...)
This, I agree with you. I've created a completely lopsided matches before in SH because I was the only healer in the match. I could keep Raza alive for the whole 45minutes duration and keep my teammates up while they are beating up Ironclad.
To avoid this kind of unfairness, the other team should've brought a healer to the match OR I needed switch characters to a non-healer role.
Private Queues won't solve everything, but I believe it will at least alleviate some of these problems.
I'm more focusing on small fixes such as implementation of "Private Queues", instead of waiting for a complete power overhaul. (ex: all powers change their effectiveness in Hero Games etc...)
I still don't see power choice so much of a problem in Hero Games, things like mini mines and fury of the dragon are probably almost worse in PvE than in PvP. There doesn't need to be any differences made between PvP and PvE, things like mini mines generally should crit again and maybe mini mines could have it's damage increased by about 10%, this would be a change that creates more options in PvE just as much as PvP. That was just an example by the way, not actually saying they should do that over other things.
Private queue would hurt the queues IMHO. Sure you could put it together but who is going to queue up publically when other people are trying to make a private queue. It's not like the community is big enough to expect people to be privately queuing 24/7.
Private queue would hurt the queues IMHO. Sure you could put it together but who is going to queue up publically when other people are trying to make a private queue. It's not like the community is big enough to expect people to be privately queuing 24/7.
This is a whole different problem and the reason why people need to communicate.
As of right now, public queues are quite dead. If someone starts forming PvP teams via Private Queue, they should advertise so that other people can join or invite. (coPVP channel)
Also, the random queues will likely result in broken teams anyway, we can already see this in PvE where random Fire & Ice queue tend to have much tougher time defeating the bosses.
But, you are right, if the "Private Queue" option is implemented, the chance of getting a Hero Game match for people who do not wish to participate in Premade group will be close to 0. (BASH maybe the only exception)
The Private Queue idea focuses more on Team Balance issue.
"Not enough PvPers" Vs. "Balanced Teams" are two separate issues.
The biggest hypocrisy regarding pvp actually falls into the lap of... surprise, the people constantly talking about Theme.
If you truly embrace Theme, then you embrace the notion that some heroes are more powerful than others, and that the weaker heroes would have a tough time going head to head with those more powerful ones.
If you demand that all players, regardless of theme, be equal, then you do not truly embrace Theme.
Need help creating a hero who uses a theme but is also strong enough to fight other heroes? Got some bad news for you... you know those PvPers you keep calling bad names all the time and blaming for the downfall of everything? They're the only ones who can help you accomplish that ~_^ But if you ask nicely they totally will
This is a whole different problem and the reason why people need to communicate.
As of right now, public queues are quite dead. If someone starts forming PvP teams via Private Queue, they should advertise so that other people can join or invite. (coPVP channel)
Also, the random queues will likely result in broken teams anyway, we can already see this in PvE where random Fire & Ice queue tend to have much tougher time defeating the bosses.
But, you are right, if the "Private Queue" option is implemented, the chance of getting a Hero Game match for people who do not wish to participate in Premade group will be close to 0. (BASH maybe the only exception)
The Private Queue idea focuses more on Team Balance issue.
"Not enough PvPers" Vs. "Balanced Teams" are two separate issues.
I think private queues would be a great idea for folks to get their feet wet in pvp and practice.
I remember City of Heroes had such a system via the Arena system, which worked quite well and was fun when they fixed THEIR own kick bug.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I think private queues would be a great idea for folks to get their feet wet in pvp and practice.
I remember City of Heroes had such a system via the Arena system, which worked quite well and was fun when they fixed THEIR own kick bug.
Unfortunately the end result would be that people never go beyond getting their feet wet. The public pool would be abandoned, meaning pvp would appear to new players to be even deader, and the only remaining pvp would be private groups of people who will only play with their friends and shun anyone who's "too good" or "wins too much".
I think private queues would be a great idea for folks to get their feet wet in pvp and practice.
I remember City of Heroes had such a system via the Arena system, which worked quite well and was fun when they fixed THEIR own kick bug.
*scratches head* I don't remember it working that well. I knwo quite a few groups had personal fight nights going, but especially after the i12 PvP revamp PvP went from a dried up occasionally active husk to a bleached bone skeleton miles away from any oasis.
My wish would be to have a PvP ranking system for heroes.
That way, Hero Games could be organized around ranking, rather than FF vs. AT.
I love PvP, but I'm not great at it. It's super fun to engage in PvP with folks of similar skill level, but incredibly unfun to be farmed by experts. Back-and-forth battles that take a few minutes, when you aren't sure how it's going to go get my blood pumping. Getting curb-stomped in 20-30 seconds, followed by "good game" make me queue up for alerts.
"Just keep at it until you get better." I get that, but simply being defeated over and over with almost no time to move or use powers is a major disincentive.
"Well, guess you just aren't suited to PvP." I get that, too, and that contributes to people not doing PvP.
My wish would be to have a PvP ranking system for heroes.
That way, Hero Games could be organized around ranking, rather than FF vs. AT.
I love PvP, but I'm not great at it. It's super fun to engage in PvP with folks of similar skill level, but incredibly unfun to be farmed by experts. Back-and-forth battles that take a few minutes, when you aren't sure how it's going to go get my blood pumping. Getting curb-stomped in 20-30 seconds, followed by "good game" make me queue up for alerts.
"Just keep at it until you get better." I get that, but simply being defeated over and over with almost no time to move or use powers is a major disincentive.
"Well, guess you just aren't suited to PvP." I get that, too, and that contributes to people not doing PvP.
This is the part where I point out that the population of pvpers is too small to support segregation We've been here before.
Giving us private queues allow us to pvp with who we are ok with pvping with, until we feel comfortable about pvp with randoms.
we wouldn't need a "ranking" system like that.
Nobody would ever feel comfortable about pvping with randoms though. If anything, the "gameplay shock" would become even worse, as people would become comfortable with the "lets go easy on each other" environment in their private queues... then join the public hero games and realize they haven't been preparing for them at all.
