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Bringing PVP out of its dark hole, some thoughts.
gradii
Posts: 11,717 Arc User
First off do not move this to suggestions. here is where it gets views.
Secondly, why another thread? because its coming from me, not someone known as an "avid pvper".
PVP in CO doesn't make sense. lets face it. HOWEVER that does not mean it should be removed, or that it can't be a fun positive thing. Heck I can think of ways to set scenarios which would make a ton of sense, such as a virtual training program.
1. Convert Acclaim rewards from pvp to questionite ore. put all pvp rewards in q store. pvp and pve now have the same rewards. plus q is convertable to zen, people who want that extra q ore can queue in for pvp! Acclaim is already given win or lose, keep it that way with q, with the most q going to those who did the best of course.
2. Give us PVP private queues. Supergroups can now queue for sg only pvp "training events"
this has RP potential as well, and a chance to pvp with only certain people one feels comfortable with.
3. Fix pvp queue bugs. I'd love to play UTC but no one queues because they know they'll be kicked.
4. Have seperate duel and team pvp modes for devices/non devices, and ringout/no ringout.
there I think I'm done for now. lets see some support for bringing pvp back to the CO masses!
when more people from the pve crowd have reason to queue for pvp, and when the option is there to pvp in teams only with friends, pvp improves for everyone.
Secondly, why another thread? because its coming from me, not someone known as an "avid pvper".
PVP in CO doesn't make sense. lets face it. HOWEVER that does not mean it should be removed, or that it can't be a fun positive thing. Heck I can think of ways to set scenarios which would make a ton of sense, such as a virtual training program.
1. Convert Acclaim rewards from pvp to questionite ore. put all pvp rewards in q store. pvp and pve now have the same rewards. plus q is convertable to zen, people who want that extra q ore can queue in for pvp! Acclaim is already given win or lose, keep it that way with q, with the most q going to those who did the best of course.
2. Give us PVP private queues. Supergroups can now queue for sg only pvp "training events"
this has RP potential as well, and a chance to pvp with only certain people one feels comfortable with.
3. Fix pvp queue bugs. I'd love to play UTC but no one queues because they know they'll be kicked.
4. Have seperate duel and team pvp modes for devices/non devices, and ringout/no ringout.
there I think I'm done for now. lets see some support for bringing pvp back to the CO masses!
when more people from the pve crowd have reason to queue for pvp, and when the option is there to pvp in teams only with friends, pvp improves for everyone.
Post edited by gradii on
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Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
if the devs did not bother to look at the previous one that was made.. then they wont look at this one either.
Good suggestions but i just dont have any hope for the devs to fix the real problems in CO, i just have little hope with the way things are going right now.
Handle:@XG3NX
Champions Online.. where we sell lockboxes by the dozen.
I still support them today.
*thumbs up*
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Good luck getting them to notice you. They ignored Caliga... I think it's pretty clear they'll ignore anyone.
My suggestion: Use team duels.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Your wrong here btw. The more players that complain the more likely it will get noticed.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
also you all seem to be interested in the L40 matches. what about everyone else?
hmm another attempt to bribe people into doing it.
You want your acclaim converted to Q and to get Q rewards for taking part NOT for winning.
where abouts in Pve do you get Q for taking part and NOT winning.
say hello to a new collection of exploit farmers in ZA because that is what you will get for providing Q for taking part.
join, go afk, collect.
bott programs should start up quickly
why make an effort when you can queue a few farming accts together and collect by doing nothing.
You are also likely to get them in the other matches too,
you may get a few people try the others until they get sick of serial deaths and stop.
queues fix them,
bugs in the games them selves fix them.
how's the a..hole quotient in Pvp chat now?
and in the behaviour?
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PvP needs a lot more done with it than just a simple new shiny button.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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How many more years before this happens?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Your start would cause more problems than solve. It would still be the same thing, except instead of empty maps it would just be full of a bunch bots that waste the people that want to PvPs time.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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The freeform system is also an inherent problem with PVP. Not everyone feels obliged to build according to a cookie-cutter template to remain competitive as opposed to full freedom in their build; being able to handle PVE without worry about being directly or indirectly bested by another player with an objectively superior build.