Right now the only thing getting in the way of new players joining pvp is the que bug.
With private ques, pvp would become more like trying to become part of an RP clique, complete with catty remarks about your build if it doesn't match all their standards of fairness.
The "elite" PvP'ers aren't going to be happy with any system such as private queues that allow new or inexperienced players to avoid them. To them, the point of increasing player participation in PvP is to supply more grist for the e-peen mill.
Right now the only thing getting in the way of new players joining pvp is the que bug.
Sorry, but being repeatedly farmed in PvP is also a significant obstacle. There are plenty of folks that would like to engage in PvP on a casual basis. Lower-level Hero Games used to let me engage in that sort of thing, but I would always stop when hitting top tier because I disliked being farmed by the same expert PvPer again and again.
The "elite" PvP'ers aren't going to be happy with any system such as private queues that allow new or inexperienced players to avoid them. To them, the point of increasing player participation in PvP is to supply more grist for the e-peen mill.
Who are you even talking about? Who are these "elite" pvpers? It's almost as if you know they don't exist and that's why you put that word in qoutation marks.
Chief complaint among veteran pvpers is difficulty in getting ques to pop because the population is low. Second most complaint is having to fight the same people over and over because the population is low.
Are these people the evil meanies that your imagination is filled with? Maybe join hero games and actually find out, because when I see them talk about pvp... they seem a whole lot more fun-minded than you. For you it seems to be more about ego than anything.
Sorry, but being repeatedly farmed in PvP is also a significant obstacle. There are plenty of folks that would like to engage in PvP on a casual basis. Lower-level Hero Games used to let me engage in that sort of thing, but I would always stop when hitting top tier because I disliked being farmed by the same expert PvPer again and again.
Again, people seem to be running on this myth that pvp is full of big meen experts that just want to farm the same person over and over. It's not. The only person being consistently targeted in BASH for example is the person leading the score board, and if you're winning you don't really have much room to complain about people coming after you.
If your issue is that you have a weak build, then those same pvpers you seem hell bent on characterizing as evil are the people who would happily jump at the chance to help you make your build better while maintaining as many of the qualities about it that you like. You'd be surprised how much of your "theme" you can maintain while stuffing in some added survivability. If you stubbornly refuse to change your flimsy build.. got news for ya buddy, your friends in your private queue are gonna be one shotting you as well. How long before you start calling them "expert pvpers".
The most significant obstacle to getting people into hero games is the que bug. After that, it's this myth that pvp is full of evil meenies. Of course, I know that's not just this game... any game you go to the people who lose a lot always have some big explanation for their losses being caused by someone else's moral failing.
well why make a PQ for pvp if the map will just kick you?
Because it wouldn't?
You see the kick bug happens when all 10 people don't join at the same time. I think I've told you that before. For example if 8 people get it to pop it will kick people, if 10 people queue up roughly the same time and get it to pop it will not kick people.
The "elite" PvP'ers aren't going to be happy with any system such as private queues that allow new or inexperienced players to avoid them. To them, the point of increasing player participation in PvP is to supply more grist for the e-peen mill.
Seems legit... But really that remark kinda hurt.
There are some people who will pick on new players as easy wins but please don't loop people like me who only really do PvP in CO with these people. I wouldn't call myself an elite pvp'er but I would think I know a lot about it compared to any other part of the game which is why I feel this is somehow directed at people like me.
My builds are made to be able to kill anything with the use of ego sleep I can atleast in some way allow people to be farmed less by specific people. The thing is that most people consider PvP as BASH where coPvP has rules against spawn killing before forms are put on and farming the easy kills. As soon as someone starts going against the rules people will go after this person.
Sorry, but being repeatedly farmed in PvP is also a significant obstacle. There are plenty of folks that would like to engage in PvP on a casual basis. Lower-level Hero Games used to let me engage in that sort of thing, but I would always stop when hitting top tier because I disliked being farmed by the same expert PvPer again and again.
So join the community and get to know the people in PvP, get to know who to try to avoid and who will play dirty. Know who you can ask for help if someone is griefing / harassing / farming you in some way.The problem is you are referring to BASH and most likely BASH in the less populated times when there is usually one active PvP'er and some random new guy and it just ends up being awkward. It's a little more forgiving in BASH if you join up at times when there are 10 or more people in there.
when I see them talk about pvp... they seem a whole lot more fun-minded than you. For you it seems to be more about ego than anything.
This is the thing, a lot of the people who actually do PvP don't at all have an over the top ego. In fact I can kill people who you would think have an over the top ego many times and they don't even get that annoyed about it. Even people like messiah doesn't expect to win every fight, although he'll want to make up for a loss after losing even if it's in anyway way possible he doesn't expect to be a god among mortals when in PvP. If you think of the AT's and people with pretty funny builds who PvP they are some of the nicest people who you'll meet in the game and will never complain about things yet they still play what they find fun and don't ruin it for themselves by blaming other people when they die.
The most significant obstacle to getting people into hero games is the que bug. After that, it's this myth that pvp is full of evil meenies. Of course, I know that's not just this game... any game you go to the people who lose a lot always have some big explanation for their losses being caused by someone else's moral failing.
I never said they were evil meenies, by the way. I understand that you are being defensive because sometimes folks say that. I did not. Please don't lump me in with that group.
I simply would like to PvP against people with builds not really set up for PvP. It's fun and surprising, you see a wider range of powers and strategies.
Well-meaning people may differ, after all. Don't get me wrong.
I simply would like to PvP against people with builds not really set up for PvP.
What an interesting thing to say. Without defining "set up for PvP" this could be taken a lot of ways. The way I'm taking it? Once all those pve builds get into pvp, the only surprise they're gonna find is how wildly unbalanced they are against each other... and that's when people slowly start making their way to the powerhouse.
What an interesting thing to say. Without defining "set up for PvP" this could be taken a lot of ways. The way I'm taking it? Once all those pve builds get into pvp, the only surprise they're gonna find is how wildly unbalanced they are against each other... and that's when people slowly start making their way to the powerhouse.
The thing is that more things are viable in PvP than people think, heck if PvE was at all as hard as it should be in end game people would want to be using the best possible set up for dealing top DPS within their specific theme still. As an example of a new game, in wildstar there is an "optimal" settup for each class for specific things but AMP wise (specs that you can't change whenever) there is certainly optimal builds that are pretty much best for dps in any situation, the only change they do is changing aoe damage to single target damage. So pretty much what I am trying to say is that other games are technically just as unballenced as CO is within each class, the only difference is that in other games there is not a shared bunch of buffs that every class uses when in CO that is the case.
There are technically about 14 or so "classes" in CO PvP which then each have variations. Each one of the classses however would use MD and ego surge, most likely they'll use ascension and unbreakable or resurgence as well unless there is a need for the extra attack or utility power.
So roughbearmattach... If you stray away from this and attempt to PvP with people you consider to not use any of these types of builds how exactly are you going to judge that? It isn't exactly a measurable thing unless you are going to just be telling people not to use teleport / smoke grenade type stealth and only use one AD. Then all of a sudden you will be finding you are limiting people more. Or is what you want something where everyone in PvP knows each other and will balance their builds out where they don't have any want to win but instead so that they give the other team "a chance." Would you really trust everyone to not use specific things, easier to use things, things that people usually find more fun to use as they are generally better.
I have a toon that uses rising knee and demolish, I have 6k hp and only one AD. I do however have both EM and smoke grenade so I am still viable in PvP and can get the upper hand on people to initiate a stun lock.
Spinnytop used to PvP all the time on their less than 5k hp power armour themed toon which too be honest wasn't half as good as an AT. Like it was squishier than a fist AT and hit less damage than a glacier. He went into PvP with it expecting to lose mind you but it's just an example of the kind of thing you seem to be talking about.
It's a big question "what is a theme" because I can easily explain how my techno genius ice imp can do all of the stuff he can do. Someone could even make their theme "changes to whatever someone's counter is" and make some unbeatable super tank to PvP with.
The "elite" PvP'ers aren't going to be happy with any system such as private queues that allow new or inexperienced players to avoid them. To them, the point of increasing player participation in PvP is to supply more grist for the e-peen mill.
Never came across "elitist" pvpers in CO . The elitists in CO tend to be RPers. And before people start going BLAH BLAH BLAH notice mah Primus page tis is a RPer speaking ( hell I even went to CoH conventions as Nepht... pics in primus :P) .
No the PvPers in CO tend to be INSANE AS A BUCKET OF BADGERS and will hunt down the weak like a pack of feral wolves but elitist no way. Most of them tend to be the most friendly people in CO ( when they aint farming you that is :P ).
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The important thing that keeps getting overlooked is that there isn't a flawless transition from PVE to PVP, to make PVP more appealling to players who have already made investments in their character builds with accordance to PVE and for the longest time, have been content with those builds.
For any PVE'er who wants to commit a new character to PVP with a build specifically intended for PVP, this isn't an issue. The issue lies with players who would prefer to use their existing characters, especially those who have already made significant progress in levels, not wanting to retcon their powers just to "qualify" for PVP as opposed to enjoying full freedom and flexibility in their builds that are 100% compatible with the PVE content.
It's easy to tell someone to head to the PH and "fix" their build for PVP without realizing that sometimes retconning isn't always an available option nor is it a free thing to do each and every time.
I've played two other MMOs that have PVP gamemodes, namely RIFT and Guild Wars. Both games allow for easy, flawless transitioning from PVE to PVP and vice versa. There wasn't a need to use a retcon token or spend a huge amount of resources deconstructing a build either in those games when switching from one gamemode to the other. Yeah, I get that the player populations in those games a far bigger than what we have in CO, but the point stands that the easy transition contributes in making the other gamemode much more accessible and appealing.
For any PVE'er who wants to commit a new character to PVP with a build specifically intended for PVP, this isn't an issue. The issue lies with players who would prefer to use their existing characters, especially those who have already made significant progress in levels, not wanting to retcon their powers just to "qualify" for PVP as opposed to enjoying full freedom and flexibility in their builds that are 100% compatible with the PVE content.
But almost any build can be compatible with PvE content... Unless you are going to take a super squishy 4.9k hp build using congress of selves in tank role with CC and other threat stuff then spam it on gravitar or frosticus you can't really go far wrong with being 100% compatable / viable in it.
Taking any of the PvP stuff that is kind of needed currently to counter other builds such as MD will only help you in PvE. Thing is it's one less power that someone could use for something stupidly random but using MD would make you stronger and it's not like it goes against any theme on the surface of things anyway. That is unless your character's theme is to be a statue / wall and never moves therefore will never dodge anything.
GW2's PvP arena mode allows you to auto level to the max level and get gear. It's almost like a separate game within the game. It's WvWvW is viable for random lesser built people purely because it's possible to gank in it easily, you can go around in a big group of people. However any actual PvP built team of 4 or so people would be able to take down 20+ or these types of non PvP build people.
In rift there were specific builds namely I remember some saboteur builds which could be used to easily get scores like 40-2 in BG's. A friend got 60 kills without any deaths a few times due to purely being built for PvP with the best gear on at the time.
Not to mention rift and GW2 being two of the games made purely to try beating WoW, they had a lot put into them to contend with it. MMO wise they are nothing like CO.
Well I emphasizing on how easy transitioning between PVE and PVP for those two games is handled, not so much on the specifics behind their actual PVP mechanics.
In RIFT you played a class with access to three sub-classes for each class, at least early on during the time that I played. I don't really remember the specifics behind customization of skills going to PVP from PVE but I do remember it was much easier than CO's retcon system. I never explored GW2 but did play some GW1 PVP. In GW1 PVP you're able to customize your skill bar either for PVE or PVP on the fly, much like customizing your trading card deck for either casual or tournament play.
The point I'm getting at is the transitioning from PVE to PVP and how this game handles it. It needs to be something seamless and comfortable in order to get more players interested in PVP. This isn't really the case for CO.