Would I want to see PVP continue to be improved and developed? I don't see why not. But with these fundamental issues considered I don't see it happening.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
Things posted on the PTS section should only ever be things currently in the PTS update meaning anything they've changed from the current live version.
Posting something like this in the PTS section is bound to be moved although it is a section that Lordgar will check. The problem is that I'm pretty sure lordgar isn't at all a fan of PvP and isn't likely to be inspired to put a bit of work into it although it would be nice if we could inspire him a little to atleast mention the problems there. Some of the problems that could be fixed may be hard to fix however some of them would most likely be a pretty easy fix.
To fix the kicking bug they'd need to force the 5v5 maps to only start with 10 people.
To fix the issue of no reward they could either have some sort of daily exchange mission where you can exchange a specific amount of acclaim for questionite ore. They could also just put in some things like legacy stealth sight secondary's and other legacy stuff which makes PvP much more balanced when people have them.
I don't think the game is as bad balance wise as people think, compared to other games there are many more options for what you can use as an overall build. However the AD cycling problem is one of the balance issues which goes against this, if this is fixed properly but not done over the top I don't see as much wrong with balance as people say.
PvP private queues may prove to be hard as it would be like adding a new feature in. (even if the feature is already for rampages, it would still be hard to create that again but for PvP with all the graphics and stuff)
The thing with the duel system would be a very nice feature but overall the hardest to do and least likely to see them doing even though duels are very popular not just with PvP'ers but even RP'ers and pure PvE players.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
I think it has less to do with inspiration and more to do with what's within his job scope.
If PVP-related bugs and content isn't in the job scope at all, especially if decided so by the higher-ups, that means it's pretty much dead in the water.
I have at least 71* active buddies in my buddy list that are intrested in PvP in one form or another and saying how small the population of this game is thats a large percentage :P
*yes I counted I am that anal.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
71 so that s plenty for most queues except the 2 broken ones.
are they only queuing for the Level 40's ones with the broken queues?
are they queuing for the others?
are they trying to queue at lower levels?
are they queuing?
are they waiting for better rewards?
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Intrested in it ....if Q's worked and there was less tryhards. If these things improved Q's would ping for sure.
Though I do know at least 30 active CO pvpers and thats should still be enough for Q's to ping. Basicly all the main PvPers and still the Q's dont ping most weekdays, even the pr0h br0hs arnt Q'ing these days, dueling seems to have taken over >_>
I have also have 12 buddies that like boiled cabbage. I remember stupid stuff :I
*edit* PvP isnt dead it just seems to be mostly Dueling these days.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
saying it hits on all , may result in, as I posted on pts,
check ZA, queue works fine. check other working one- queue works fine. They are wasting our time.
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71 of 2000 is about 3.5%
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Well I know almost every single PvPer in CO so Crushes claim that PvPers only made up 1% has been just proven FALSE
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My 2000 is also the lowball figure. I can take a fast census if you like
Regardless, I'd hardly call 3% an improvement
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Against popular belief there are actually many new players who come into CO, a high % of our playerbase is infact rather new players. This is a lot due to how the game is made.
Another high % in CO are the RP'ers as they don't particularly need anything more than a setting and a way to be creative with the costume creator / auras to keep them interested and able to create their own "content."
I actually believe that high level PvE players are almost as low of a % than PvP players. High level PvE players meaning people who would want to queue for rampages and various things like it.
Most of the time CO has around 300-400 people online, sometimes at peak times I'm sure we must reach 500-700 even. However the large majority of this number are fairly new players and a large amount of the rest is RP'ers.
It's down to how the game has ended up being developed into what it is now that this has happened.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
It just isn't fun because there is no chance of winning. I wish there was a flat "handicap" debuff that stacked with every win and reset upon loss, so max-min optimized players wouldn't always dominate and other players get a chance. Right now there just are not enough players to support "elite" and "noob" builds. N00bs go into PVP, get their **** kicked, and then stop playing PVP.
Another thing that would be possible to to create a map that forces people to use a become device to swap out all their powers for standardized ones and give them equal stats but let them keep their costumes. (Or I think there was a action figure map being developed...? Something like that would be good.) From a sales perspective the best thing would be to create a PVP stat/powerset become for each archetype so players can try out each archetype before they buy. Also, it'd be a challenging map because you'd never know what powersets your opponent would be using.