In RIFT you played a class with access to three sub-classes for each class, at least early on during the time that I played. I don't really remember the specifics behind customization of skills going to PVP from PVE but I do remember it was much easier than CO's retcon system. I never explored GW2 but did play some GW1 PVP. In GW1 PVP you're able to customize your skill bar either for PVE or PVP on the fly, much like customizing your trading card deck for either casual or tournament play.
The point I'm getting at is the transitioning from PVE to PVP and how this game handles it. It needs to be something seamless and comfortable in order to get more players interested in PVP. This isn't really the case for CO.
Ah well GW1 wasn't exactly an MMO however you could indeed change your powers in and out whenever and could even make a PvP only character. Rift was slightly cheaper time to G wise to respec than CO meaning it is/was easier to respec however it's not really the same sort of MMO as CO.
I find the biggest reason for the transitioning being odd is because there isn't enough challenging mechanics in CO that force more complex builds and higher DPS. If someone needs to refine their build for PvE content it'd give them a taste of what PvP is like in CO where you will most likely be required to test a lot of different settups to find what works for the build you want to use. No real testing is needed in a PvE build, you could walk out in almost anything that has the basics and be able to do most if not all of it without much problem.
Also a big reason you probably found PvP in rift a much nicer transition is because their community was much much much bigger than CO's is now alongside their matchmaking system which meant starting players who were just getting into PvP will be matched up against people similar to them. CO doesn't have this and if it did it wouldn't work due to the amount of people who play it. If you were to randomly be placed in with anyone most likely there will be someone with a reflect based build that heals itself on damaging meaning it can pretty much become unkillable against people who can't counter it meaning he'd just take on all of the new players at once CO style.
I know I strayed from the point again a little there however I still feel that this has a lot of relevance to your point.
A PvP build will do fine if not better than a lot of PvE builds in PvE, the only reason it isn't the same the other way around is because what you are considering a "PvE build" is in fact just a casual not so tested / refined themed fun build. Something I would truly consider a PvE build would be a frosti / gravitar tank where the best tanks can still work perfectly find in PvP especially ZA. The only actual PvE builds / powers I would expect not to work are the purely stationary ones which wouldn't move enough really for PvP. In other MMO's especially the more harcore content in WildStar as an example people hate using stationary things in PvE as just like in PvP they have to move a lot. Something which despite having travel powers and things in this game we don't really have to do especially on boss fights.
I totally understand the idea that toons which aren't gimped are viable in PvP.
My toons routinely use Ego Surge, Ascension, spammable conviction, etc.
Still, my experience at single PvP duels and top tier PvP like BASH (and Lava Temple when it used to run) is generally getting stomped quickly, over and over. It's hard to even develop a strategy when you don't get to execute any attacks.
Other people report the same thing, frequently. I appreciate the offers of friendly PvP--I occasionally take people up on them. But even then, the friendly PvPer often steamrolls my toon in a moment and then says, "Thanks, good fight." These experiences make folks like me disengage from PvP more and more.
A ranking system, where you could choose to fight higher than your rank, but not lower, would resolve some of this issue.
Offering the advice of "make a better build and keep trying" doesn't work for the casual PvPer.
All this aside, fixing the queue for Hero Games would be the single most important action to get PvP going again. At least in lower-tier team duels, you can actually get practice.
Comments
I don't think anyone asked for any balance changes to fix PvP. Any of the balance issues I ever end up stating are technically bugs and mess up PvE ballenece even more than it could ever do PvP wise. The reason for this is because in PvP people can counter pretty much anything.
Fact is you've misunderstood that this thread isn't asking for balance, this is hardly an issue in coPvP.
As to the nonsense of seeing no recent powers added I can tell you that you are wrong. We've seen new laser sword powers and new mind powers, we've also had rimefire added as well as a new team wide force buff maintain power. These were added before Crush left to go to the NeverWinter team however. We are supposed to have some guys on the current Cryptic North team who are willing to work on new powers however this is still a mystery.
FYI I don't know any hero game with better PvP than CO. DCUO has very sticky gameplay and is basically just about grinding, clearly made for the console. Even compared to most new fantasy games like Wildstar I'd say CO's PvP is a lot more thrilling. I don't know any game which has the same speed of combat that CO has and I don't know any that stretches the gameplay into the full 3D space instead of across a flat leveled ground. In CO PvP you can jump anywhere to using the world to your advantage to the point it almost ends up feeling like a shooter, you can't do that on many other games.
The thing is with CO is it's community is very small, this means that certain "trolls" or as you call them "anti-social players" can stand out much more than they would elsewhere. But go onto any other game and you see these people throughout littered about the place, just no one takes notice of them so much. The difference is with PvP to something like PvE, if another player gets cocky you can do something about it at some point.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Only game that I can think of that does all those things better is Gunz 2: The Second Duel... but that game is not about super heroes u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ah yeah gunz has always done it pretty well but yeah it's not super heroes and not really the same type of game.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Balance exists as an issue with build disparity. Everyone knows that cookie cutter exists in PVP, that is if you want to be on a competitive edge. Anyone who purely builds with a thematic focus and casually so isn't automatically going be on par with people who have built specifically for PVP with the metagame in mind. Let's not pretend that the opposite is true. Let's not conveniently ignore this. It's a very huge factor as to why the PVP community remains as a small niche and probably why the devs aren't bothering.
The thread is about fixing the broken PvP. Can you look me in the eyes and tell me that balance isn't a big part of maintaining any part of it?
Sorry, I didn't say what I meant. I meant that we haven't seen any new power sets, only minor revamps to existing power sets here and there...
I'm not responding to PvP in CO, I'm responding to PvP games in general as I've seen them over the last two decades.
It's not about cockiness, it's about people who get off on the schadenfreud of the misery of other players. Targeting the same person and killing them repeatedly for the sole purpose of making them rage quit. That's the kind of behavior that drives players away from a game, especially new players. Our community is too small to provide a safe haven for people like that.
I'd rather see work being done on fresh pve zones and new whole new power sets than work done on a minor part of the game that was only ever sloppily tacked on by Cryptic in an attempt to hedge its bets...