Now to reply to the original post:
1) I totally support PVP awards being given the same treatment that adventure pack rewards got as I don't have any acclaim. However, it doesn't quite seem fair to reward PVP with Questionite. Maybe a 2k Questionite daily mission for doing three matches?
2) This may fix the problem of n00bs failing at PVP to elites... or it might just kill PVP altogether since the only players would be doing private queues.
3) Yeah, the whole kicking thing is annoying for any map.
4)A device-only PVP mode would be cool.
Yes, I agree, pvp would be a lot more active if more people would stop being egotistical babbies that take their ball and go home when they lose
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I win plenty, and if you ask around in copvp I'm a total noob who spends 90% of their time running alerts- I have no "crew" and I didn't pay anything to win anything. Claim disputed. u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Well you did end up making a ricochet NW build which too be honest is one of the most fun / easiest to win BASH / team fights on in the game just because it allows you to move so much and hits a lot of damage. Surprised new players often use 2GM when ricochet hits arguably the same DPS, 100ft and with an aoe feature which goes great with NW.
A big problem balance wise in PvP currently is that MD is pretty much a must have due to Crush never being willing to nerf it in any way. However this isn't down to PvP it's almost like it's the way the game was designed so if someone ends up wanting to PvP this is the single power they'll have to use on every build, it's not like you're being un-creative by using it.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
this whole "I lost so I quit." Attitude is really strange to me...didn't ya'll ever hear that "practice makes perfect"?
I've been joining up for some hero games at least once a week for awhile now, though I tend to avoid BASH and ZA is usually the only one that pops...so typically it's just ZA...but I have been having fun.(team duels are another favorite, one of the SGs I'm in has been really great about making events out of that. I highly recommend it to others.)
I was actually farming for Acclaim to buy the costumes really
I liked
I DIDN'T like
I don't PvP because:
and honestly... I don't like other people Hurting my characters... (Forcase Cascade, Sonic Device, Unleashed Rage stuff) Please don't Hurt my Babies T_T
I also DON'T like when they NERF powers because of PvP when those powers are PERFECT for PvE =__=
However, I will be Glad if they Fix Heroes games (as long as it WON'T influence PvE)
Hey I may not enjoying it, but MORE POWER for you if you do
. . . just DON'T be that GUY, you know the ONE, nobody wants to be That Guy and Ruins the fun
You don't want to use md? OK. Die. You don't want nailed to the ground? Sorry, but that's a no no. Can't stand CC and would rather those advantage points go else where? Good luck with that.
I think people HAVING to take certain powers that are not the powers they would normally take in building the hero they "TRULY" want to be, turns a lot of people away from pvp.
In talking to my friends and others. Devices fall in that same category.
Basically you can't build the hero you want to be most times and be competitive.
You have to conform in some way or another. Most people can't be bothered and are very attached to their builds (Some call them themed builds) and if they can't use them as is...
Well, then pvp isn't worth it to them.
Again. IMHO, this is a design flaw with how the game is made.
Some powers are WAY better than others. Fact. To win, many are willing to use those powers. Even if there are only a handful. Meaning, there is a good chance in a room full of pvpers you will find more than half of those players with similar builds or powers, or a sliight variation at the very least. If the casual player feels there is NO CHANCE IN HELL of lasting more than a few seconds, they will not be que-ing up again for hero games. Fact.
Something needs to be done for those players, which is more of the population.
That in turn brings in more people willing to at least give pvp a try.
What that might be exactly i don't know.
If a power is broken in PvP it is broken in PvE, calling it perfect is just a cover.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Those that detest pvp.. will not conform to that thinking of "Well that's just the way it is".
They just don't pvp. And keep their beloved builds instead. Finding other things to do.
Trying to get everybody involved is the issue here. The devs need to fix the que system for everybody's sake. And just in general work on balancing powers. This will help on a lot of levels.
If the causal player can't even get into hero games... do you think he/she will not think twice about just forgetting about hero games altogether?
Matter of fact. Fix all of the bugs in this game.
That should be their #1 priority IMHO.
Yes. I made an "Ooops, pow, SURPRISE!" build... I have a hard time believing that it's some amazing build though when I watch the rest of you pvpers (and some self-described non-pvpers) who can actually stand and fight in BASH... which, if I try to do that, guess who's getting mashed into the pavement!
Everytime I hear this... it sounds like less and less of the HUGE PROBLEM that people seem to want to claim it is.
I mean.... what? OH NO! I have to take this one power that has no implications whatsoever for the theme of my character and that is also very useful in many PVE encounters!
It's not as if you activate MD and suddenly your characters starts flipping all over the place doing jackie chan wushu martial arts... you activate it, and for some number of seconds you take less damage while doing the block animation infrequently. Then you can use the rest of your 13 powers to create some intricate damage build that involves interweaving all sorts of different damage powers in a complex rotation that... does less dps than someone spamming a single power over and over u3u
srsly tho, if all it takes to do pvp is "take MD" then people are just being straight nitpicky babbies u.u
I think the real problem is actually one that hasn't been mentioned in a long time:
People play PvE, which only requires them to hit tab and then mash a button repeatedly, maybe occasionally walking backwards a few steps to avoid dying. Then they join PvP and get mashed into the pavement because it actually requires them to DO more, and they get Gameplay Shock.... which some people react to by drawing up a list of excuses for why everything is bad and the game is unfair (watch Game Grumps and Arin will give examples of this behavior frequently).
PS - BASH sux.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Indeed, I was pointing out that you had a point. PVP isn't for everybody.
We are in agreement on this matter.
How are people who inherently don't like PvP gameplay in games relevant though? There's no way PvP could ever be changed to please them.... other than by turning it into PvE u3u why even bring this up?
PS - also that "handful of powers" people keep mentioning...if you actually que for hero games, you might be surprised how big your hands need to be nowadays to carry them all .-. people have gone weird with their builds, and yes they actually win with them too.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
People want a Fix It NOW button that will make everything better and make content they have no interest in to begin with to suddenly become appealing...such a thing does not exist. Fix the bugs(revamp the rewards if you want me to get really excited!) That is the best we can hope for without them totally redoing everything...and I doubt many people want that, seeing as how it would effect PVE just as much if they did.
Just as an FYI there is a 3rd UTC map called tech arena. ;D
It's by far my favourite map in PvP. Cage arena / KOTH are also ones I like. I'm not too much of a fan of ZA unless the right people are in to create a long lasting yet still competitive fight. SH I'm not a fan of due to ascension being able to go through the turrets and the turrets bugging out currently, also the npc's were never changed to meet the new power of players so the bosses at the end are WAY too easy. BASH often turns out as a mess although there are some BASH's that can be really fun and thrilling.
I agree with you that some people do mouth off randomly and try to big themselves up by putting others down with words. However I've seen this in every aspect of every game, I've seen just as much like this happen in PvE in CO. Despite PvE in this game not being the slightest bit competitive it still happens.
Power choice wise it's only really MD. You need it to counter the other players ego surge however having ego surge on in a 5v5 situation isn't really needed if your damage is already high enough. Saying that it's not like it'd hurt to have ego surge as your active offence either. Generally speaking the way the game ended up being changed was active defences and offences were almost made as a mandatory choice for the build where you are expected to have atleast one of each on each build. I wouldn't say this is forcing someone to have powers or go away from theme at all but it's just the way the game ended up being changed.
"Theme build" is a rather vague thing to call them as it could mean any build at all. However I've used bullet beatdown on a 5k hp toon with no heals, mini mines and attack toys in PvP before. Oddly enough it works better in PvP than it does in PvE due to the stun lock and single target damage.
Nailed to the ground is a pretty important thing to get however in any kind of team PvP it is not needed if you are using a 100ft build especially if you can move while using the 100ft power. Crippling challenge isn't needed at all especially not in team fights however it can help to have it sometimes.
The thing about powers being "perfect" in PvE isn't really the right thing to say. I'd say active defence cycling makes you even more immortal in PvE than it does in PvP as unless it's a rampage boss there is no way for them to break through unbreakable.