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
You helped my PvE Builds with this!
My Kung Fu ARMADILLO character will take advadage of both Lighting Reflexes and Armadillo Secondaries
It will be so awesome, even his gear will fit his Theme :biggrin:
The main part of the power which is the copy and pasted part for similar powers works propperly with unbreakable. It's the extra part that Crush added on which is the part that consumes the DOT stacks. The damage from this isn't affected by unbreakable, this is not intended. Fact is that a super tank using invuln and perma active defenses to be immortal as I described earlier could use this as a burst to get if I remember correctly around 30-40k as it's max burst when all conditions are in place to achieve the damage. This is the best build currently in CO PvP as for being a solo player goes. This build is able to be countered rather easy to not be able to kill anything however you probably wont be able to kill it doing this. I found if you just keep standing behind LOS whenever stacks start to build up too fast and staying further than 50ft away you can easily make it so they never get enough DOT stacks on you to be able to burst. This is an example of where you can counter any power combo in coPvP.
(to others)
I would like someone to tell me what they believe the "FOTM" or "cookie cutter" they believe to be are. Because there is actually a lot more viriety in builds in PvP than you would think.
Fact is that things like AOPM are not so much used because they are "better" I've found most people use it as it's easier. You don't have to think about energy when making the build, you can pretty much use anything with it and super stats anything at all. The reason you see so many using this in PvP despite it not giving the best damage or defense is because it's by far the easiest thing to use. As for passives I'd say there are only one or two that truly could be considered "less viable" in PvP due to the sacrifice in damage / defense not being worth what you get. Example of one of these being PFF which lacks balance just as much in PvE, even more so if you want to consider it for a frosti tank.
I've said this so many times, there is very little things that are "must haves" in PvP. However the things that are must haves are utility / support powers such as MD / conviction (I've used builds that don't use conviction a few times in PvP however) / MSA (it's possible to build away from it for example not using int but pure con with the darkness unlock). Funny thing is I just gave examples of where you could use other options in "competitive PvP builds" MD is only the one big must have for me as it's the only way to truly counter SS / SR / UR type burst damage as well as ego surge -> high damaging combo type burst damage where unbreakable wouldn't give enough to stop it.
Generally when making a build I try to include MD / ego surge / conviction / MSA right away on the build to give me a 4 things that will work with how a spec my characters (very high int). I believe that these 4 powers are the only way I could be considered using a cookie cutter, I do this so I don't have such a hard time making more interesting damage combo's. SR hits a lot of damage however I don't truly see that many people in PvP using it currently for various reasons. UR is of course one you'll see a lot however it's damage still only goes to about 20k with electric form on a super squishy, not truly a massive amount of damage when you think about it. 2GM is hardly used in actual PvP builds currently due to it being easy to counter with active defense cycling.
So what truly is a cookie cutter or FOTM in PvP currently, is it just these few buffs and obvious spec choices that mean you can't use variety in PvP?
FYI I do not consider balance to be as high on the issues list in PvP than other things. The balance issues in PvP are almost exactly the same as PvE.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
It's whatever build just beat me in a duel.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm pretty sure the examples given were stuff like MD and Conviction and nobody was trying to make the point that every single power had the same balance in pve as it did in pvp.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Well of course as for CC in general the balance is totally different in PvP and PvE as in PvE people consider it rather underpowered / pointless / ruined. Force geyser could be considered "OP" in PvP as it's one of the most reliable knocks and is 100ft both of which don't really matter much in PvE. Other CC's that are called OP are ego sleep which breaks in one hit so is considered pointless again in PvE (I actually found it really useful for speed running jack fool however, I'm sure there are other areas of PvE where it can be of use), sonic device is also considered OP in PvP due to it being able to go onto a 100ft attack making it technically a 100ft stun that you don't have to waste any time charging / activating. The stun doesn't really work on AoE meaning once again it's not considered so good for PvE also the fact it's 100ft doesn't really matter at all in PvE.
I was mainly referring to all the buff type powers, things like CC that is considered underpowered in PvE is still one of the most important things in any PvP build. Same goes for being able to move while charging something and having a power 100ft over it being only 50ft. You could argue that the second one there is mainly due to the game being too easy though, in WildStar not being able to move while casting an ability makes it much less wanted for team fights in PvE. Also if npc's were hard enough or actually needed to be interrupted at specific times CC would also be very useful and you would want the most reliable CC there is so force geyser would actually become a rather useful power in PvE as well.
So I give to you that the balance in these areas is only considered different due to PvE being so much easier and not having a need for any of the movement / range / cc / debuff type things that PvP builds need to counter other builds.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
This is very true and the first priority should be the Private Queue option.
The senario below happens quite often with random queues.
Let us look our super heroes. (villains?)
Vs.
Team2: Superman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine, Alucard
The teams above is quite unbalanced as team2 will crush team1 in a heartbeat.
This is where the Private Queue comes in. Instead of random que, people will advertise via pvp chat channel and create a private que.
Players will communicate and attempt to balance the teams!
Devs don't even have to lift a finger for power balance when the players are balancing the teams as a whole.
This is why the very first step of PvP balance is to create a "Private Queue" option. Give players chance to balance each others' teams before entering a PvP match.
My last game foray was in the now defunct City of Heroes, which had really fun PvP since you could do team games, the pace was super fast and there were rewards toward the end...and ladders and so on. Now, I was bad/average at best but it was fun zooming around and attacking people.
I queued for some of the HERO Games stuff here and nothing ever happened. I'd be willing to get an equip spec for some of my builds if I understood the system...or if there were Arenas (which I understand are a non-factor) or whatnot.
See me ingame under the following secret identities:
Amelie Layclaire - Lightning and Wind (40)
Solution Five - Gadgets and Subterfuge (40)
Dodgeball Kara - Support and Ebon Ruin (40)
Relentless Pursuit - Fire and Force (35)
Rear Window - Homage - Icy Disposition (20)
Teaming with @shottymario and hoping to meet you all ingame.
You don't need private queues for any of that.
You might want to consider those Team Duels... you remember.. the ones everyone was so hype about when they first came out? Same difference, and you even get to pick the location of the fight.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I should have been more clear. What I meant is that kind of unbalanced team senario happens in Stronghold, UTC and King of the Hill matches.
I know what you meant. And I'm pointing out that you already have private pvp queues... and they're called Team Duels. Oh but silly me, since you so badly want to pvp with your friends I'm sure you're doing Team Duels with them every day already.
Private Queues would not save the hero games, for the same reason that alerts did not save lairs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Team duels and Hero Games are quite different. Hero games have more than 1 objective unlike Team duels and tend to last much longer.
I'm not talking about Private Queues saving anything, I'm suggesting that the Private Queues will proivde players opportunities to balance a possible unfair team composition.
What we have attempted before was that 10 PvPers gathered in Millennium City and formed two teams. Then, the two teams queued simultaneously, hoping to start a hero game of their choice (similar to NemCon queue).
However, if there was someone that had already randomly queued for everything, the whole premade setup would break upon entering the PvP zone. (because you had 11 peopel total: 10 people Premade + Some Random player) <-- results in broken teams.
All I'm saying is that if Devs gave us some kind of lobby system that allows team leaders to organize each others teams, that would be a big step forward in reviving Hero Games.
I still do not believe Private Queues would be a step in the right direction since most people would want to queue up with their friends and/or SG mates. That normally leads to two teams that are even more lopsided than before since people will have extremely similar builds (not all the time, but it's really not uncommon for people who associate with each other will either have certain heartless builds that people mention sometimes or themed builds that don't stand much of a chance).
Even in team duels when we tried a draft pick, it didn't matter how "even" we tried to make the teams. A single person was all it took to make the fights too one-sided.
This kinda thing happened in a team duels a few times too. For example when we did the 4v5 with me, kai, green and nicki on the 4. You can see it here.
2x AOPM in support role with 2x maxed DPS PvP builds it's a pretty painful thing to watch.
I wouldn't really say any game has truly balanced PvP however, even those that are purely PvP. The thing I've argued a lot is that there are many more options in CO PvP for what you can use than in many other games. Looking back on my old videos it looks like I didn't even used to use any AD at all which is kinda funny. This was back before dodge was nerfed and MD's advantage was buffed mind you.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
This, I agree with you. I've created a completely lopsided matches before in SH because I was the only healer in the match. I could keep Raza alive for the whole 45minutes duration and keep my teammates up while they are beating up Ironclad.
To avoid this kind of unfairness, the other team should've brought a healer to the match OR I needed switch characters to a non-healer role.
Private Queues won't solve everything, but I believe it will at least alleviate some of these problems.
I'm more focusing on small fixes such as implementation of "Private Queues", instead of waiting for a complete power overhaul. (ex: all powers change their effectiveness in Hero Games etc...)
"To change the world, start with one step."
I still don't see power choice so much of a problem in Hero Games, things like mini mines and fury of the dragon are probably almost worse in PvE than in PvP. There doesn't need to be any differences made between PvP and PvE, things like mini mines generally should crit again and maybe mini mines could have it's damage increased by about 10%, this would be a change that creates more options in PvE just as much as PvP. That was just an example by the way, not actually saying they should do that over other things.
Private queue would hurt the queues IMHO. Sure you could put it together but who is going to queue up publically when other people are trying to make a private queue. It's not like the community is big enough to expect people to be privately queuing 24/7.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
This is a whole different problem and the reason why people need to communicate.
As of right now, public queues are quite dead. If someone starts forming PvP teams via Private Queue, they should advertise so that other people can join or invite. (coPVP channel)
Also, the random queues will likely result in broken teams anyway, we can already see this in PvE where random Fire & Ice queue tend to have much tougher time defeating the bosses.
But, you are right, if the "Private Queue" option is implemented, the chance of getting a Hero Game match for people who do not wish to participate in Premade group will be close to 0. (BASH maybe the only exception)
The Private Queue idea focuses more on Team Balance issue.
"Not enough PvPers" Vs. "Balanced Teams" are two separate issues.
If you truly embrace Theme, then you embrace the notion that some heroes are more powerful than others, and that the weaker heroes would have a tough time going head to head with those more powerful ones.
If you demand that all players, regardless of theme, be equal, then you do not truly embrace Theme.
Need help creating a hero who uses a theme but is also strong enough to fight other heroes? Got some bad news for you... you know those PvPers you keep calling bad names all the time and blaming for the downfall of everything? They're the only ones who can help you accomplish that ~_^ But if you ask nicely they totally will
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I think private queues would be a great idea for folks to get their feet wet in pvp and practice.
I remember City of Heroes had such a system via the Arena system, which worked quite well and was fun when they fixed THEIR own kick bug.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Unfortunately the end result would be that people never go beyond getting their feet wet. The public pool would be abandoned, meaning pvp would appear to new players to be even deader, and the only remaining pvp would be private groups of people who will only play with their friends and shun anyone who's "too good" or "wins too much".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
*scratches head* I don't remember it working that well. I knwo quite a few groups had personal fight nights going, but especially after the i12 PvP revamp PvP went from a dried up occasionally active husk to a bleached bone skeleton miles away from any oasis.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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That way, Hero Games could be organized around ranking, rather than FF vs. AT.
I love PvP, but I'm not great at it. It's super fun to engage in PvP with folks of similar skill level, but incredibly unfun to be farmed by experts. Back-and-forth battles that take a few minutes, when you aren't sure how it's going to go get my blood pumping. Getting curb-stomped in 20-30 seconds, followed by "good game" make me queue up for alerts.
"Just keep at it until you get better." I get that, but simply being defeated over and over with almost no time to move or use powers is a major disincentive.
"Well, guess you just aren't suited to PvP." I get that, too, and that contributes to people not doing PvP.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
This is the part where I point out that the population of pvpers is too small to support segregation
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That solution would work, too, Gradii.