I really do think I should do a guide or atleast something to describe the different options one has for a PvP build in CO. As I said the only things you truly need is one active defense and one active offense with atleast one heal that can be used well in combat, actually power wise currently there is a lot more choice than people think for the 1-3 main damaging ability's on a build.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Fix the que. Those that are on the fence about joining will give up easily if they can't even attempt to try hero games.
I completly forgot Tech arena, It's been THAT long, I remember that you get a Perk/Title for Destroying the Giant Crate on the center of the map :biggrin:
Unfortunately yes, you can find this Vocal Minority bragging and Harassing in PvE as well! No place is safe :S
Indeed but that's Too Cheap for me!
I tend to have only 1 Active Defence on each of my characters for the "OH CRAP" moments... EXCEPT if said characters have Support with PRE stack passives or Defensive Passives
Regen, Defiance, Invul, LR are NEAT, They make me feel like my character is a Active Defence
... PFF force you to take Field Surge which is... Horrible
...but I do have 2 characters who use 2 Active Offenses... to balance the Damage lose from the Defensive passives...? and because I can't think which last power I should take for their build .__.
Well Invuln or IDF basically makes you un-killable in PvE as it is. Unbreakable is actually bugged with invulnerable making it absorb around 1/3rd more than it actually should do for whatever reason, some error in the maths somewhere. Having 100% dodge chance without stacking any avoidance with MD gives around 50% flat damage resistance, if you have a really basic amount defence with Invuln you will already have enough to give a flat 50%. If you're one of these people who uses the defence buff from armadillo secondary's I believe that this is also flat. Warden is also on it's own separate layer.
Generally speaking all these numbers mean that if something hits you for 10k damage you first half the damage so it becomes 5k, you then half it again so 2.5k you then take off 25% due to armadillo meaning 1,875. That's a crazy damage decrease with such low defence with invuln cutting off it's flat amount as well. This is before thinking if it's an AOE attack there is an extra 20% taken off meaning the 1,875 becomes 1500. (a surprisingly neat number) If you can find a way to get this 50% decrease through somewhere else other than when MD is up you can make unbreakable able to withstand a 10k hit and heal itself through it. This is a big factor that made someone like Seraphim when using his invuln mind break rotation build pretty unkillable seeing as my max of 8k per tick SR couldn't actually break through his unbreakable and did hardly anything on his MD.
The only way to kill someone like this is to either gank him with lots of people while MD is on instead of unbreakable or burst him with a bugged ability such as mind break which isn't affected by unbreakable at all.
The same balance issue goes for PvE however the only difference is that no one really considered PvE "competitive" in any way, shape or form in it's current state.
Defiance and LR also can make someone just as unkillable. Regen less so in even in PvE where there is no trauma however if it wasn't affected by trauma it'd be on par with the others in PvP as well IMO.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Different balance!
The CO dev team is understaffed as it is, dividing their attention for balance between the two would just further stagnate the game. We haven't had a new power set in almost 3 years now and there's still a number of things that could be done, even ignoring the things that the "tech" doesn't exist for like staves.
Now, as nice as staves would be, they would require either animations potentially looking rather derpy due to varying arm lengths and hand sizes, or it would require real time inverse kinematics. I doubt anybody is left on the dev team who could implement the latter and the former would just be stupid.
But there's still room for water based powers (if you think ice counts, tell that to Aqua Lad on the Young Justice cartoon) and sonic based powers. Heck, in Cryptic's previous super hero MMO they eventually added sonic powers. Ironically, the sonic powers in COH initially gave more than just enemies headaches, players using headphones also tended to get headaches from them too.
Another problem I have with PvP is the kind of player it attracts to the game. I'm not saying all PvPers are antisocial, but no one can truthfully deny that PvP attracts antisocial players. And I use that word "antisocial" as a bit of an understatement.
Anyway point is, I'd rather see new power sets than tweaking old ones to support a dead part of the game that would only attract undesirables. I'm sorry, but the money of a player who is overly hostile toward other players is worth less than the money of a player who is friendly and helpful.
And YES there ARE friendly and helpful players in the PvP community but most of the ones I've seen are also cool with PvE and have other games with better PvP they can get their PvP fix from.
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