Fixing the queue kick bug is the top priority though.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Nobody would ever feel comfortable about pvping with randoms though. If anything, the "gameplay shock" would become even worse, as people would become comfortable with the "lets go easy on each other" environment in their private queues... then join the public hero games and realize they haven't been preparing for them at all.
Right now the only thing getting in the way of new players joining pvp is the que bug.
With private ques, pvp would become more like trying to become part of an RP clique, complete with catty remarks about your build if it doesn't match all their standards of fairness.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sorry, but being repeatedly farmed in PvP is also a significant obstacle. There are plenty of folks that would like to engage in PvP on a casual basis. Lower-level Hero Games used to let me engage in that sort of thing, but I would always stop when hitting top tier because I disliked being farmed by the same expert PvPer again and again.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Who are you even talking about? Who are these "elite" pvpers? It's almost as if you know they don't exist and that's why you put that word in qoutation marks.
Chief complaint among veteran pvpers is difficulty in getting ques to pop because the population is low. Second most complaint is having to fight the same people over and over because the population is low.
Are these people the evil meanies that your imagination is filled with? Maybe join hero games and actually find out, because when I see them talk about pvp... they seem a whole lot more fun-minded than you. For you it seems to be more about ego than anything.
Again, people seem to be running on this myth that pvp is full of big meen experts that just want to farm the same person over and over. It's not. The only person being consistently targeted in BASH for example is the person leading the score board, and if you're winning you don't really have much room to complain about people coming after you.
If your issue is that you have a weak build, then those same pvpers you seem hell bent on characterizing as evil are the people who would happily jump at the chance to help you make your build better while maintaining as many of the qualities about it that you like. You'd be surprised how much of your "theme" you can maintain while stuffing in some added survivability. If you stubbornly refuse to change your flimsy build.. got news for ya buddy, your friends in your private queue are gonna be one shotting you as well. How long before you start calling them "expert pvpers".
The most significant obstacle to getting people into hero games is the que bug. After that, it's this myth that pvp is full of evil meenies. Of course, I know that's not just this game... any game you go to the people who lose a lot always have some big explanation for their losses being caused by someone else's moral failing.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Because it wouldn't?
You see the kick bug happens when all 10 people don't join at the same time. I think I've told you that before. For example if 8 people get it to pop it will kick people, if 10 people queue up roughly the same time and get it to pop it will not kick people.
Seems legit... But really that remark kinda hurt.
There are some people who will pick on new players as easy wins but please don't loop people like me who only really do PvP in CO with these people. I wouldn't call myself an elite pvp'er but I would think I know a lot about it compared to any other part of the game which is why I feel this is somehow directed at people like me.
My builds are made to be able to kill anything with the use of ego sleep I can atleast in some way allow people to be farmed less by specific people. The thing is that most people consider PvP as BASH where coPvP has rules against spawn killing before forms are put on and farming the easy kills. As soon as someone starts going against the rules people will go after this person.
So join the community and get to know the people in PvP, get to know who to try to avoid and who will play dirty. Know who you can ask for help if someone is griefing / harassing / farming you in some way.The problem is you are referring to BASH and most likely BASH in the less populated times when there is usually one active PvP'er and some random new guy and it just ends up being awkward. It's a little more forgiving in BASH if you join up at times when there are 10 or more people in there.
This is the thing, a lot of the people who actually do PvP don't at all have an over the top ego. In fact I can kill people who you would think have an over the top ego many times and they don't even get that annoyed about it. Even people like messiah doesn't expect to win every fight, although he'll want to make up for a loss after losing even if it's in anyway way possible he doesn't expect to be a god among mortals when in PvP. If you think of the AT's and people with pretty funny builds who PvP they are some of the nicest people who you'll meet in the game and will never complain about things yet they still play what they find fun and don't ruin it for themselves by blaming other people when they die.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I never said they were evil meenies, by the way. I understand that you are being defensive because sometimes folks say that. I did not. Please don't lump me in with that group.
I simply would like to PvP against people with builds not really set up for PvP. It's fun and surprising, you see a wider range of powers and strategies.
Well-meaning people may differ, after all. Don't get me wrong.
Mrhinkypinnk offered much better advice.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
What an interesting thing to say. Without defining "set up for PvP" this could be taken a lot of ways. The way I'm taking it? Once all those pve builds get into pvp, the only surprise they're gonna find is how wildly unbalanced they are against each other... and that's when people slowly start making their way to the powerhouse.
I offered the exact same advice.. guess some people gotta be told things twice before they'll stick.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The thing is that more things are viable in PvP than people think, heck if PvE was at all as hard as it should be in end game people would want to be using the best possible set up for dealing top DPS within their specific theme still. As an example of a new game, in wildstar there is an "optimal" settup for each class for specific things but AMP wise (specs that you can't change whenever) there is certainly optimal builds that are pretty much best for dps in any situation, the only change they do is changing aoe damage to single target damage. So pretty much what I am trying to say is that other games are technically just as unballenced as CO is within each class, the only difference is that in other games there is not a shared bunch of buffs that every class uses when in CO that is the case.
There are technically about 14 or so "classes" in CO PvP which then each have variations. Each one of the classses however would use MD and ego surge, most likely they'll use ascension and unbreakable or resurgence as well unless there is a need for the extra attack or utility power.
So roughbearmattach... If you stray away from this and attempt to PvP with people you consider to not use any of these types of builds how exactly are you going to judge that? It isn't exactly a measurable thing unless you are going to just be telling people not to use teleport / smoke grenade type stealth and only use one AD. Then all of a sudden you will be finding you are limiting people more. Or is what you want something where everyone in PvP knows each other and will balance their builds out where they don't have any want to win but instead so that they give the other team "a chance." Would you really trust everyone to not use specific things, easier to use things, things that people usually find more fun to use as they are generally better.
I have a toon that uses rising knee and demolish, I have 6k hp and only one AD. I do however have both EM and smoke grenade so I am still viable in PvP and can get the upper hand on people to initiate a stun lock.
Spinnytop used to PvP all the time on their less than 5k hp power armour themed toon which too be honest wasn't half as good as an AT. Like it was squishier than a fist AT and hit less damage than a glacier. He went into PvP with it expecting to lose mind you but it's just an example of the kind of thing you seem to be talking about.
It's a big question "what is a theme" because I can easily explain how my techno genius ice imp can do all of the stuff he can do. Someone could even make their theme "changes to whatever someone's counter is" and make some unbeatable super tank to PvP with.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Never came across "elitist" pvpers in CO . The elitists in CO tend to be RPers. And before people start going BLAH BLAH BLAH notice mah Primus page tis is a RPer speaking ( hell I even went to CoH conventions as Nepht... pics in primus :P) .
No the PvPers in CO tend to be INSANE AS A BUCKET OF BADGERS and will hunt down the weak like a pack of feral wolves but elitist no way. Most of them tend to be the most friendly people in CO ( when they aint farming you that is :P ).
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
For any PVE'er who wants to commit a new character to PVP with a build specifically intended for PVP, this isn't an issue. The issue lies with players who would prefer to use their existing characters, especially those who have already made significant progress in levels, not wanting to retcon their powers just to "qualify" for PVP as opposed to enjoying full freedom and flexibility in their builds that are 100% compatible with the PVE content.
It's easy to tell someone to head to the PH and "fix" their build for PVP without realizing that sometimes retconning isn't always an available option nor is it a free thing to do each and every time.
I've played two other MMOs that have PVP gamemodes, namely RIFT and Guild Wars. Both games allow for easy, flawless transitioning from PVE to PVP and vice versa. There wasn't a need to use a retcon token or spend a huge amount of resources deconstructing a build either in those games when switching from one gamemode to the other. Yeah, I get that the player populations in those games a far bigger than what we have in CO, but the point stands that the easy transition contributes in making the other gamemode much more accessible and appealing.
But almost any build can be compatible with PvE content...
Taking any of the PvP stuff that is kind of needed currently to counter other builds such as MD will only help you in PvE. Thing is it's one less power that someone could use for something stupidly random but using MD would make you stronger and it's not like it goes against any theme on the surface of things anyway. That is unless your character's theme is to be a statue / wall and never moves therefore will never dodge anything.
GW2's PvP arena mode allows you to auto level to the max level and get gear. It's almost like a separate game within the game. It's WvWvW is viable for random lesser built people purely because it's possible to gank in it easily, you can go around in a big group of people. However any actual PvP built team of 4 or so people would be able to take down 20+ or these types of non PvP build people.
In rift there were specific builds namely I remember some saboteur builds which could be used to easily get scores like 40-2 in BG's. A friend got 60 kills without any deaths a few times due to purely being built for PvP with the best gear on at the time.
Not to mention rift and GW2 being two of the games made purely to try beating WoW, they had a lot put into them to contend with it. MMO wise they are nothing like CO.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
In RIFT you played a class with access to three sub-classes for each class, at least early on during the time that I played. I don't really remember the specifics behind customization of skills going to PVP from PVE but I do remember it was much easier than CO's retcon system. I never explored GW2 but did play some GW1 PVP. In GW1 PVP you're able to customize your skill bar either for PVE or PVP on the fly, much like customizing your trading card deck for either casual or tournament play.
The point I'm getting at is the transitioning from PVE to PVP and how this game handles it. It needs to be something seamless and comfortable in order to get more players interested in PVP. This isn't really the case for CO.
Ah well GW1 wasn't exactly an MMO however you could indeed change your powers in and out whenever and could even make a PvP only character. Rift was slightly cheaper time to G wise to respec than CO meaning it is/was easier to respec however it's not really the same sort of MMO as CO.
I find the biggest reason for the transitioning being odd is because there isn't enough challenging mechanics in CO that force more complex builds and higher DPS. If someone needs to refine their build for PvE content it'd give them a taste of what PvP is like in CO where you will most likely be required to test a lot of different settups to find what works for the build you want to use. No real testing is needed in a PvE build, you could walk out in almost anything that has the basics and be able to do most if not all of it without much problem.
Also a big reason you probably found PvP in rift a much nicer transition is because their community was much much much bigger than CO's is now alongside their matchmaking system which meant starting players who were just getting into PvP will be matched up against people similar to them. CO doesn't have this and if it did it wouldn't work due to the amount of people who play it. If you were to randomly be placed in with anyone most likely there will be someone with a reflect based build that heals itself on damaging meaning it can pretty much become unkillable against people who can't counter it meaning he'd just take on all of the new players at once CO style.
I know I strayed from the point again a little there however I still feel that this has a lot of relevance to your point.
A PvP build will do fine if not better than a lot of PvE builds in PvE, the only reason it isn't the same the other way around is because what you are considering a "PvE build" is in fact just a casual not so tested / refined themed fun build. Something I would truly consider a PvE build would be a frosti / gravitar tank where the best tanks can still work perfectly find in PvP especially ZA. The only actual PvE builds / powers I would expect not to work are the purely stationary ones which wouldn't move enough really for PvP. In other MMO's especially the more harcore content in WildStar as an example people hate using stationary things in PvE as just like in PvP they have to move a lot. Something which despite having travel powers and things in this game we don't really have to do especially on boss fights.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
My toons routinely use Ego Surge, Ascension, spammable conviction, etc.
Still, my experience at single PvP duels and top tier PvP like BASH (and Lava Temple when it used to run) is generally getting stomped quickly, over and over. It's hard to even develop a strategy when you don't get to execute any attacks.
Other people report the same thing, frequently. I appreciate the offers of friendly PvP--I occasionally take people up on them. But even then, the friendly PvPer often steamrolls my toon in a moment and then says, "Thanks, good fight." These experiences make folks like me disengage from PvP more and more.
A ranking system, where you could choose to fight higher than your rank, but not lower, would resolve some of this issue.
Offering the advice of "make a better build and keep trying" doesn't work for the casual PvPer.
All this aside, fixing the queue for Hero Games would be the single most important action to get PvP going again. At least in lower-tier team duels, you can actually get practice.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.